Jack Holt, The Mirror and its many subsequent adventures.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Not sure if WB has done this yet, but I reckon it'd be a corker of a story!

http://www.ukmirrorsailing.com/gallery/Westerns%20sept%202001/images/DCP_0471_JPG.jpg

I look forward to waking up in the morning to see what you guys have to say! :)

[Duncan Gibbs]

I mean what's not to love about 'em??

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1356/1323696125_71cda2b676.jpg

They're everywhere too!! :D

http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_85O4O6848.jpg

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

NOW here is a story that should be covered in WoodenBoat magazine...there is time in hand to do it justice in an article:

We are coming up to the centenary of Jack Holt's birth (1912) in 2012.

Arguably the greatest dinghy designer of all time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Holt_(dinghy_designer)

The Cadet, the Enterprise, the GP14, the Heron, the Hornet, the Lazy E, the Miracle, the Mirror, the Solo, the Streaker, the Vagabond and that's just the one designs - he also designed for most of the restricted classes and development classes.

His business partner was Beecher Moore, who besides being conveniently American from the reader interest point of view would make an article in his own right (invented the trapeze - on his Thames Rater, etc...)

And of course Holt-Allen are very much in business.

(OBTW - yes the Mirror was the first stitch and tape boat and was a joint effort by Jack Holt and Barry Bucknell the "TV DIY expert" of the 1960s and proverbially Holt was brought in to "breathe on" Bucknell's original design, but not so many people know that Bucknell was a 10sq.m.IC sailor)

[damnyankee]

NOW here is a story that should be covered in WoodenBoat magazine...there is time in hand to do it justice in an article:

We are coming up to the centenary of Jack Holt's birth (1912) in 2012.

Arguably the greatest dinghy designer of all time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Holt_(dinghy_designer) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Holt_%28dinghy_designer%29)

The Cadet, the Enterprise, the GP14, the Heron, the Hornet, the Lazy E, the Miracle, the Mirror, the Solo, the Streaker, the Vagabond and that's just the one designs - he also designed for most of the restricted classes and development classes.

His business partner was Beecher Moore, who besides being conveniently American from the reader interest point of view would make an article in his own right (invented the trapeze - on his Thames Rater, etc...)

And of course Holt-Allen are very much in business.

(OBTW - yes the Mirror was the first stitch and tape boat and was a joint effort by Jack Holt and Barry Bucknell the "TV DIY expert" of the 1960s and proverbially Holt was brought in to "breathe on" Bucknell's original design, but not so many people know that Bucknell was a 10sq.m.IC sailor)
Sounds like some ones already got the article 1/2 written ;)
Does Woodenboat take submissions?
Christopher

[Old Sailor]

I built a Mirror back in the 60's. Sure was fun! Later I built the Mirror 16 which was a very hot boat but it never caught on.
Old Sailor

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Sounds like some ones already got the article 1/2 written ;)
Does Woodenboat take submissions?
Christopher

Not me - but I know a man who could - and I'm going to send him a link to this.

[Scot]

Here's a listing from the WoodenBoat on-line index. First # is the issue, second is the page the article begins. Link to the index: http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/idx/

Designer profiles: Holt, Jack (England), 74:64

Holt, Jack, designer (England): Currents, 190:12

Holt, Jack, designer (England): Mirror dinghy, 23:88

Holt, Jack, designer (England): profile, photo, 74:64

Mickleburgh, Timothy, author: "Jack Holt, A Brilliant Career in Dinghies," 74:64

Sailing dinghy: designs/Jack Holt, 74:64

[Scot]

DY:

Yes, WB takes submissions.

http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/guide-lines.html

is a link to editorial guidelines.

[The Bigfella]

...snip....
(OBTW - yes the Mirror was the first stitch and tape boat and was a joint effort by Jack Holt and Barry Bucknell the "TV DIY expert" of the 1960s and proverbially Holt was brought in to "breathe on" Bucknell's original design, but not so many people know that Bucknell was a 10sq.m.IC sailor)


Not quite the first... (not wishing to become a pedant.... but).....


