More about shellac . . .

[Bill Huson]

Once upon a time I posted about the use of shellac as a moisture resistant finish and was jumped by many on this forum. Seems the purists view shellac as a useless finish. Not so.

Reference: Wooden Boat magazine issue Jan/Feb #200, "Rediscovering Shellac" pg. 31 by Harry Bryan.

I agree with the naysayers that shellac is not the choice of finish on the exterior of a vessel, but I plan to use shellac on my latest project, a Pixie catamaran - Richard Woods design. Woods calls for drain holes and a drain plug in the transom to vent water that will no doubt accumulate in the hulls. Other than the drain plug there are no openings in the hulls, but as we all know, a perfect seal is dream. I now have two coats of WEST on the interior, and before I glue the decks on I am going to liberally coat the interior with shellac. Shellac is light, quick drying, and as Mr Bryan points out, a great finish for moisture exclusion. Of course I could continue to lay on WEST resin (up to six coats for max moisture exclusion) but the idea is to keep the cat light so it will be scary fast.

From the HokeyHydro factory. Motto: Hammer to fit, file to shape, paint to hide!

[TimH]

I would just use ordinary household latex paint. :)

[Jay Greer]

Shellac is great stuff and is grossely overlooked by modern boat builders.
I use it as a sealer under varnish, a sealer under Dolfinite, a glue for plugs, a sealer under canvas decks prior to applying white lead, a sealer on the inside of mast staves, a faying compound for double planking (this is thick stuff that is mixed in the shop from dry flakes) and a coating on steel items that need protection from rust. However, I would opt for varnish for the application you are asking about.
Jay

[Bob Cleek]

I agree with Jay completely and I'll add that shellac is not only the best, but also the most economical product for those purposes. So many of the alternatives are just other examples of marketing types reinventing the wheel in order to charge more for it. Completely safe... you can eat it. (They glaze candy with it.)No doubt somebody will find something wrong with it so it can be outlawed and we'll have to pay five times more for some inferior replacement. Maybe they'll claim the lac beetle is endangered. Wait and see.

[Dan McCosh]

What's the UV resistance?

[Jay Greer]

What's the UV resistance?
Close to 0
Jay

[BETTY-B]

They glaze candy with it? Isnt it bug spittle? That's nasty.

[David G]

They glaze candy with it? Isnt it bug spittle? That's nasty.

You should know by now that shellac is one of the nicer, cleaner things that you'll find in industrially processed foods :p

And... just to be double darned sure... yes, it can be eaten with no ill-effect. That is not to suggest, though, that it can be drunk. What liquefies it is denatured alcohol. I know Mr. Cleek wasn't suggesting that you can drink it, but that you can eat it... after the alcohol has evaporated. I doubt anyone would be tempted to wash down their lunch with the stuff - but if you did, here's an excerpt from the MSDS for denatured alcohol.


Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Ethanol vapors can produce CNS depression, eye and upper respiratory tract irritation. Symptoms may include burning sensation, headache, dizziness, tremors, nausea and other symptoms similar to ingestion.
Ingestion:
Dose-related central nervous system depression occurs, ranging from inebriation to anesthesia, narcosis, coma, respiratory failure, and death in significant exposures. Symptoms include headaches, tremors, fatigue, hallucinations, distorted perceptions, and convulsions.
Skin Contact:
Contact may result in skin dryness with mild irritation and redness.
Eye Contact:
Ethanol vapors irritate the eyes. Splashes cause burning and stinging sensation with watering of the eyes and reflex closure of the lids.
Chronic Exposure:
Chronic ethanol exposure may affect the central nervous system, liver, blood and reproductive system. Examples of chronic effects include physical dependence, malnutrition, neurological effects (e.g., amnesia, dementia, prolonged sleepiness). Chronic ingestion has been associated with cancers of the esophagus and liver. Repeated or prolonged skin contact may result in drying of the skin and dermatitis. Combined exposure to ethanol and certain other chemicals may result in increased toxic effects. Prolonged exposure may affect the kidneys.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing skin disorders, eye problems, liver disease, central nervous system disorders, or impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of the substance.


I also love shellac, and use it for multiple applications. One that hasn't been mentioned is more for interior use. Some folks want to use water-based clear topcoats for "green" reasons. More power to them. The problem is, the water-based topcoats - as presently formulated - leave a thick, bland, plastic-looking finish. I use shellac as the sanding-sealer under such finishes and the shellac penetrates which adds some pop and brings out the grain . It also adds some color (even the super-blonde) which gives the overall finish a more traditional look and warmth.

Prosit,

[Bob Triggs]

They glaze candy with it? Isnt it bug spittle? That's nasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/shellac

[Bill Huson]

What's the UV resistance?

I do not care. The S&G Pixie hull is entirely enclosed, so the surfaces I plan to shellac will never see sunlight after the decks are on, or until Darling Daughter wrecks the Cat during some wild and crazy ride :eek:

[Lew Barrett]

They glaze candy with it? Isnt it bug spittle? That's nasty.

