minimal offshore cruiser

[paladin]

Guys have asked a gazillion times for a cruising boat for minimal offshore cruising that won't break the budget. But they don't want to build an ugly boat. Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising. With points for the boat/hull design, points for aesthetics, points for the sail rig and ease of handling, points for equipment that can be excluded and cheaper solutions used....etc. The days of expensive cruisers have gone the way of the buffalo.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Guys have asked a gazillion times for a cruising boat for minimal offshore cruising that won't break the budget. But they don't want to build an ugly boat. Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising. With points for the boat/hull design, points for aesthetics, points for the sail rig and ease of handling, points for equipment that can be excluded and cheaper solutions used....etc. The days of expensive cruisers have gone the way of the buffalo.

Modern materials and methods. Probably not the dory-type boats of twenty years ago or the ferro boats of thirty years ago, but something light with low costs all round.

[paladin]

Offshore is not for open boat folks except those with a death wish.....we're talking something capable of crossing oceans if someone thinks about doing it....and even with a little effort and fortitude, circumnavigating. The lessons learned are the same for extended minimal near coastal cruising without stopping at every grocery store along the way.

[Tristan]

Offshore cruisers aside, how about minimal requirements for the individual who thinks he/she wants to do some blue water cruising. I knew Cou and Ahto Walter who did a good bit of ocean cruising in various small boats. They were a world away from most would-be blue water cruisers.

[donald branscom]

When you pass the line of demarcation the US Coast Guard will stop you and if they feel you or your craft are not seaworthy they will not let you proceed.


It has been tried by others.
I have seen craft built with 2x4's and so forth that looked ok but somehow the whole package ,you know cheap boat ,nutty kind of captain, provisions and size of boat all combined to have the Coast Guard escort the person back to the nearest marina.

And ... yes the little craft did have an American flag on it. Did not help.

Oh, and one more thing. Since when have you seen 22-23 foot 2x4's at Home Depot? HUH HUH HUH

[Hwyl]

When you pass the line of demarcation the US Coast Guard will stop you and if they feel you or your craft are not seaworthy they will not let you proceed.




No they don't, at least in my experience.

[Peerie Maa]

Offshore is not for open boat folks except those with a death wish.....we're talking something capable of crossing oceans if someone thinks about doing it....and even with a little effort and fortitude, circumnavigating. The lessons learned are the same for extended minimal near coastal cruising without stopping at every grocery store along the way.

I quite agree, here is a candidate for the death wish club:
Scotland to Iceland (http://www.uswayfarer.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=39)

[George Roberts]

Offshore cruising covers a lot of different situations.

In the Arctic one might have concerns other than hurricanes. A boat sutiable for all conditions is certainly different than a boat for a specific set of conditions.

Crew size matters. Busy hands are less likely to be bored on a trip than if one person handles all the work and the crew just sits by in the warm sun.

No, a man should select a boat that fit needs other than "offshore."

[damnyankee]

"The more you Think about it the worse it seems, when actually the hardest part is making the start." --Pete Culler, 'Pete Culler on Wooden Boats.' It's easy to come up with reasons not to do something when you want to. It's easy to say its to hard, that it cant be done, that some one else will stop you, that you don't understand what your doing. Everyone can say 'no.' Many of us who have yet to fulfill the dream of a boat face this from friends and family every day.
Lets not be those people, but instead be the people of 'yes.' Lets not think of an obstacle as a road block, but an opportunity for creative thinking, an outlet for creative endeavors.
I'm not saying that we need blind optimism. Boat building can be complex, and off shore cruising can be dangerous. But tempering optimism does not require that it be squashed. It can be done because it has been done.

Christopher

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thinking positively, following Chuck's prescription, I would envisage something somewhat on the lines of a Mini Transat boat, simplified and cheapened and perhaps crossed with, say, a Waarschip quarter tonner with a dash of Ian Oughtred and a dash of Dudley Dix.

[Hwyl]

There is a Dudley Dix boat, the Didi mini

http://www.dixdesign.com/mini-oneill4.jpg

She's an earlier generation Mini Transat boat. I'd say the latest ones are too extreme for cruising.

I had an "unfortunate experience" with a Waarschip quarter tonner (we'll save it for an over a beer discussion Andrew)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

That's the sort of idea. Minus the carbon fibre, perhaps!

A modern "Sopranino"?

I see Dudley Dix has done a mini-cruiser version:

http://www.dixdesign.com/cruiseminirig.jpg

http://www.dixdesign.com/didiminicruise.htm

I think I like it!

[paladin]

Every amateur builder has lots of time.....usually short of money. Money spent on tools is money not spent on the boat. The choice is do you want to spent the next few years buying tools and play at building the boat, or do you want to go sailing..
At a point in my life, Jim Brown, The trimaran whiz, told me to stop screwing around making the boat perfect and just go sailing.....I did. But I still worked on the boat just making something else a little bit better.
Do you want a fanatastic work of art to display....or do you want a nice boat to go sailing. They are not mutually exclusive. Using Andrew's remarks....And having this same discussion in my living room with Mr. and Mrs. Dix, I think there's a possibility there.
Fir stair tread stock is readily available. A one car garage is available to most everyone, either that or a small shed. A boat of the size under discussion is a relatively small entity until you start the final assembly and plank the hull. A rudder can be made during the winter and stored in the attic, or hung on a wall, as can all the frames/bulkheads, stem, etc. With a careful design and attention to detail, let's say all the frames are on 36 or 40 inch centers. That will give 18 or 20 inch spaces less the thickness of the wood in the separating panel. If those rules are followed, then everything can be cut with a skil saw, a sabre saw and trimmed with a small block plane. Minimal tools required. If it's a centerboard boat, the board and case can be made the same way as a drop in component.. Make the blocks...on a boat that small you don't need winches. Hatches/hatch openings/frames/drop boards etc...all are flat panels.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes! :)

[htom]

If I was looking to build such, John Welsford's Sundowner from stock, or ask Iain Oughtred for Tanka (to echo the poetic form name Haiku), a larger, deep water, cabin, version of the Caledonia Yawl.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Between Trekka and the Liberdade?

[htom]

Like John Letcher's Aleutka (25'), but in lapstrake plywood with Oughtred's style, flair, ... what's the word? Grace.

[paladin]

Yup! Now we're getting somewhere. . I think a 23 foot Sundowner with a couple of small mods would be my "ideal" cruiser. I would lengthen the cabin and go to an inflatable or nesting dink and build a laminated ring frame for the mast support.

[Paul Pless]

Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising.Yup! Now we're getting somewhere.Maybe on Tuesday the Woodenboat readers will get lucky enough to have Carl talk Chuck into setting up such a contest, judging it, and then writing about winners. :)

[SV Papillon]

It seems you are refering to a plank on frame build. Is it possible to design something that would require minumal hand and power tools. Small bandsaw planer and power tools that are easily aquired and would fit in a garage. What about a uniform stock of lumber for the build, like all 4x4, laminated frames and beams etc. Or at least the smallest within reason materials, building technics and tools list for the build. Most importantly keeping the skill sets and costruction methods required for the build realistic for a novice to produce a safe and sound vessel.
Jake

[Nanoose]

Seems Lyn and Larry Pardy have already covered this.
Wasn't their first boat in that 22-23 foot range?, before graduating to the larger Talesin....around 28-29 feet, right?

How Small is Too Small? http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/how-small-is-too-small-22940.html

Giles "Vertue", or Hess "Seraffyn" http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12628

[paladin]

What I am referring to is something that can be built with minimal tools and readily available wood. The stair tread stock can be easily sawed into strips then every other piece reversed and laminated together to get A) a stronger beam with minimal timber and
B) a semblance of quarter sawed wood.
The planking could then be strips of the same material with perhaps a layer of thin marine ply and epoxy sheathing, or ply planks.
A skil saw with a narrow kerf blade works wonder...especially when you set up a saw horse and use a strip of angle iron for a rip fence.