The stitch and glue method was developed by woodwork teacher Ken Littledyke for the manufacture of canoes (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Canoe), using plywood panels joined by fiberglass tape and resin. The technique was then popularised by the first TV (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Television) DIY (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/DIY) expert, Barry Bucknell (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Barry_Bucknell), in about 1964. The method was adopted, substituting copper wire ties rather than fishing line as in the early Littledyke examples, for the construction of the Mirror Dinghy (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Mirror_(dinghy)). The Mirror is so named because the design was sponsored by The Daily Mirror (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Daily_Mirror) newspaper, a fact reflected by the historically red sails. The Daily Mirror apparently wanted to bring cheap sailing to the masses. As such, unlike other construction techniques of the day, which required specialist skills and tools, Stitch and Glue was supposed to put boat-building within the reach of the average public.
Stitch and glue is similar to a traditional form of boatbuilding from northern Europe (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Europe), particularly Lapland (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/S%C3%A1pmi_(area)), called sewn boats (http://www.woodenboat.com/wiki/Sewn_boat). It is not known if Littledyke's development of the stitch and glue methods was influenced by the sewn boat technique.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_and_tape

[Duncan Gibbs]

Not me - but I know a man who could - and I'm going to send him a link to this.

Matt and Carl haven't commented as yet on this idea. Have you heard anything from your friend Andrew? Is he interested?

[solitude]

I have fond memories of the Mirror Dinghy. I helped my father build one when I was a boy. That experience has stayed with me, and now I am contemplating a stitch and glue diesel pocket cruiser.

[Hwyl]

Here's a listing from the WoodenBoat on-line index. First # is the issue, second is the page the article begins. Link to the index: http://www.woodenboat.com/wbmag/idx/

Designer profiles: Holt, Jack (England), 74:64

Holt, Jack, designer (England): Currents, 190:12

Holt, Jack, designer (England): Mirror dinghy, 23:88

Holt, Jack, designer (England): profile, photo, 74:64

Mickleburgh, Timothy, author: "Jack Holt, A Brilliant Career in Dinghies," 74:64

Sailing dinghy: designs/Jack Holt, 74:64

I tried pumping "Herresshoff" into you search and got scores and scores of results. I think Jack Holt is worth more than the three issues you've mentioned him in

[Hwyl]

Not me - but I know a man who could - and I'm going to send him a link to this.

Could be written by Jenny Bennett too

[Sayla]

http://users.tpg.com.au/landsend/Lake Cootharaba.jpgI
Here's a Mirror I restored some years back - it's in the lounge room now and the kids play pirates in it - we take it out through the surf when it's small - bit hairy, but there's a few gutters here

Bought it broken down and real cheap, but it had all the bits - the guy who sold it to me advertised "Mirror" in the general newspaper classifieds - luckily my Uncle had one so I suspected that the add mighn't be for a looking glass - the guy said I was the only one that phoned.......

[ahp]

One should read the recent book, "The Unlikely Voyage of Jack de Crow" by A.J. Mackinnon. The author was given a beat up Mirror, patched it up, and with very little boating experience took it from western England to the Black Sea, on its own bottom!

[Old Sailor]

Who designed the Mirror 16? I understand that the templates have gone missing.
Old Sailor

[Duncan Gibbs]

One should read the recent book, "The Unlikely Voyage of Jack de Crow" by A.J. Mackinnon. The author was given a beat up Mirror, patched it up, and with very little boating experience took it from western England to the Black Sea, on its own bottom!

An absolutely ripping yarn! Very, very funny and very, very eloquent. I also found passages in book book very moving, particularly when he writes about the people of Serbia. And what an incredible voyage!

[Duncan Gibbs]

Who designed the Mirror 16? I understand that the templates have gone missing.
Old Sailor

I don't know who designed it, but it's one fugly boat: I have a particularly intense dislike of reverse sheers!

[Larks]

An absolutely ripping yarn! Very, very funny and very, very eloquent. I also found passages in book book very moving, particularly when he writes about the people of Serbia. And what an incredible voyage!

Hey Duncan - ummm-- any chance of borrowing it - when you're finished of course if you haven't already??:o

[Hwyl]

I don't know who designed it, but it's one fugly boat: I have a particularly intense dislike of reverse sheers!


WE disagree again, it was designed by Jack Holt, a bundle of compromises, like all his boats.

How many times have newbies asked for a fast, reefable, light, unsinkable camping cruiser.

The "he of dubious taste" thinks it's "fugly" only adds to it's allure.