The solvent used to make shellac is alcohol. Not pure grain alcohol, so don't ingest it before it's dry. It's just bug wax from the lac beetle; no big deal Dan. Don't you ever watch Andrew Zimmern? :)

One of the stuff's best quality is that it flashes off rapidly, making it a great wood sealer for those moments when you don't want to hang around watching varnish dry. Every well equipped shop needs some. The more you work on wooden boats, the more respect you gain for so many of the traditional methods.

[Bob Adams]

I glue my bungs with it, but as I don't have access to flakes, I buy a quart and allow the alcohol to evaporate until it thickens.

[jonboy]

Traditional French Polish is shellac... I use it on interior stuff all the time, but I would take issue with it's water resistance... the problem of the classic glass/coffee cup ring on old pianos, tables has been effectively eliminated by the modern urethane varnishes...shellac will mark easily. Beauties as said, cheap, easy, so rapid a drying time you can lay on dozens of coats in a day, a beautiful deep shine unlike anything else...
Cons...I think it is a fragile surface, as above, tracking down the blonde variety is harder than the classic brown flakes (here anyway) it seems reasonably unaffected by UV but it lets UV through, so what's under might be affected...so fast drying that brushing can be difficult...hard edges and suchlike, so put it on with a fad if you can...great for large flat surfaces (the fad) but trickier to master in corners... A good French Polisher can call his own price in the art and antiques world...it ain't easy...
My method is a combo, taught by an old showman who painted his coach and rides in flat flamboyants and then lacced up to get the shine... even using aluminium leaf and shellac to imitate gold leaf at a tenth of the cost... a good dodge for boat names...
prep the wood of course...two coats of thickened cellulose varnish ( called Tapa Poros here, translates as hole filler), rubbed back depending on how open the grain, till almost nothing's left. Shellac coat after coat, cut back between coats. As many as you have the patience to put on. finally cut back with Durax, an alcohol water pumice mix on wire wool. Final coat with a fad, then a quality carnauba or preferably a synthetic micro crystalline wax finish.
I have had a wooden draining board of true cuban mahogany, prepped like this , for twenty years...detergents, hot spills, water, general household abuse... it gets marked, and the integrity of the suface mustn't be compromised ... no chopping or cutting, but a quick cut back with wire wool and wax and it's good for a couple more years
But the protection is the wax... bare shellac won't last without it.
Back to the UV issue, I stained the naturally pinkish mahogany 'mahogany brown' on another job with a water based traditional crystal stain called Vieux Chêne.. Shellacced one half and polyeurethaned the other... The lacced half has faded under all the shellac, the polyeurethaned colour has held, but at the price of the 'plastic' finish it has.

[D Happ]

OK then Bill....just do it. Was it necessary to try and start an argument before doing it? Just do it, and then report back as to its longevity.
Good Luck, it aint gonna work. But since the hulls will be sealed, one will never know will they?

[Jay Greer]

Although I have posted this before, here are a couple of shots of the French Polish I did for the model of the Balboa Park Carousel. http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d627b3127ccec798197c9a7f00000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d627b3127ccec798758c9ab900000040O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Jay Greer]

To see the actual model go to this site and click on "special projects"
The model is currently on display in Dubai with a price tag of thirty million.
The model took a team of ten of us fifteen years to build. The Egg is a ruby enameled spun platinum shell. Much of the metal is gold. It is encrusted with precious stones. The music box plays every tune that is played on the real carousel. Every thing is fully functunal.
http://jgrahldesign.com/
Jay

[David G]

Jay,

The woodworking is lovely, but it doesn't look like it was that part that took 15 years to build. Looks like it was the intricate metalwork that was the real time-eater. The wood finish is french polish throughout? Did they also shellac some of the other components?

What an extravagant, marvelous little toy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3YabDAZtXU

[aldebaran]

Hi, I´m a professional guitarbuilder and I French Polish all my guitars, meaning, that I always stock big bags of shellack flakes and alcohol.
Shellack is most probably one of the best sealers out there. If thinned a lot, it penetrates better than anything, and it can be used under and over more or less anything. It even seals silicone..... Besides its most probably the "healthiest" of all finishes.
BUT... Shellack works very poorly with water. It blushes very strongly and might even get sticky and never dry again.
It sure is a pretty finish for exotical woods:http://www.eliassonguitars.com/Graphics/mad3.jpg

[jonboy]

That's something I forgot...shellac is very sensitive to ambient RH and temperature...too cold and damp and it will bloom as it dries, and you have to strip and start over. Also if you can get ethyl alcohol 96% its better than denatured or methylated...there's a higher percentage of water in purple meths et alc is the same price here as denatured, more or less, but when I worked in England I had to have a Customs and Excise permit to buy it and fire cabinets and workshop inspections, or you buy it in the pharmacy and pay the price of taxed alcohol...as you can drink it, which is why its de- natured and dyed purple and has pyridine to make you puke if you do....
The blooming is more likely with de-natured alc.

[Jay Greer]

Wow, that is one beautiful guitar! The shape of the tail block taper is exquisite as is the entire piece. It is a real work of art! Kind of reminds me of the work of William Faden who built the New York Martins. Please contact me privately about the scope of your custom work. I am in need of a special instrument.
Jay

[Jay Greer]

Jay,

The woodworking is lovely, but it doesn't look like it was that part that took 15 years to build. Looks like it was the intricate metalwork that was the real time-eater. The wood finish is french polish throughout? Did they also shellac some of the other components?