[Bob Roncace]

<snip> A one car garage is available to most everyone, either that or a small shed. A boat of the size under discussion is a relatively small entity until you start the final assembly and plank the hull. A rudder can be made during the winter and stored in the attic, or hung on a wall, as can all the frames/bulkheads, stem, etc. With a careful design and attention to detail, let's say all the frames are on 36 or 40 inch centers. That will give 18 or 20 inch spaces less the thickness of the wood in the separating panel. If those rules are followed, then everything can be cut with a skil saw, a sabre saw and trimmed with a small block plane. Minimal tools required. If it's a centerboard boat, the board and case can be made the same way as a drop in component.. Make the blocks...on a boat that small you don't need winches. Hatches/hatch openings/frames/drop boards etc...all are flat panels.

Chuck;

I'm just cleaning up from finishing the build on my sister's kayak. SWMBO has been looking forward to actually using the garage as a garage. If you keep on talking like that I'll just have to start another project and then the fur (likely mine!) will fly! :D

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I would go perhaps even further and say "can we avoid the planer and the bandsaw" - the noise of power tools can be a serious issue with neighbours. With a plywood skinned construction, this should be possible. "Sundowner" with her cold moulded construction might be a case in point.

[paladin]

I would avoid the planer and bandsaw. I had no trouble with neighbors when using the skil saw. When the power plane started folks started to get upset. The frequency was ear wrenching. With a small boat, the frames can be relatively thin...2-3 inches...and if you purchase short stock of 8 feet or so, many yards will make repetitive straight cuts for a customer at minimal prices. Most of the really difficult saw work can be done at the yard. The finish work is what takes time...time or money, your choice.

[donald branscom]

http://i30.tinypic.com/ezy29.jpgPerfect for your puposes. Edwin Monks original "VAGABOND" minimal cruiser. 17 feet 3 inches. Three boards on each side. PL glue and screws and circular saw. Plans are basically free by buying a inexpensive book. No fancy hardware.

[Hwyl]

Im looking for the reason tthis thread isnt in the designs and plans section Because it's a suggestion to the editors.


Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising

Don't make yourself feel stupid. I made the same mistake.

[Paul Pless]

Don't make yourself feel stupid. I made the same mistake.So you'll be doing the Footies again next year eh? :D

[john welsford]

I really like this idea, its very close to my heart. I believe that so much of our media where prospective cruisers get their information is driven by advertising that the real essence has been lost. Advertisers wanting to sell their product mean that over past 5 decades the perceived norm for a "small" offshore cruiser has gone from 24 to 30 ft, no electronics, towed log and sextant, kerosene stove and no refridgeration to a 45 footer with more money in the electronics than the boats typical of the late 50s and early 60s cost all up.
The ads say " you cant do without this" and " if you have this you'll be safer (more comfortable, faster, or whatever emotive hot point they are trying to trigger) and after a while all this stuff became accepted as neccessary.

It aint, neccessary that is. I'd take a hand held GPS, a radio transmitter and a depth sounder. For cruising in any normal climate thats all, no fridge, no oven other than one of those neat folding Taylor stove top models, and just enough engine to get me legally into a marina where I am not allowed to sail in or out.

Ending the rant and changing subject for a while, I believe that the critical factor for a really small offshore cruiser is how long will your voyage be, and how many people do you have to provide for.
Given the answer to that, the expected voyage duration x 10 lbs per person per day plus safety allowance of 20% plus the weight of engine fuel that is expected to be used will give you the variable load allowance.
That weight difference governs the boats size. I allow a maximum of 25% of the boats light ship displacement to cover that. Any more and the boat is overloaded at takeoff.
So, you might advocate a longer but lightweight boat, or a shorter but deep and wide boat, but that figure of plus 25% works in in all but a very few exceptions.

Note that the 20% safety allowance assumes that you are going to be able to reprovision from scratch at your destination, and the 10lbs a day sounds generous but it covers food, water, washing water, soap, toilet paper, stove fuel, toothpaste and every other little thing. Its not too much, especially in the tropics where water consumption rises.

John Welsford





Guys have asked a gazillion times for a cruising boat for minimal offshore cruising that won't break the budget. But they don't want to build an ugly boat. Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising. With points for the boat/hull design, points for aesthetics, points for the sail rig and ease of handling, points for equipment that can be excluded and cheaper solutions used....etc. The days of expensive cruisers have gone the way of the buffalo.

[john welsford]

I would go perhaps even further and say "can we avoid the planer and the bandsaw" - the noise of power tools can be a serious issue with neighbours. With a plywood skinned construction, this should be possible. "Sundowner" with her cold moulded construction might be a case in point.

Sundowner was designed to be buildable with a 71/4 in "Skilsaw", a hand power plane, and a big powerful jigsaw plus hand tools. Its possible of course to build her with only hand tools but more electric stuff does speed up the build. She was designed to be built by beginners, and so far more than half of those who have bought plans are on their first build. One is being built for a trip from Brazil to the Antarctic peninsular, back via South Africa and St Helena, thats really offshore cruising and will use pretty much all of Sundowers carrying capacity even singlehanded as its about a six month trip between reprovisioning points.

John Welsford

[john welsford]

I've had a bit to do with Mini Transats, designed a couple and sailed them, been at the end of the 1999 race and saw the state of the boats and the skippers. I dont think that they are workable cruisers beyond a weekend, even for fit young people and remember that I do a lot of open boat cruising. Even in comparison with that genre of cruising they are uncomfortably extreme.
I've was a"hired gun" skipper on 1/4 tonners of about the Waarschip era, had a half tonner of my own about that time and while they are better than Les Minis I'm not convinced that they are a good start either.
I think that its by far the best to begin with the breif and start from basic principles, my Swaggie design is an example of that, as is Sundowner but I'm not totally wedded to heavy displacement as in both of those cases there were limitations on length that had nothing to do with sailing ( building space).

But, on reflection if we are designing for an amateur builder, the building space is a very pertinent consideration.

John Welsford


Thinking positively, following Chuck's prescription, I would envisage something somewhat on the lines of a Mini Transat boat, simplified and cheapened and perhaps crossed with, say, a Waarschip quarter tonner with a dash of Ian Oughtred and a dash of Dudley Dix.

[Rational Root]

I quite agree, here is a candidate for the death wish club:
Scotland to Iceland (http://www.uswayfarer.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=39)

I read his book.

Fascinating, hard to put down.

Recommended reading to anyone who considers going offshore in a small open boat.

Weathering a force 8, in a wayfarer, laying to a sea anchor, under the tent, throwing up into the bilge every time you try to move, is not my idea of fun.

He also did a number of trips to Norway, and got caught in a Force 9. He had to take turns with his crew hauling on the sea anchor to bring the bow to the waves when the seas crossed up after the wind changed direction.

They capsized and recovered 4 times during that storm.

A fantastic display of ability and sheer refusal to die.

Truly open boat journeys across the open ocean are not a pastime for people who have dependants.

[PeterSibley]

What I am referring to is something that can be built with minimal tools and readily available wood. The stair tread stock can be easily sawed into strips then every other piece reversed and laminated together to get A) a stronger beam with minimal timber and
B) a semblance of quarter sawed wood.
The planking could then be strips of the same material with perhaps a layer of thin marine ply and epoxy sheathing, or ply planks.
A skil saw with a narrow kerf blade works wonder...especially when you set up a saw horse and use a strip of angle iron for a rip fence.

I hate to say it but James Wharram has already done it .Cheap ,simple , buildable by anyone . There are more of his Classic Designs out there seeing the world than almost anything else I can think of .A huge range of sizes ....actually I think complexity ,time and cost are better considerations than overall length .

[Duncan Gibbs]

Bruce Kirbey's NIS23 is a great example as well: Able to cross one the most treacherous stretches of water - Bass Straight, between Victoria and Tasmania - including weathering 60 knot gales and strong tides fairly easily. Not expensive, trailerable and shoal draft too.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

John Welsford makes excellent points.