I remember the Daily Mirror announcing them

[Duncan Gibbs]

Hey Duncan - ummm-- any chance of borrowing it - when you're finished of course if you haven't already??:o

I've borrowed it from a friend myself, so it's not mine to lend unfortunately. Otherwise I would. :o

[Duncan Gibbs]

WE disagree again, it was designed by Jack Holt, a bundle of compromises, like all his boats.

How many times have newbies asked for a fast, reefable, light, unsinkable camping cruiser.

The "he of dubious taste" thinks it's "fugly" only adds to it's allure.

I remember the Daily Mirror announcing them

If the sheer were to be corrected I would, without hesitation, drop the "fugly" descriptor from my opinion:

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/images/mirror16.jpg

I've been told it's performance is quite good: There has been one that attends a few of the classic boat regattas around here. But... Call me fussy, call me "he of dubious taste" if you will, but I cannot help see an pre-resemblance in the hull form to that of the bloody stink boats that drag people around on small bits of wood or carbon fibre at high speed. If that makes your back arch Gareth go for it! Every boat designer has more than likely produced one ugly duckling and the Mirror 16 is surely Jack Holt's.

[62816inBerlin]

While the 16 (I have never consciously seen one in real life) may not be beautiful, the few owners who have posted information seem to have been happy enough with their craft.
Remember this was supposed to be a simple "do it yourself" boat for unexperienced woodworkers. In that light, the Mirror 16 is more aesthetically pleasing than many of the other slab-sided, square-bowed, flat-bottomed or other craft that are touted as belonging in this category (not wishing to belittle the work of a recently-deceased designer). I believe it handles more like a real sailboat than many of those designs, even though I admire PDRs and the like.

Gernot H. ;-{)

[Duncan Gibbs]

The PDR is so ugly it's cute! :D
My only complaint with the 16 is the sheer. I think it ruins the appearance of an otherwise great sail boat.

[Hwyl]

It seems from the boat design dot net thread that about 60% of the survivors of the Mirror 16 are in Brisbane. I see one in Duncans future.

[bucheron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_16 says "The Mirror 16 . . . . design project was headed by Jack Holt."

After the Australia II design controversy this week I am not quite game to say "Jack Holt designed the Mirror 16".

I am amazed by the number of people who say the Mirror 16 is ugly, even some owners. To me looks are not a terribly important aspect of design in small craft. After all, I am sitting in the boat using it, I cannot see it, so how well it works matters to me a lot more.

I must look closer at some Mirror 16s. The sheer may well be straight, but of course when a sailboat heels, a straight sheer will look reversed.


They are comfortable, well-behaved and carry a good load for camp-cruising. There is a generous sail area to make one sail fast if that's what you want to do.

The Wooden Boat Association of Queensland (Australia) has 3 Mirror 16s in its fleet, with a couple more "in the offing".

[Duncan Gibbs]

It seems from the boat design dot net thread that about 60% of the survivors of the Mirror 16 are in Brisbane. I see one in Duncans future.

It makes a certain degree of sense really! :D

[Duncan Gibbs]

[URL]I must look closer at some Mirror 16s. The sheer may well be straight, but of course when a sailboat heels, a straight sheer will look reversed.

It's ever so slightly reversed, but on the heal this is certainly emphasised. One must realise that I am an unabashed aesthete! :D:rolleyes:

Gareth, I'm sure, draws great pleasure in mocking this quality in me. "Repressed" is his descriptor! :rolleyes:

[62816inBerlin]

The Wooden Boat Association of Queensland (Australia) has 3 Mirror 16s in its fleet, with a couple more "in the offing".

Does that mean that the boats are being restored, or are you building new boats (from plans?)? Or is the 16 tied to a "kit manufacturer licence" scheme like the traditional Mirror?

Gernot H.

[Hwyl]

Gernot, I spent two hours reading this yesterday. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wooden-boat-building-restoration/mirror-16-foot-sailing-dinghy-12064.html

They are recreating plans and documenting all the existing Mirror 16's. It's really a fascinating insight into the perseverance and leadership of one person.

[Canoeyawl]

The Book "The Unlikely Voyage of Jack de Crow" by A.J. Mackinnon is still available new - or used from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1574091522/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used) for ten bucks

[62816inBerlin]

Gernot, I spent two hours reading this yesterday. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wooden-boat-building-restoration/mirror-16-foot-sailing-dinghy-12064.html


Shucks! I just spent 2 h which should have been working time (I am self-employed) going through that thread too, now.
Fascinating how a material object can bind human attention.
I checked out the Portsmouth Yardstick issue, having started my serious sailing as trapeze monkey on a Flying Dutchman (VERY MANY moons ago). The value is only two points off the FD, which was considered to be among the fastest dinghies in its time - that makes the M16 quite a performer.