What an extravagant, marvelous little toy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3YabDAZtXU
The only French Polish work was on the pieces you see which were made of special select curly maple. I enhanced the grain pattern using Potassium Dichromate as a mordant. But, there was a lot of tinkering done by all of us on the rest of the piece which, incidently just sold and now we have an order for another. Now that we have done the tooling, we should be able to knock out the next one much faster. It will be a Faberage Egg but the contents are to be a surprise.
Jay

[Bill Huson]

OK then Bill....just do it. Was it necessary to try and start an argument before doing it? Just do it, and then report back as to its longevity.
Good Luck, it aint gonna work. But since the hulls will be sealed, one will never know will they?

Do tell. Explain why this will not work. Citations required, of course.

[Jay Greer]

I will chime in here with my own humble opinion. That is that shellac does not do well in humid conditions. I suspect that the interior of the boat compartments you plan to coat with shellac will be subject to a bit of condensation. But then, there is always the person, like yourself, who is brave enough not to listen to too much good advise and end up making someone elses mistakes, proving us all wrong by forging ahead regardless of opinions based speculation of others. I, for one would be curious as to the outcome. If it fails, it can always be removed with a wash down of alchohol.
Jay

[aldebaran]

Even though I´m a big fan of shellack, I wouldnt use it in a boat. It simply doesnt work well with water.

Jay, my website is
www.eliassonguitars.com

(I only build Spanish type (nylon string) guitars)

[DDan]

I believe that shellac is the traditional finish used on the bottom of wood and canvas canoes. It is used because it imparts some abrasion resistance and slides over rocks, which would really mess up paint. If I remember correctly, it cracks, but is refreshed simply by painting on a new coat every year or so, building up a thick coat.

[jonboy]

I believe that shellac is the traditional finish used on the bottom of wood and canvas canoes. It is used because it imparts some abrasion resistance and slides over rocks, which would really mess up paint. If I remember correctly, it cracks, but is refreshed simply by painting on a new coat every year or so, building up a thick coat.


Well, if that's so I'd be totally amazed....read the posts above ... the consensus is lovely finish, shite around moisture...
with all due respect... if you are thinking trad preparations, it will have been an oil based linen dressing.... linseed or similar, some animal glue maybe, bit of gesso / plaster of paris, / whitelead whiting... but not shellac......

[Scot L T]

Yes, shellac was/is used by some builders as a traditional bottom finish for wood/canvas canoes. It is applied over the filled and cured canvas, below the water line. It is most often seen in areas where larger flatter bottomed canoes are common (ie. Maine) and the rivers are shallow with rocky bottoms. It is not as common in the Northern areas (ie. Canada) where the rivers are deeper, less rocky and the canoes tend to be deeper and more round bottomed.

This is done for a number of reasons: I'll just quickly note a few, there are more I'm sure.

1. It's easier to maintain than paint and only requires a refresher once a year for normal use or as necessary for harder use.

2. The new coat goes on with a chemical bond rather than the mechanical/physical bond of paint so actual work to apply the new coat is quicker and easier. Just a quick sand to get rid of crud and such, then brush on the new layer.

3. It is somewhat "slippery" so tends to slide over rocky bottoms easier than a painted bottom. Also because of it's elasitic nature scratches tend to fill in.

4. There are some that claim a shellac bottom will slide through the water easier...I cannot say. All of my canoes have painted bottoms with the exception of one, a 16' guide canoe and I cannot tell if there is any difference.

Shellac does have many other uses in canoe and boat building in general which, I think, makes it very useful. It's often used as a sealing agent between parts, a base/seal coat for a fine varnish job, glue for bungs, etc. Although it doesn't react all that well with water, I still think it has a place on the boatbuilders shelf.

As to the question of shellac on a keel...a keel on a canoe used in shallow water is counter productive (IMO) as it will be getting hung up often and can be responsible for dumping the whole boat and contents. Shellac on a canoe bottom that will be used in deep water serves no real purpose so I would suggest a bottom including keel, paint is in order. Keels on canoes were, as far as I know, a "white man's" addition and "to keel or not to keel is the question"...but that discussion is for another thread.

[walker833]

I glue my bungs with it, but as I don't have access to flakes, I buy a quart and allow the alcohol to evaporate until it thickens.

Bob
You can purchase flakes from Shellac Shack on the web at www.shellacshack.com (http://www.shellacshack.com).
Rob

[PeterSibley]

I will chime in here with my own humble opinion. That is that shellac does not do well in humid conditions. I suspect that the interior of the boat compartments you plan to coat with shellac will be subject to a bit of condensation. But then, there is always the person, like yourself, who is brave enough not to listen to too much good advise and end up making someone elses mistakes, proving us all wrong by forging ahead regardless of opinions based speculation of others. I, for one would be curious as to the outcome. If it fails, it can always be removed with a wash down of alchohol.
Jay
:D:D:D