Having spent my sailing life in heavy displacement "long haul" cruising boats I was getting carried away with the benefits of light displacement.

But length, as John says, is a great advantage, and is much cheaper than beam and draft.

[Bob Roncace]

First, sorry for the length of this post but this idea has been eating at me; it’s apropos of this thread and I need to get it out to ask for your collective opinion.

How about really designing this boat for those of us with restricted working space, like the typical one-car garage? As has been discussed, it’s certainly possible to build a frame at a time, laminate the stem and put it aside, etc… But I’m not talking about just the piece parts. Eventually all the pieces have to come together someplace where the hull can all be laid out, full length.

Building a 20+ ft boat in a one-car garage means that at some point you’re either going to have to a) buy a house with a bigger garage, or b) build a shop if you have the land to do that, or c) rent a working space if you can find one. Maybe you can’t move anytime soon and you live on a postage stamp-sized lot, so a) and b) are out. As for option c), I’ve found that storage space is easy and reasonably cheap to rent, space you can work in – not so much. And if the work space isn’t right outside your back door (or in your garage) the amount of productive time applied to the project will be much limited by the time lost to traveling to where the boat is.

So it occurred to me that boats have sometimes been lengthened by cutting them in half, inserting a new section and sewing them back together again. I also saw on Discovery Channel (IIRC) a show about an icebreaking freighter that was assembled from separate halves constructed at two different shipyards several hundred miles apart.

Why can’t our hypothetical minimal offshore cruising boat be built in two separate halves, each small enough to fit in the one-car garage? Assemble the first half and store it while you’re assembling the second half. This would delay the need to relocate the project to a place where the whole hull can come together and also minimize the length of time the larger space would be needed.

Yes, I know it complicates the structure and makes it a bit heavier; probably need to have matching frames at the section ends and accommodate a way to splice the main longitudinal members. But since it’s likely to be a full displacement boat the extra weight shouldn’t hurt and may just lessen the need for additional ballast. Getting the sections properly aligned to nail them together could also be kind of fiddly, but that’s what wedges and jack stands are for. So what do you all think? Impractical? Wrong headed? Stupidest thing you ever heard? Possible?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, I was just thinking the very same thing!

It might not be a bad plan to limit the beam and depth to what will go into an ISO shipping container - there are loads of these around the place and they would offer cheap storage for a finished half.

[damnyankee]

I am not a naval architect, however. when I was reading the two-part idea my initial reaction (besides "Brilliant!",) was not two pieces, but three. Have a third piece, perhaps a keel piece, etc that overlapped each other piece that helped align the pieces and strengthen the joint.


Christopher

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

There will be difficulties; most boats that come into two parts are built as one, sawn apart after building between a double bulkhead, in order to ensure that the panels either side of the joint lie fair with each other.

A challenge ?

[spirit]

It would be pretty easy to stitch-and-glue two identical halves of a 25-30' boat like a St Pierre dory out of 4 x 8' sheets of 0.5-0.75" thick marine plywood, and bolt them together. The vessel would be simple to design and build, light, very strong, safe at sea (if self-bailing), have generous capacity etc. Paladin didn't specific sail or power for his "challenge," but a big dory would work for either. Of course the sailer would need a board and water ballast...

[htom]

Bolger's Scow Schooner, #41 in Boats with an Open Mind, maybe? Not an open-sea boat, though.

[Ted Hoppe]

The choice is do you want to spent the next few years buying tools and play at building the boat, or do you want to go sailing..
At a point in my life, Jim Brown, The trimaran whiz, told me to stop screwing around making the boat perfect and just go sailing.....I did. But I still worked on the boat just making something else a little bit better.

There never has been a time in history that so many great used boats are to be had for free or a few pennies. A man or woman of growing basic repair skill can make an H28 derivative Trans pacific ready. One only needs a few freed bucks, motivation, community and sweat. Yes radar, second GPS units, Sat phones, numerous ERBs, trust funds and federal employee health benefits are quite nice but sometimes not available. But if you consider why you are want to get out on your tack; you will find the direction or destination less certain.

We wage labors, taxed classes and other of modest means might be experiencing or can see the beginning of the decline of the unabashed middle class circumnavigator/sailors and their matching vessels. But this should not stop the bold adventurer. If you burn to do dark passages and tropical isles you will.

Regardless of most boater intentions: remember rarely do 5 percent of all boat skippers go beyond the horizon. Family, health, age, relationships, obligations, career, hobbies and financial uncertainties will hold skippers close. So consider these two parallel options: Get a modest old boat to do your portion of the inter coastal; take your best friends out for the fireworks or see the blue angels; anchor off an island for white wine and meteor showers; skim the moving water with your fingertips; reconnect with your loved ones applying sunscreen. You will find enough lonely time fixing your boat that sharing it gives you the better value; a more emotionally and satisfying -rewarding adventure. Or if you hanker for adventure, save and do an exotic charter every other year - you will find those vacations the beer is colder, sex is hotter, the smiles are longer and the worries are less. In both scenarios, you will be happier on other levels.

Fair winds as you have fun messing with boats!

[john welsford]

Coincidentally I have a customer calling early this afternoon wanting me to draw him just that very thing. A blue water capable cruising yacht that will accommodate two in some degree of comfort for up to two weeks, and which will be shipped from one set of interesting cruising waters to another in a 20 ft shipping container.
He is a sea captain who drives an offshore oil rig tender by the way. Never built a boat, and describes himself as just about having the skills to build a kitchen shelf.

Watch this space.

John Welsford

Well, I was just thinking the very same thing!

It might not be a bad plan to limit the beam and depth to what will go into an ISO shipping container - there are loads of these around the place and they would offer cheap storage for a finished half.

[NickW]

Evening All

A design that seems to fit would be Francois Vivier's latest "Pen-Hir". Slightly larger than suggested at nearly 25'. Here's the link, Pen-Hir is near the bottom of the page.
http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_classic.html

As to building in 2 halves, a couple of articles in Watercraft described a similiar approach to building a Selway-Fisher design, the THE SHANGHAI 25'5" CRUISING YACHT, where the central portion (the cabin essentially) was built and fitted out before the stringers were lenghtened to bow and stern and then panelled.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Shanghaid1.gif
Regards

Nick

[WX]

Offshore is not for open boat folks except those with a death wish.
There was a time when it was not out of the ordinary.
With no larger boat available, Matthew Flinders, with his friend Dr. George Bass, set out in the tiny Tom Thumb, with a young boy as crew, to explore the coast south of Port Jackson. The Tom Thumb was only eight feet long, but the discoveries of the young explorers helped open up the country.

I like the Shanghai, she looks to be a lot of fun. Ideal for shallow waters and the Junk rig means she will be easy to manage.

[paladin]

There are lots of existing designs...I like the simplicity of the Great Pelican, and I like the performance of other craft I have toyed with designs using a simple ply "V" bottom and strip planked topsides.
In Vietnam I took a Rhodes 19 and chopped off the cabin, laminated new inside gunnels, the ballast was gone so I welded up a new keel and poured lead into cutout holes and faired it with epoxy and microballoons....I sailed that boat from Chomburi where I shipped it from Nha Trang...and sailed it to Singapore.
It can be done.......it wasn't my ideal boat...it was what I had.
What I am proposing is not the ultimate do all boat.......that is up to the individuals taste and performance objectives.....
I built progressively larger boats.....I went too big....and the small boats were more fun.

[CapnJ2ds]

The exploits of the Dyes in their Wayfarer have gone on long enough to take them out of the stunt category. Webb Chiles circumnavigated in a Drascombe Lugger. Wouldn't want to do it myself though - I'm getting too old and fond of my creature comforts.

The 'Mini Transat' types I consider fall into the stunt category; OK for a brief period of hard driving, but a cruiser has to be something you can actually live aboard for long periods.