FYI: the Mirror discussion forum had to move to Multiply, not a good choice as that is not a real forum site. But I'm sure our members would welcome a fast-growing M16 section!

Gernot H.

[Hwyl]

They devalued the Portsmouth Yardstick by 20%, quite a few years ago. I'm sure the Mirror and the FD don't compare. It's very likely a mix up in "old money" and "new money"

[EastCoastChris]

I mean what's not to love about 'em??

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1356/1323696125_71cda2b676.jpg


I learnt to sail on that lake !! :D

Chris

[62816inBerlin]

I learnt to sail on that lake !! :D

Chris

Well, shall we have a guessing competition as to where it is?
Rudyard reservoir - site of the Floating Mirror-rig-powered-triumph-herald event? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl3bsL7Nbnk)

[EastCoastChris]

Well, shall we have a guessing competition as to where it is?

Go on then, I'm 100% certain I know it. I'll point out why if someone guesses.

Rudyard reservoir, Staffordshire, Uk. - Nope :)

Chris

[EastCoastChris]

No takers, I'm not surprised the prizes were rubbish. :D

It's Ripon Sailing Club (http://www.ripon-sc.org.uk/) at Farnham, North Yorkshire.

Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Harrogate,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.034595,-1.471138&spn=0.011745,0.058622&t=h&z=15)

Chris

[62816inBerlin]

No takers, I'm not surprised the prizes were rubbish. :D

It's Ripon Sailing Club (http://www.ripon-sc.org.uk/) at Farnham, North Yorkshire.

Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Harrogate,+United+Kingdom&ll=54.034595,-1.471138&spn=0.011745,0.058622&t=h&z=15)

Chris

Thanks for the solution, sounds as if they're a fiery crowd:
>>>>>we need volunteers to help with the following tasks on the night:

Lighting the fireworks (extra helpers)
Erecting safety fencing
Sorting out the fireworks and looking after the bonfire once lit
<<<<<<<


:D Gernot H.

[frank pedersen]

I think the Mirror 16 was intended to be an alternative to the Wayfarer. The Wayfarer is likely somewhat more difficult to build and construction was only possible by buying a kit. It was the class's attempt to control tolerances so that tight one-design specifications would hold up. Currently, kits are not available because of the concern that a racing advantage might be possible through an optimized build that would still measure in. If plans were available for the Mirror 16, I think it could be quite popular. I have not seen one, but if it has some of the features of the Wayfarer it would be a great beach cruiser as well as family-friendly daysailer.

I hope to have my kit-built Wayfarer in the water this coming spring. I got it when two previous builders gave up or lost interest because of their slow progress. It will replace my single-owner 35 yr. old fg boat.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Here's an original Mirror Dinghy kit for sale on ebay in the UK. 32 years old! Could I ask, would the ply still hold together? Even though it's been stored well, wouldn't the glue be past it?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150389937780&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT#ht_602wt_958

Brian

[andrewe]

Brian, I don't think the glue in the ply is a problem as it would be a type of recorcinol. The problem was the use of polyester resin with the taped seams. If the kit was stored dry, should be good to go, with epoxy & tape though.
Andrew

Some-one mentioned that the kits were often from non 1088 ply, but I doubt that.

Also there was talk at the Mirror 'launch' that Bucknel was influenced by the Vikings method of sewing their clinker longships together. Inclined to think that was PR.
A

[RFNK]

The Encyclopedia of Yacht Designers (Knight and MacNaughton, 2006) lists Peter Milne as the designer of the Mirror (aka Marauder). It makes no mention of any Jack Holt or any of his boats. Disappointing for me that the Heron and the Lazy E are not mentioned at all in this book. Rick

[Hwyl]

The Mirror Marauder was a different boat Rick. The Mirror Dinghy is an update on his International Cadet.