Shipping the boat from one cruising-ground to the next? Not a bad idea if your circumstances permit. Way back there was an Aussie airline pilot who had a leeboard version Griffiths 'Waterwitch' - "Iota"- which he used to get slung on board a freighter and lashed down [on old tyres] on the cargo hatch. The boat would be chucked overboard again in - say - Papeete, the owner would fly in, raise the [tabernacle] masts, stock up and cruise the area.

Eric Hiscock reckonned that 7 1/2 metres WL/9 m LOA was about the minimum for real cruising, but had already proved it could be done in a smaller boat - "Wanderer II".

We seem to have plenty of existing candidates for our minimal offshore cruiser; John's "Sundowner", "Trekka", "Seraffyn", innumerable Vertues, Mike Bales and Adrian Hayter did it in Folkboats ...... the list goes on.

Are we then re-inventing the wheel? Or just trying to improve it? If the latter maybe John could set the kids at Albany on the job?

[Dave Wright]

...............
We seem to have plenty of existing candidates for our minimal offshore cruiser; John's "Sundowner", "Trekka", "Seraffyn", innumerable Vertues, Mike Bales and Adrian Hayter did it in Folkboats ...... the list goes on.

Are we then re-inventing the wheel? Or just trying to improve it? .....

Absolutely right! We're re-inventing because so many folks don't know what's been previously done. And we're trying for improvements because most folks just think more about boating more than actually doing it.

No harm though, the process is lot's of fun.

[john welsford]

Laws and Officialdom are making the shipping of small cruisers internationally a difficult proposition. If the boat comes in on her own bottom its generally not a problem but if she is shipped in there are all sorts of hassles about duties and taxes as she becomes 'goods" rather than a ship in her own right.
I did give the issue of the design of a small long range cruiser to the "Kids at Albany" ( for those who dont know, for a while I taught "transport design" which includes both motor vehicles and marine at Massey University in Albany just north of Auckland New Zealand. Huge fun and I am sure I learned more than the students).
The resulting essays were interesting, and one or two actually got their direction right, but I am not sure that I'd want to take many of them very far.
But give those same students a few years and then lets see where they take it.

John Welsford


The exploits of the Dyes in their Wayfarer have gone on long enough to take them out of the stunt category. Webb Chiles circumnavigated in a Drascombe Lugger. Wouldn't want to do it myself though - I'm getting too old and fond of my creature comforts.

The 'Mini Transat' types I consider fall into the stunt category; OK for a brief period of hard driving, but a cruiser has to be something you can actually live aboard for long periods.

Shipping the boat from one cruising-ground to the next? Not a bad idea if your circumstances permit. Way back there was an Aussie airline pilot who had a leeboard version Griffiths 'Waterwitch' - "Iota"- which he used to get slung on board a freighter and lashed down [on old tyres] on the cargo hatch. The boat would be chucked overboard again in - say - Papeete, the owner would fly in, raise the [tabernacle] masts, stock up and cruise the area.

Eric Hiscock reckonned that 7 1/2 metres WL/9 m LOA was about the minimum for real cruising, but had already proved it could be done in a smaller boat - "Wanderer II".

We seem to have plenty of existing candidates for our minimal offshore cruiser; John's "Sundowner", "Trekka", "Seraffyn", innumerable Vertues, Mike Bales and Adrian Hayter did it in Folkboats ...... the list goes on.

Are we then re-inventing the wheel? Or just trying to improve it? If the latter maybe John could set the kids at Albany on the job?

[wtarzia]

...So it occurred to me that boats have sometimes been lengthened by cutting them in half, inserting a new section and sewing them back together again. I also saw on Discovery Channel (IIRC) a show about an icebreaking freighter that was assembled from separate halves constructed at two different shipyards several hundred miles apart. ...

--- I face this problem right now. I want a 24 foot outrigger canoe. My garage is taken up by my 16 footer and I have a small yard (and poor access to the back yard). Gary Dierking designed and sells plans for a 24 foot outrigger canoe made in three 8 foot sections, and bolts together. This can be made on my basement workbench. He roriginally designed it as a tender to take apart during his trimaran cruising of the Pacific. (Trivia fact: His 24 footer can be an instant 16 footer by removing the middle section and changing rig). Previously I built and stored a sailing outrigger in my old apartment -- two bolt-together halves, and the whole thing fit into the back of my Rodeo withthe rear seats folded down (see wtarzia.com/proa), which did the job well enough when the option was having no boat at all.

Recently I bought study plans for a 20 foot sailing sharpie that had an option of being built in three sections (bolt together). There is nothing to prevent anyone from buildingin this fashion and then making the boat permanent at the end by gluing and bolting the bulkheads together. (In fact, this is not an new idea, right? Wasn't that long, heavy work boat -- forget the name of its type -- brought over to Jamestown in the hold of the ship in two halves and then bolted together by our earliest colonists? There's an article in a previous WB issue of last year or two) A heavy boat would be a logistics challenge, perhaps, but you'd only have to do it once, and perhaps not much more worse than having to roll a boat over during the construction phase. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

Absolutely right! We're re-inventing because so many folks don't know what's been previously done. And we're trying for improvements because most folks just think more about boating more than actually doing it...

--- Well, maybe that is often the case. However, some people who *do* as well as think like the thinking part so much that they cannot be happy with someone else's boat. I'm probably one of those people. But there are so many boats that whatever one designs ones' self is likely to strongly resemble a boat someone else already made ;-) I was designing a sailing outrigger for the Everglades Challenge race, and I thought and thought and sketched and sketched and asked questions, and the more I re-sketched, the more my "ideal" boat started resembling two of canoe-builder Dierkings proven designs, the Tamanu and the Wa'Apa. I stopped the process, though I am a little sad, now. Invention is utterly human and the best thing about humans; we are happy when inventing. -- Wade

[JimD]

...I like the simplicity of the Great Pelican...

How about the 20 foot 'Super Pelican'?

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/motorsailers/31784d1242581273-huge-sailboat-simply-built-d7.jpg

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/motorsailers/31785d1242581273-huge-sailboat-simply-built-d8.jpg

Hi,

I'm the new owner of "Dowser" a 20' Super Pelican built in 1990 by John Roumbanis. I purchased Dowser from Jeff Lehman of Platypus boats and am just finishing off glassing the interior and repainting the decks. Currently Dowser is fitted with a large Chinese junk rig, but I also have the original bowsprit to reconfigure her to her lug rig/jib design. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/motorsailers/31785d1242581273-huge-sailboat-simply-built-d8.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/huge-sailboat-simply-built-14525-3.html&usg=__rVSu9DuOyy5S0URqY48twtYqzPI=&h=480&w=431&sz=33&hl=en&start=43&tbnid=Opj4dfJ7U8piXM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3D20%2Bfoot%2Bgreat%2Bpelican%2Bsailboa t%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start %3D40

Thelin

[falco de fiume]

For a really small boat for sailing where one might be out of sight of land for several days I would favor Wm Atkins' Blue Bird.

Richard

[dskira]

When you pass the line of demarcation the US Coast Guard will stop you and if they feel you or your craft are not seaworthy they will not let you proceed.


It has been tried by others.
I have seen craft built with 2x4's and so forth that looked ok but somehow the whole package ,you know cheap boat ,nutty kind of captain, provisions and size of boat all combined to have the Coast Guard escort the person back to the nearest marina.

And ... yes the little craft did have an American flag on it. Did not help.

Oh, and one more thing. Since when have you seen 22-23 foot 2x4's at Home Depot? HUH HUH HUH

Plywood epoxy is not stronger if badly built. It is not the "2 by" or "wood epoxy" which make the difference, it is the quality of the construction.
By the way most of the douglas fir is sold "2by" beautiful, great lenght, and clear. It is a dimension, not a quality status.
Home Depot as nothing to do with any "2 by" of quality. You don't have to go there to find your wood. Any good lumberyard sell "2 by"
It seams to be always the same joke.
Cheers
Daniel

[Sayla]

Mark Smaalder's Wynfall seems like an option in this class

[Lance F. Gunderson]

I like Bolger's Seabird '86 design. Well though out, easy and cheap to build, should get you there and back in style.

[chergui]

Can you build a 22-23' boat that is heavy enough for the weather you could experience offshore? I think I remember reading that the Pardey's preferred a boat with a displacement over 10,000lbs for offshore sailing. I've had my boat now for 5 years, Chuck Paine's Carol at 24', 5700lbs displacment, 8' beam, flush deck, 2700 lbs lead ballast. It's probably one of the most solid boats around for it's size. But I've been in squalls that have blown the boat over 30 degrees with no sails up even around these waters. Pretty sure that's not going to happen with more weight. In 50+ knots and difficult seas I'm not sure what would happen. You get tossed around more that's for sure. Reading Adlard Cole's "Heavy Weather Sailing", I'm not sure a 22' boat would survive a lot of those situations.

The book has some very good tips on things to look for in an offshore boat. Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous. That's what I'd like to know anyway :)

[CapnJ2ds]

Can you build a 22-23' boat that is heavy enough for the weather you could experience offshore? I think I remember reading that the Pardey's preferred a boat with a displacement over 10,000lbs for offshore sailing. I've had my boat now for 5 years, Chuck Paine's Carol at 24', 5700lbs displacment, 8' beam, flush deck, 2700 lbs lead ballast. It's probably one of the most solid boats around for it's size. But I've been in squalls that have blown the boat over 30 degrees with no sails up even around these waters. Pretty sure that's not going to happen with more weight. In 50+ knots and difficult seas I'm not sure what would happen. You get tossed around more that's for sure. Reading Adlard Cole's "Heavy Weather Sailing", I'm not sure a 22' boat would survive a lot of those situations.

The book has some very good tips on things to look for in an offshore boat. Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous. That's what I'd like to know anyway :)
As the saying goes; "size doesn't matter". I've been caught out offshore in 50+ knots [and I mean plus!] in a 13m, deep draught, stiff, high freeboard cutter and been laid over in the squalls about 45 degrees under bare poles. Seas weren't that pleasant either!

Amongst many others, Guzzwell's little "Trekka" successfully circumnavigated. I'd guess she'd be like a cork in a washing machine in a storm, but corks float.

All things being equal, it tends to be the crew that gives out before the boat does.

Many years ago - Yea, even before I was born - there was some correspondence in a UK yachting magazine about the best size of boat for blue water voyaging. Someone ended it by saying that in his opinion all boats were too small.

[ishmael]

"Sure you can take a light boat and you might be fine but how much can it take before it's dangerous."

I think, if I may be so bold, that you are asking the wrong question. It's dangerous venturing offshore in a little boat. Dangers are inherent in any boat, at any time. You are surrounded by a medium that will kill you if your little envelope of wood, steel, or fiberglass fails. People drown, often, in the capsize of a row boat or a canoe. Minimum size for drowning a person becomes irrelevant.

To the original header, I think Gile's Vertue. He thought long and hard as he penned that design and was no man's fool.

[norseman]

A folkboat a la Jester with junk rig as Jim D suggested. Pretty fast,too. Slow compared to most cruising boats today,just like mine. 3.5 knots or so average on say a hundred mile leg. I've spent the last three months trying to reach the Biscay via Scotland and the Irish Sea. Usually an average cruising boat like a Bavaria will go twice as fast. Anyway,the ability to heave to is a must.

[floatingkiwi]

I don't feel like I am at sea on a small vessel as much as I feel like my boat and me are one and I am on a big sea.

[paladin]

I've posted this scenario a couple or three times in the last ten-fifteen years......
Leaving Phuket Thailand in the wee morning hours headed in the direction of Madagascar and with a detour to the Seychelles in mind for Sweet Thing to get her natural tan....we encountered a wee bit of unsettling weather. We had been listening to the HF SSB radio and net control out of Hong Kong and it was obvious that we were gonna be in for a bad night. I doubled the heavy drogue on a bridle and swung it from the outrigger bows, with a loose primary control line to the main hull in case one side of the bridle let go (it didn't). We had a couple/three hours before the real nasties hit. We made some hot soup and placed it in a thermos, same with coffee, made some toast, scrambled some eggs, some bacon and put it away. We also got everything under hatches and tied down, sails doubly so.
We were hit about 2 a.m. We were napping when it started blowing hard and the sea was building. We were listening to music, cuddle
d up with a blanket, hot soup, crackers etc....after about 6 hours it started letting up.....Sweet thing sliced some tomatoes, lettuce, got some may for our toast and we had bacon/egg/cheese/lettuce and tomato breakfast sandwiches with hot coffee. I turned on the HF radios......approx 200 miles away a tanker had broken in two and was sinking, all hands were in lifeboats, they reported a 50 foot Al Mason yacht in transit to the new owners, charter crew aboard, had been sending out week maydays all night but were now quiet (no trace ever found). We cleaned up our gear and got it on board. We had drifted 40 miles according to calculations using the drogue.
We headed for the tanker......just as we were arriving the air sea rescue folks also arrived and dropped rafts and gear, and reported another vessel on the way. There were 12 men in rafts, so we made several pots of hot coffee and almost depleted our sugar supply. We had baked the morning before so had 3-4 loaves of sourdough bread to slice up for sandwiches.

[floatingkiwi]

Paladin. A fresh loaf of sourdough bread is not something one would find floating about in the middle of the ocean. Good on ya.
You weathered the conditions with relative ease and the Al Mason was trashed. Was this due ,completely, to your preparing yourself and vessel with the drogue, whilst the fish food fiddled with radio knobs? God rest their poor weary souls, I always wonder what their last moments were like.
Apparently the series drogue is, nowadays , far more efficient connected to the stern.Do you do this?

[wtarzia]

Paladin, was the boat a trimaran? -- Wade

[mafotspa]

It so great. Thanks a lots.

[paladin]

Wtarzia.....Yes, A Brown Searunner 31.....

[weedeater64]

http://i30.tinypic.com/ezy29.jpgPerfect for your puposes. Edwin Monks original "VAGABOND" minimal cruiser. 17 feet 3 inches. Three boards on each side. PL glue and screws and circular saw. Plans are basically free by buying a inexpensive book. No fancy hardware.


Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

[paladin]

Conway, Arkysaw?....you must be up there near Twitty.....

[weedeater64]

Conway, Arkysaw?....you must be up there near Twitty.....

Who dat? Where abouts he/she live?

[rbgarr]

Memories of Conway: Long Live Toad Suck Daze!! :D

http://www.toadsuck.org/

[Rational Root]

Offshore is not for open boat folks except those with a death wish....

One Man's "Death Wish" is another man's "Just for Kicks".

Most of the guys doing "Death Wish" stuff try their damnedest to stay alive. I speak from personal experience, and from knowing a lot of people a whole lot crazier than me.

[floatingkiwi]

Memories of Conway: Long Live Toad Suck Daze!! :D

http://www.toadsuck.org/
OK, but how did "Toad Suck Lock", get its name?

[Mike Vogdes]

I have always admired Bruce Binghams Flicka 20, very robust little boat. I see now she's available in kit form, in glass or wood.

http://ckdboats.blogspot.com/search?q=Flicka

[Lewisboats]

Would that be the book titled (small boat building)

"How to build wooden boats with 16 small boat designs"

[donald branscom]

Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

No. "Boat Building" was written by Howard Chappelle.

The book that the Edwin Monk design appears in is "How to Build Wooden Boats" by Edwin Monk. 16 small boat designs.

[weedeater64]

No. "Boat Building" was written by Howard Chappelle.

The book that the Edwin Monk design appears in is "How to Build Wooden Boats" by Edwin Monk. 16 small boat designs.

Yeah I know about "Boat Building"
I found one by Monk titled "Small Boat Building" on the dngoodchild site

http://dngoodchild.com/divide_for_boat_building_and_design.htm

10 bucks for the one your talking about , I've been thinking of ordering some books, might add that one to the list.