[RFNK]

Thanks, I guess it's the `Mirror' title that's thrown me. I'm guessing that Peter Milne entered the Mirror Newspaper's competition with his Marauder design, calling it the Mirror 14 for the purpose of the competition then renaming it the Marauder later? Certainly surprising that Holt didn't make it into the Encyclopedia though isn't it - the Mirror has been an incredibly successful boat! I wonder how many other great designers didn't make it to the Encyclopedia? Rick

[Hwyl]

A sad reflection on the class system I'd say. He only designed dinghies and the one popular keelboat, the YW diamond, so it could be construed that he did not design "Yachts".

[RFNK]

A sad reflection on the class system I'd say. He only designed dinghies and the one popular keelboat, the YW diamond, so it could be construed that he did not design "Yachts".


Could be right but unlikely, I'd say, as there are other designers in the book who only designed dinghies etc. For example, Hobie Alter and Riva are given fairly extensive coverage. I wonder if Holt was simply overlooked or there was a conscious decision to exclude particular `classes' or types of designer. Maybe I should read the book more closely instead of simply drooling over the pictures! Rick

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Jack Holt's business partner was Beecher Moore, iirc, who was, iirc, as upper class as you can get - a wealthy American businessman with an inherited fortune (which he added to) in office machines, who chose to live in London and iirc was known for his parties as well as being a noted dinghy sailor.

In Britain the class aspect whilst not absent from dinghy sailing should not be taken at face value - the very idea of dinghy sailing was "sailing for the masses" and whilst a new I14 has always been a very expensive boat the National 12 was intended to be cheap and the postwar classes were aimed at affordability.

Dinghy sailing was an area where the different classes rubbed together quite happily, I reckon.

[Presuming Ed]

Could be right but unlikely, I'd say, as there are other designers in the book who only designed dinghies etc. For example, Hobie Alter and Riva are given fairly extensive coverage. I wonder if Holt was simply overlooked or there was a conscious decision to exclude particular `classes' or types of designer. Maybe I should read the book more closely instead of simply drooling over the pictures! Rick

Seems to have been overlooked because not American, then? American chief editors and an American publisher.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I should point out that politics entered the dinghy sailing world early on; the Enterprise (designed by Jack Holt) was originally sponsored by the News Chronicle, a Liberal paper which was swallowed by the very Tory Daily Mail in 1960 and has blue sails whilst the Mirror, also designed by Jack Holt, was sponsored by the reliably Labour Daily Mirror and has red sails.... ;)

[JimJ]

the Enterprise (designed by Jack Holt) was originally sponsored by the News Chronicle, a Liberal paper which was swallowed by the very Tory Daily Mail in 1960 and has blue sails

Now I know why I liked my Enterprise.

[John Meachen]

Just to get an idea of the number of boats built to Jack Holt's designs I started pondering,please feel free to add classes I may have overlooked.Ten thousand or so Cadets,Seventy thousand Mirror 10's,a couple of thousand Streakers,nine thousand Herons,four and a half thousand Solos,fifteen hundred Pacers,twenty two thousand Enterprises,fourteen thousand GP14s and a little over two thousand Hornets.Surely a man eminently qualified for recognition of his endeavours.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Maybe an entire section of "launchings" and "re-launchings" devoted to Holt's designs as well!

[RFNK]

Surely a man eminently qualified for recognition of his endeavours.
Hard to argue with that! Where'd you get the figures John? Rick

[Duncan Gibbs]

Just got a picture of The Mighty Pippin in full flight from the BBQ boat on which the office Christmas party was held:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/22509441/380796032.jpg

What's not to love about a Mirror? :)

[Hwyl]

Hard to argue with that! Where'd you get the figures John? Rick
From sail numbers I'd guess.

There's also the YW Diamond, I think about 1000

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/index.asp

[John Meachen]

From sail numbers I'd guess.

There's also the YW Diamond, I think about 1000

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/index.asp

Absolutely correct about the sail numbers.Who knows how many more were built and never registered?There were a few less than stellar successes-I have seen a Lazy E and one of the mercifully few Jacksnipes.

[RFNK]

Yes, I understand the numbers are based on sail numbers but where did you see them? Did you go to each class site or ...? Rick

[62816inBerlin]

Just got a picture of The Mighty Pippin in full flight from the BBQ boat on which the office Christmas party was held:

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/22509441/380796032.jpg

What's not to love about a Mirror? :)

Hey Duncan, (ENVY) that's a great picture. Looks like you really had fun!
BTW, are youdown as a member on the Mirror discussion forum?