Thanks.

[Alan H]

I know a guy who sailed solo from San Francisco to Hawaii in a Cal 20. So...not sure what that proves, but there you go. Cal 20's are *cheap*. If you wanted to spend the minimal amount of money and go soon, with enough headroom to sit up in and also not have to sleep in the bloody bilge, well..I know this is a wooden boat forum, but honestly, I'd probably buy an old Columbia 24 or 26, replace the rigging, get all the sails checked out, put on a windvane and GO. I bet you could go a long way on $7,000. Also a wonderful choice for something like this would be an old Pearson Triton. If that's too big, then get an Ariel.

Or.... if what you want to do is build a boat, you could look around for plans, buy lumber and a lot of really expensive goops and fasteners, and get going for about $20,000, eight or nine years from now.

[paladin]

If you get one of the old Columbia 24-26's...buy lotsa glue...the bulkheads were dropped in and taped with maybe one piece of fiberglass tape and polyester resin...I've known 2 or three that got into some rocky weather and the insides came loose, one split in half and sank....and in a bay, not the ocean.

[weedeater64]

How about this one?

(http://dngoodchild.com/5617.htm)http://dngoodchild.com/5617.htm

Or Rabl's picaroon?

[jalmberg]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Tom Gilmer's Blue Moon... one of my favorite designs. A proven, small, offshore boat.

-- John

[perldog007]

Guys have asked a gazillion times for a cruising boat for minimal offshore cruising that won't break the budget. But they don't want to build an ugly boat. Why not set up a contest to design something in the 22-23 foot range for offshore cruising. With points for the boat/hull design, points for aesthetics, points for the sail rig and ease of handling, points for equipment that can be excluded and cheaper solutions used....etc. The days of expensive cruisers have gone the way of the buffalo.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/french/1-wr.jpg

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/outings/french/index.htm

The Navy exorcised all of my blue water demons at an early age. Minimal cruiser? simple - Bolger Micro.

More Curves desired? Don't see the simple beauty in that minimalist sharpie shape? I would go for a Welsford design.

The Swaggie is one catalog description I find myself reading over and over

But they don't want to build an ugly boat Maybe an intervention? A reality show format perhaps?

As long as I can remember, have always thought boats in general to be things of beauty. Really don't comprehend how some look at a design like the Micro and start spewing forth venom about it's looks.

I look at the blunt shape, consider the capability, read about what they have done, and see a thing of beauty.

In no way does that mean I don't find some boats stunning to look at. Ian Oughtred's work comes to mind.

On the other hand, if somebody can beat the Micro or Martha Jane for a budget built cruiser with minimal offshore capability, then that's a worthwhile contest. There are a slew of them built for a reason.

[Woxbox]

...that won't break the budget.

What sort of budget? That should be the limiting factor in this kind of contest, not an arbitrary length. And we've got to assume the owner just wants to build his own boat, not buy a bargain plastic thing.

Is $10,000 unreasonably low. $20,000 too much?

[weedeater64]

What sort of budget? That should be the limiting factor in this kind of contest, not an arbitrary length. And we've got to assume the owner just wants to build his own boat, not buy a bargain plastic thing.

Is $10,000 unreasonably low.
Lower. I should think that if you get a bunch of bright folks together, you could get that down quite a bit.

[OconeePirate]

Would that be the book titled (small boat building) ?

The google books thing can be really neat sometimes. They even have random pages online so you can kind of tell how badly you want the book before you buy it. How to Build Wooden Boats: With 16 Small Boat Designs, by Edwin Monk (http://books.google.com/books?id=cGC2MTVsoToC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=edwin+monks+vagabond&source=bl&ots=dvHbmxiPVq&sig=uKmO93FwvmECBzPEdh8dfP7aljk&hl=en&ei=iIL9So75Mo2sngfZ5MWVCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
For this one they even have some of the simple plan pages listed, so you can get and idea of the designs.

[George Ray]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Yrvind
Sven Yrvind (born April 22, 1939 in Gothenburg, Sweden as Sven Lundin) is a Swedish sailor, boat builder, and writer. He is famous for sailing alone across oceans in tiny boats of his own design. Yrvind is the inventor of the Bris sextant, a small, angle-measuring instrument used in navigation.

******************
Interviews on Furled Sails podcast:
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=726
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=727
******************
http://www.yrvind.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
Excerpt:
After decades of studying, designing, building and sailing small, ocean-going boats I have evolved a safe, functional design. Here is a brief description of Yrvind ½, my next boat in that series, embarrassingly named after myself.
Her basic dimensions are length 4.8 meter, or 15 feet 9 inches, beam 1.3 meter or 4 feet 4 inches, draft 0.22 meter or 9 inches. Her intended displacement fully loaded will hopefully be 800 kilos or 1760 pounds.
In designing her I have had invaluable help from Matt Layden. I hope to sail her down the Atlantic, east in the southern ocean to visit a friend Per in Melbourne .. ... ..... .............



http://www.yrvind.com/uploaded_images/P1080008-1KPX-735243.jpg
http://www.yrvind.com/uploaded_images/AL-BRIS-IN-HEAVY-WEATHER-1KPX-785853.jpg

[Topgallant schooner]

There are allready a lot of candidates out there!
A friend of mine (Sven)
circumnavigated the globe in first "Stormy I" -23 ft. later "Stormy II" -18 ft.
The boat type is originally a rescue boat, a klinker build beamy double ender.
It will do a great many 360 and still hold together, this at least was what he encountered.
I used once a Wharram 26 (1200 pounds) for singlehandeling the Atlantic, no problem. It was a lot less fun (and hard work) to be lying ahull 3 days in the biscay in F9.
Sven was about 60 years on his first long voyage, so he needed something that would work on its own.
When choosing the vessel, look first at what are your personal requirements (physical ability, experience ect.) then the boat may appear more easy to find.
Good luck!

[Boat Nube]

http://i30.tinypic.com/ezy29.jpgPerfect for your puposes. Edwin Monks original "VAGABOND" minimal cruiser. 17 feet 3 inches. Three boards on each side. PL glue and screws and circular saw. Plans are basically free by buying a inexpensive book. No fancy hardware.

What is that "inexpensive book."

[OconeePirate]

What is that "inexpensive book."

http://books.google.com/books?id=cGC2MTVsoToC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=edwin+monk+vagabond&source=bl&ots=dvI4lxeV-j&sig=ptW8KW6XMRbvXbPgFGE6Uo7x8oM&hl=en&ei=lbUpS_GfBcqWtgfGj7WFCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[donald branscom]

The google books thing can be really neat sometimes. They even have random pages online so you can kind of tell how badly you want the book before you buy it. How to Build Wooden Boats: With 16 Small Boat Designs, by Edwin Monk (http://books.google.com/books?id=cGC2MTVsoToC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=edwin+monks+vagabond&source=bl&ots=dvHbmxiPVq&sig=uKmO93FwvmECBzPEdh8dfP7aljk&hl=en&ei=iIL9So75Mo2sngfZ5MWVCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false)
For this one they even have some of the simple plan pages listed, so you can get and idea of the designs.

Yeah I get it good idea but there is a little problem.... All the drawings he shows for each boat are all different weird scales. I know about Vagabond because when I built the model it caused me fits with the scale. 9.84:1 etc.,.

[OconeePirate]

Yeah I get it good idea but there is a little problem.... All the drawings he shows for each boat are all different weird scales. I know about Vagabond because when I built the model it caused me fits with the scale. 9.84:1 etc.,.

You know, I can't remember what I've typed from one day to the next. I didn't realize I was repeating myself there. LOL.

[floatingkiwi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Yrvind
Sven Yrvind (born April 22, 1939 in Gothenburg, Sweden as Sven Lundin) is a Swedish sailor, boat builder, and writer. He is famous for sailing alone across oceans in tiny boats of his own design. Yrvind is the inventor of the Bris sextant, a small, angle-measuring instrument used in navigation.

******************
Interviews on Furled Sails podcast:
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=726
http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=727
******************
http://www.yrvind.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
Excerpt:
After decades of studying, designing, building and sailing small, ocean-going boats I have evolved a safe, functional design. Here is a brief description of Yrvind ½, my next boat in that series, embarrassingly named after myself.
Her basic dimensions are length 4.8 meter, or 15 feet 9 inches, beam 1.3 meter or 4 feet 4 inches, draft 0.22 meter or 9 inches. Her intended displacement fully loaded will hopefully be 800 kilos or 1760 pounds.
In designing her I have had invaluable help from Matt Layden. I hope to sail her down the Atlantic, east in the southern ocean to visit a friend Per in Melbourne .. ... ..... .............



http://www.yrvind.com/uploaded_images/P1080008-1KPX-735243.jpg
http://www.yrvind.com/uploaded_images/AL-BRIS-IN-HEAVY-WEATHER-1KPX-785853.jpg
I have read this article and was thinking of it trying to remember how to refind it when perusing this thread and am happy to have done so, so easily. This is a cool boat and a lot of your ideas are original and ballsy and done with faith and positivity.I have been thinking of something similar for ventilation. In fact every time I come up with some harebrained idea, of which I am doomed to have many, I notice here and there they are already in use in some kinda way.It is good to see they work anyway.
When I was 15 I designed an instantaneous water heater, then saw one in a shower at a health spa one day. Just about fell over.

[Maximus]

This boat had a short piece in Small Craft Advisor.

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/s/cc_images/cache_1314658417.jpg?t=1238415897

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/s/cc_images/cache_1314649817.jpg?t=1238415846

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/s/cc_images/cache_1314682917.jpg?t=1238416228

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/s/cc_images/cache_1314715417.jpg?t=1238416782

CARACTERISTIQUES

Lenght over all : 5.00 m
Hull lenght: 4.75m
Lenght at DWL : 4.75 m
Beam max.: 2,20 m
Draft max. : 1,35 m
Draft min. : 0.57 m
vertical and retractable keel
2 Berths
Galley and chart table
2 coupled tillers: one inside and one outside
Displacement : 530 kg
Ballast keel : 120kg
Sail area : 18 m2
TRANSPORTABLE, unsinkable
Built in glass-epoxy-plywood

[jalmberg]

Well, I just answered this question for myself, anyway... just bought a 23' "Blue Moon".

http://www.identry.com/downloads/master/bluemoon.jpg

Needs painting, but otherwise she's in great shape. The cabin is nearly empty... just a bunk. A good boat to continue practicing my building skills on, while doing some sailing.

-- John

[Maximus]

Good for you John, slap some lipstick on her and show us some more pictures! Enjoy your project!

[floatingkiwi]

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/s/cc_images/cache_1314715417.jpg?t=1238416782
Can sit inside out of the weather yet sail the boat and see as well as being on top with that bubble. Cool.

Maximus. Do you havicus any more info on this boaticus? What is she called?

[jalmberg]

Good for you John, slap some lipstick on her and show us some more pictures! Enjoy your project!

I will! She's in NW Florida at the moment. I'm back in NY for the holiday, but preparing right now to fly back down. I'm going to haul her, paint her, and then sail her back to my home waters of Long Island Sound.

Will probably do it in several stages: From NW Florida to the east coast of Florida, and then up the coast as the weather warms up.

It will be the longest sail, by far, that I've ever done, so should be very interesting.

[Woxbox]

Those bubbles have been done before, going way back. The biggest problem is fogging. You can stick your head in there, but don't exhale!

[paladin]

Floatingkiwi....


Paladin. A fresh loaf of sourdough bread is not something one would find floating about in the middle of the ocean. Good on ya.
You weathered the conditions with relative ease and the Al Mason was trashed. Was this due ,completely, to your preparing yourself and vessel with the drogue, whilst the fish food fiddled with radio knobs? God rest their poor weary souls, I always wonder what their last moments were like.
Apparently the series drogue is, nowadays , far more efficient connected to the stern.Do you do this?


I wouldn't knock the designer.....I had been monitoring radio traffic with this boat for a couple of days. They had one day to shake the boat down after picking it up at the builders....They had had several equipment failures since leaving port and had reported engine loss, intermittent electrical problems, and something to do with rigging as I recall. The delivery crew seemed a bit unhappy, just my personal thoughts from the radio traffic.

[PeterSibley]

What sort of budget? That should be the limiting factor in this kind of contest, not an arbitrary length. And we've got to assume the owner just wants to build his own boat, not buy a bargain plastic thing.

Is $10,000 unreasonably low. $20,000 too much?

The budget presents real difficulties , what I could aquire by way of timber for $20,000 living in the country as against my city cousins is remarkable .
$20k however doesn't seem an unreasonable amount of money for a multiyear project .

[paladin]

I am in the middle of altering/updating some drawings I made in the early 70's for a 21 foot offshore boat. I am convinced that it's a good round the world boat if someone is so inclined. With a little diligence, and a person to do work without trying to buy every power tool for sale, this boat could well be built and rigged for 20K, use good rigging, deck gear, ground tackle, sails, and a 2 burner stove and 6 inches of insulation in a e and you have long range refrigeration. The rudder would be outboard with a trim tab, powered by a wind vane or an electric device with a gyrocompass. The beam is a hair over 8 feet.
The stations/frames are layed out so as to be 24 inches apart, no other frames required, laminated backbone, stem, etc.....frames laminated, full sized drawings for hardware, make from SS or bronze.

someone may like it.

[PeterSibley]

Quite frankly Chuck I think I can build my 31 foot cutter for $20k .....if I build like a country boatbuilder in 1920 .

[floatingkiwi]

I am in the middle of altering/updating some drawings I made in the early 70's for a 21 foot offshore boat. I am convinced that it's a good round the world boat if someone is so inclined. With a little diligence, and a person to do work without trying to buy every power tool for sale, this boat could well be built and rigged for 20K, use good rigging, deck gear, ground tackle, sails, and a 2 burner stove and 6 inches of insulation in a e and you have long range refrigeration. The rudder would be outboard with a trim tab, powered by a wind vane or an electric device with a gyrocompass. The beam is a hair over 8 feet.
The stations/frames are layed out so as to be 24 inches apart, no other frames required, laminated backbone, stem, etc.....frames laminated, full sized drawings for hardware, make from SS or bronze.

someone may like it.
Remember this electronic device with gyrocompass?
I am still to try and get this thing operating.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9d811b3127ccec72833a11b2a00000047100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9d811b3127ccec728d3dd1b2600000047100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

[floatingkiwi]

Floatingkiwi....




I wouldn't knock the designer.....I had been monitoring radio traffic with this boat for a couple of days. They had one day to shake the boat down after picking it up at the builders....They had had several equipment failures since leaving port and had reported engine loss, intermittent electrical problems, and something to do with rigging as I recall. The delivery crew seemed a bit unhappy, just my personal thoughts from the radio traffic.
Those poor unfortunate souls. Sounds like they were still arguing and swapping ideas when one of them noticed,"hey, it's gettin' a bit windy guys"!

[paladin]

What is that gyroscupie thingie...and what are you trying to do?

[JimD]

...I am in the middle of altering/updating some drawings I made in the early 70's for a 21 foot offshore boat...

Of course you realize this requires pics.

[paladin]

Eventually....just got the prints from the blueprint house of Chelaydra and the sections, now have to add the Table of Offsets for a couple/three of youse weenies....
On the boat, 21 footer, think a sightly smaller version of the pardeys first boat, with flatter sections aft and the beam carried a bit farther aft, different house...