All the best to you (and to all other readers of this thread) for the New Year!

Gernot H.

[John Meachen]

Yes, I understand the numbers are based on sail numbers but where did you see them? Did you go to each class site or ...? Rick
Forty years of dinghy sailing has taken me to numerous sailing venues and more than a few dinghy shows.In addition,each year one of the British sailing magazines publishes a racing classes supplement listing most of the popular classes and including a number of statistics from dimensions to latest sail number.In the case of Jack Holt's boats,the sail numbers are fairly meaningful as they are issued on payment of a modest registration fee when the boat is complete.Not all builders have registered their boats and there are likely to be a number which have never shown in the statistics.

[Duncan Gibbs]

BTW, are youdown as a member on the Mirror discussion forum?

No I'm not mate. You gave me the link once before, but I can't find it any more. Can you please post it again here?

All the best to you (and to all other readers of this thread) for the New Year!

Same to you Gernot! Happy and prosperous new year mate!

[Duncan Gibbs]

BTW John, last time I looked at any of the class association web sites for the Mirror the sail numbers were well into the 79,000s. I should try and find any history associated with mine: 32141.

[RFNK]

Thanks John. Sorry, another question - which magazine prints the supplement? I'd like to see this. Rick

[Hwyl]

Here you go Duncan
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Women-in-wooden-boats-top-the-fleet-at-the-Australian-Mirror-Champs/65260
You should have been there. The magazine has to print something now.

They're Tassies of course, not sure what the fabric things are, spinnaker chutes?

http://www.sail-world.com/photos/Alt_Mirror%20Nats%200910%20upwind%20close.jpg

[62816inBerlin]

Hey - those gals are the Junior Champions and second-placed crew in OZ in 2008/09 !

RE: FORUM
Here's the link to the MDF, Duncan: http://mirrordiscussforum.multiply.com/

I'm afraid it's rather un-forum-like, but Microsoft suggested we move there when they closed down MSN. Pete Kaiser, who set it up, is an Ontario Mirror Dinghy Association member.
Personally I was hoping that the forum could be moved to the international class association site: http://www.mirrorsailing.org/ , as that would be an ideal international meeting place. Unfortunately neither I nor the site admins have been able to organize this.

RE: SAIL NUMBERS
Possibly the numbers were issued to manufacturers/kit makers in blocks. That means that possibly not all 70 k + boats were actually ever built - but even if half that number is true, then 35 000 is a BIG fleet.
BTW, for some reason I have The Mighty Pippin down in the roll call list as having number 30141 and not 32141 - which is actually correct?

Have to go out and shovel snow now !

Gernot H.

[John Meachen]

Thanks John. Sorry, another question - which magazine prints the supplement? I'd like to see this. Rick
Yachts and Yachting have published the dinghy review in late November for many years.The latest edition covers round 130 classes.

[RFNK]

Thanks John, I'll see if I can get it here. Rick

[Duncan Gibbs]

Ooops! I meant 30141 Gernot! My mistake!! :o

Love to get to Albany next year, but unless I'm feeling richer and my station wagon is restored by then I doubt it'll happen.

[frank pedersen]

I saw that plans for the YW Diamond are available from the Y.W. Diamond Association of Australia for a very reasonable price ($60.00), but I could not find a way to place an order. Our host Carl Cramer has been talking up the 210 class as an affordable way to get into keelboat racing, but that class does not allow owner-built boats. The Diamond might be a great possibility as an alternative. The class rules prohibit exotic materials like carbon fiber and have other restrictions to keep costs realistic. Given recent trends in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta, it would undoubtedly qualify as a Spirit of Tradition A Division boat.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Frank, try contacting the association through one of the participating yacht clubs. Here's the email address of one of the main ones: rycv@rycv.asn.au

BTW Gareth, they are spinnaker chutes on the foredeck.

[Sailing Dreams]

I saw that plans for the YW Diamond are available from the Y.W. Diamond Association of Australia for a very reasonable price ($60.00), but I could not find a way to place an order. Our host Carl Cramer has been talking up the 210 class as an affordable way to get into keelboat racing, but that class does not allow owner-built boats. The Diamond might be a great possibility as an alternative. The class rules prohibit exotic materials like carbon fiber and have other restrictions to keep costs realistic. Given recent trends in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta, it would undoubtedly qualify as a Spirit of Tradition A Division boat.