[floatingkiwi]

What is that gyroscupie thingie...and what are you trying to do?
I aint trying to do anything with it at present but when the time comes it might as well be put to the use it was designed and built to do.
Don't you remember this thing mate? I have asked you about it before.http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9d811b3127ccec728d3dd1b2600000047100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a
The black globe on the left is what I would consider a gyroscopic compass, that can be dialed to a desired setting or direction and it controls an eletric motor that is part of the yoke, visible to the right, where the tiller can be mounted. The whole thing is suspended in the cockpit with its own brackets. The cover is behind. Made in the sixties. I reckon it will go good once I determine the fault.

[andrewe]

Do you have a sketch? Just to keep us engaged.
A

[paladin]

I'm trying to wrap my eyes around it to get an idea of the actual size....

[floatingkiwi]

Ok. I hope these help.http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbeb145fc000000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a


http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb9f4fde9100000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbb2079e5700000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbfa4e1f0a00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

[paladin]

O.K. It's an oversized Tiller Master.....do you have the schematics? and what is the name, model number....tell me what it does or doesn't do......

[donald branscom]

First, sorry for the length of this post but this idea has been eating at me; it’s apropos of this thread and I need to get it out to ask for your collective opinion.

How about really designing this boat for those of us with restricted working space, like the typical one-car garage? As has been discussed, it’s certainly possible to build a frame at a time, laminate the stem and put it aside, etc… But I’m not talking about just the piece parts. Eventually all the pieces have to come together someplace where the hull can all be laid out, full length.

Building a 20+ ft boat in a one-car garage means that at some point you’re either going to have to a) buy a house with a bigger garage, or b) build a shop if you have the land to do that, or c) rent a working space if you can find one. Maybe you can’t move anytime soon and you live on a postage stamp-sized lot, so a) and b) are out. As for option c), I’ve found that storage space is easy and reasonably cheap to rent, space you can work in – not so much. And if the work space isn’t right outside your back door (or in your garage) the amount of productive time applied to the project will be much limited by the time lost to traveling to where the boat is.

So it occurred to me that boats have sometimes been lengthened by cutting them in half, inserting a new section and sewing them back together again. I also saw on Discovery Channel (IIRC) a show about an icebreaking freighter that was assembled from separate halves constructed at two different shipyards several hundred miles apart.

Why can’t our hypothetical minimal offshore cruising boat be built in two separate halves, each small enough to fit in the one-car garage? Assemble the first half and store it while you’re assembling the second half. This would delay the need to relocate the project to a place where the whole hull can come together and also minimize the length of time the larger space would be needed.

Yes, I know it complicates the structure and makes it a bit heavier; probably need to have matching frames at the section ends and accommodate a way to splice the main longitudinal members. But since it’s likely to be a full displacement boat the extra weight shouldn’t hurt and may just lessen the need for additional ballast. Getting the sections properly aligned to nail them together could also be kind of fiddly, but that’s what wedges and jack stands are for. So what do you all think? Impractical? Wrong headed? Stupidest thing you ever heard? Possible?

Read about TINKERBELLE. 13 feet.

[floatingkiwi]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8ba8f747fde00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8ba2822be7300000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb5325de9d00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8ba6c06be7500000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8ba79237ff200000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb356adee100000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

[floatingkiwi]

Cripes, those pics are hard to read eh Chuck?
I can make em clear if you wish.
The motor mounted on the toothed rail, that steers the boat, works when I hook up neg-pos to its terminals, but the whole unit is lacking control from its compass..
I hope this isn't distracting from the original intent of this thread. I just thought it foolish not to go with the help of someone like Chuck here, while his eye is on it.

[floatingkiwi]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb5e3d9e1b00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb06261f1c00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbea819efd00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

I suppose you would need to have the thing in front of you to determine the exact fault, right?

[paladin]

Maybe not...if you can give an accurate description of precisely what it does or doesn't do when you command it to do something.....and I have the schematics, I can trace problems to a fair degree.......I'll see about some documentation....

[floatingkiwi]

The only literature I have is what I posted. I can taks macro shots of the circuitry etc if that would help.

[floatingkiwi]

The only response I get from it is by shorting the terminals on the motor drive one way or another.Sending electricity through the system, or at least the attempt of it, results in zit.

[paladin]

The other part of it is a bridge amplifier circuit that directs the motot drive forward or reverse and how far to go...there's a balance circuit that probably has some large audio type transistors that act as power amps/drivers...or maybe the bridge circuit is gone. I could build one from scratch if I knew the specs on the gyro output...but I'll see what I can come up with after the holidays, 'cause there ain't agonna be nobody from the old company available....

[floatingkiwi]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbf2121f5200000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bbdf7e5fb000000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb12761f4600000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bb5f7bdec500000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8bab97cfefd00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc02b3127ccef8ba80953fa000000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

[OconeePirate]

The electronics for that thing today would probably be smaller than a cigarette box yet impossible to fix if anything went wrong.

[paladin]

The photo with the six little transistor cans could be the control circuit.....have someone check the transistors to see if they are good.....

[floatingkiwi]

The transistors are Germanium PNP alloy junction. The 2N404. The more I learn about these things, the more I will just take it to an electronics shop where I buy computer stuff and have them test and replace if necessary, like you suggest.
I can't figure out where the base, collector and emmiter are positioned and they are all different.

[paladin]

When I get home I'll print out the specs and send an outline drawing with suggestions....Those transistors will probably be very expensive....maybe 10-15 for a dollar.....can you unsolder them (you'll need a small 45 watt electronics iron) and some solder wick etc.....I can send some if you're not in a hurry, I use it by the box.

[Maximus]

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/works-and-creations/souriceau-4-75m-micro-cruiser/

Here's the link to the boat I posted earlier.

[JimD]

http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/works-and-creations/souriceau-4-75m-micro-cruiser/

Here's the link to the boat I posted earlier.

I like the retractable bulb keel.

[Maximus]

I'd like to have a slightly bigger version of the mini-mouse, just to have a big more comfort and storage. Maybe something around 18 ft.

[donald branscom]

No they don't, at least in my experience.
Trust me, the word get around quickly in the marinas. The Coast Guard is not far behind.

[Tomcat]

"At a point in my life, Jim Brown, The trimaran whiz,"

Speaking of whom... He has a new 20 foot trimaran design coming out this year. Not offshore intended though.

I once looked into a Tiki21 and decided I probably couldn't fit in there. Nontheless, it has circumnavigated in the glass version:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010225084453/http://www.multihulls.uk.com/pca/rory.htm

It is a nice looking boat, and could be done for around 10k or less for the structure.

http://tiki21element.blogspot.com/2006/03/wharram-tiki-21-catamaran.html

I tend to look at the various offshore rowing boats for some inspiration. I think such a beast with amas and sensible rig would be fairly practical.

As far as building is concerned, the process is determinative. You can build some boats like Jim Brown's constant camber wood boats from molds in your garage, and they pop together with minimal parts out of doors, and few worries about good weather (as long as you get at least some). I wouldn't let the length of a garage determine boat size, so long as the building process was well thought out, and the project wasn't too elastic. This is where designing one's own boat is so much better. One never specifies a part that one will have difficulty finding, or methods out of tune with one's capacities. Not so with building the boats of others.

Jones' Hummingbird is a good example of a boat that could be easy to build and has learned a lot of the lessons of boats like Jestor, and doesn't have many expensive parts.

http://www.jonesboats.com/hummingbird.html

[Sailing Dreams]

The question is do you want to go sailing of do you want to build a boat - if the latter that's fine, but there are so many cheap old boats around which will take you where you want to go for not much money, if sailing is your goal why build?

We bought a tough 30 year old grp crusier, did some minimal fixing up like rebuiling the galley and repacing the riggine. Water storage was arranged in lots of plastic 25 litre jerrcans placed all around the boat. Two hand held GPS's took us from UK, to Africa and the Caribbean and back for a minimal amount.

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/christmas-tail-part-1.html

That's not to say that I'm against creating and building from new, the best justification to me is to get a boat that you can't buy - that's the opportunity - some great ideas expresse in this post

[ishmael]

Um, to the original question, I think Gile's Vertue. A folkboat would be a close second, though it's considerably smaller.