Frank,

co iincidently I came across a set of lines plans

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/yachting-world-diamond.html

there is also some info on black diamond

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/diamond-mystery-boat.html

Which is a much modified YM Diamond, I'm sure it's out of class with the new carbon rudder, Greg is also planning a new keel this year - would make a great spirit of tradition boat

Max

[frank pedersen]

Max,

I am a little confused about who is providing information on bursledonblog, but the pictures of Black Diamond are terrific. The book by Peter Heaton is available through Amazon, so I will check out that article too. I am still unable to post pictures, but maybe someone will look up and post my most favorite sailing photo:WoodenBoat, 1987,#74, pg. 70.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Frank, if you can scan it, email it to me and I can post it.

[frank pedersen]

Duncan, Thanks for your offer. I guess my goal for 2010 should be to forget all this fancy sailing stuff and get my head into the 21st century. I don't have a scanner nor even a printer that works, but, to show you that my priorities are right, I have ordered a new main for my 26 ft. boat, WindSprite. Because plans are not yet available, there is no self-promotion in mentioning that she was inspired by the Y.W. Diamond: www.windspriteyachts.com.

Frank

[Sailing Dreams]

Max,

I am a little confused about who is providing information on bursledonblog, but the pictures of Black Diamond are terrific. The book by Peter Heaton is available through Amazon, so I will check out that article too. I am still unable to post pictures, but maybe someone will look up and post my most favorite sailing photo:WoodenBoat, 1987,#74, pg. 70.

Frank - I am the bursledon blogger, i registered here before i started the blog - sorry for the confusion.

I mentioned Greg in the blog, he's the owner of Black Diamond which is based up at West Mersea on the east coast,

If you want a jpeg copy of the lines plan let me know (email is on bursledon blog).

[62816inBerlin]

..... I have ordered a new main for my 26 ft. boat, WindSprite. Because plans are not yet available, there is no self-promotion in mentioning that she was inspired by the Y.W. Diamond: www.windspriteyachts.com (http://www.windspriteyachts.com).

Frank

Looking at the high freeboard on the picture at the URL, I would say the Windsprite is a clone of a Waarship (see http://www.waarschippers.nl/index.php?id=54) rather than a Diamond.

Waarships are quite popular DIY projects, or project for people buying a hull to fit out according to their own tastes. I don't think they are stitch-and-glue, although most are plywood-planked.

But ... aren't we straying off topic??

Gernot H.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Hey Frank, I got your WS pictures: Thanks for that mate! Nice boat too! :) Shortly after my internet connection went down and I'm now on SWMBO's computer so I'll have to do some jiggery pokery to post the shots, but in the menatime do send me a scan (if you can get one done) of that WBM shot of the YW (unless our hosts have one they could put up here?).

In the meantime here's some shots from the YW Diamond Association Australian webpage:

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/catalog/28200931.jpg

Bit like a cross between in big 16 with a flatter sheer and a Maurader!

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/catalog/56298464.jpg

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/catalog/17242068.jpg

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/catalog/96041506.jpg

http://www.ywdiamond.com.au/store/catalog/73084658.jpg

Ahhh! The West Gate Bridge in the background... Enough to stir an old Melbourne lad's heart!!

[Typhoon]

I used to own a Diamond, fantastic boats. Wish I'd never sold the boat.
Unfortunately, these are the only photos I have:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/typhoonpud/Boat/Diamond001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/typhoonpud/Boat/Diamond026.jpg
If I were building one today and not specifically to class, I'd put a modern rudder on one, they tend to cavitate and really load the tiller up when hard pressed reaching. Definitely build the spinnaker chute into the boat if building one, nothing beats yanking a cord and having the kite go in and out!
Otherwise, I'd change nothing.

Regards, Andrew.

[Duncan Gibbs]

<Duncan could use the thread tools to move that thread to another section.>

Duncan found Gareth's thread and Paul's suggestion and has responded accordingly. :)

[Hwyl]

Thanks

[Duncan Gibbs]

No worries. Didja see the Jan' issue of CB Gareth? Sue Holt returned to England and interviewed in front of Mirror 1. Short but sweet!

[Hwyl]

I posted about it.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Indeed you did! The sudden onset of small children (2 and 4 YOs) to our very quient house has turned my previously alacritous, steel trap of a brain to mush!