A matter of style - SS or SB hardware for wherry?

[Thorne]

I want to put my rudder (and later possibly another lighter rudder) on my Cosine Wherry for taking SWIMBO out rowing. Also need to replace the bow eye -- the builder used a teensey SS eye bolt.

The oarlocks bases and locks are bronze. Some of the few visible fasteners are square drive SB (hey, I didn't build it).

Should I stick to SB for the bow eye and gudgeons? I'd do it but can't find any SB gudgeons that mount on the skeg -- and that's what I need to use to mount both my existing rudder and the light board I use for trailering.

Got lucky with hardware for the dory skiff and found a strap gudgeon that only needed a little drilling out to fit on the dory's skeg. But no joy finding another SB strap gudgeon one for the wherry -- I do have two standard 90-degree SB gudgeons off eBay, however.

The excellent folks at Duckworks have SS ones that would work really well.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/p-g/canoe/canoe-gudgeons.jpg

What do you folks think? The wherry won't have a lot of hardware other than what is already installed, as it needs to be kept lightweight, so the only stuff in question is the bow eye and gudgeons.

http://www.luckhardt.com/wt08-row10.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/cb-shore1.jpg

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Crikey that's a lovely-looking boat, Thorne. Congratulations on her.

As far as the bow-eye goes, I'd definitely replace it in bronze. It should be easily gettable from a range of sources near you.

If you were to use the Duckworks gudgeon I wouldn't worry all that much about its being stainless, as being below the waterline it won't be visible once you're afloat.

Aileen Louisa's rudder has three pintles. The top two matching gudgeons are flat plates that screw/bolt straight to the transom --

http://www.briggsmarine.com.au/images/products/Dee-Plate.gif

There's a vertical version of these too, for the "stem" of a wineglass transom. So if you wanted bronze, the first option would be to see if a vertical one would do the trick. (They're only an inch wide as cast, and you could actually grind a bit off each side to make it narrower still if you needed to.)

But AL's lowest gudgeon was simply a vertical bushed hole through the skeg, which was itself an extension of the keel.

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/al-trailer2.jpg

So, would extending your wherry's keel for this purpose be a possible second option?

And if that's not a possibility either, perhaps one of these expoxied horizontally into place in the keel instead might do the trick --

http://www.briggsmarine.com.au/images/products/Dee-Bolt.gif

Mike

[Thorne]

The skeg is pretty slim, not too sure about mounting one of those vertical gudgeons. Width of the skeg in back is 3/4", and it has a SS rub strip running along the bottom and up the back.

One suggestion I myself have made to others asking this question is to take a standard strap pintle that is wider by at least 1/2" than the actual pintles on the rudder, and perform a sex-change operation on the poor thing. Cut off the thingie, then drill a hole in the base to take the actual pintles.

Pintles on the rudder are 3/8" across the pintle, so that's fairly small which is an advantage.

Problem is that most strap pintles large enough for this "operation" are pretty expensive -- Hamilton has a SB pintle in 1.5" for $62, and a 1" for $22. The latter might be large enough at the base to take the actual rudder pintles but possibly not -- or it might break.

Another alternative, although not SB, is the Ronstan rudder gudgeon in anodized aluminum for $33-$42 from Jamestown -
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/hardware/56856.jpg

This site offers "rudder gudgeons" in various sizes, none in SB -
http://www.rigrite.com/Hardware/Rudder_Hardware/Pintles&Gudgeons.htm#Rudder%20Gudgeons

[Thorne]

Went ahead and ordered a 1" SB pintle from Hamilton, along with the bronze bow eye. Will post pics when done.

[Thorne]

Don't look at me, I'm just gonna move the yoke tiller one from my dory skiff around.

If the rudder will only be used under oar, it can probably be pretty small and I'd guess flush with the skeg. Let's see what the folks with some sort of clue have to say...

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Well, she's not a wherry Dale, but Aileen Louisa was designed as a pulling boat, and so has a wineglass transom too. (See Post #2.) She's 15' long with a 5' beam, and quite a heavy boat. She has a plumb stem and long straight keel with a steel centreboard, so the rudder has been built and hung to be quite strong accordingly.

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/al-rudder1.jpg

As you can see, it's fitted with three pintle/gudgeon combinations. The pintles are the standard pattern like this, riveted through the blade --

http://www.briggsmarine.com.au/images/products/Rudder-Gudgeons.gif

The top pintle is the same as the bottom two (except for the length of the pin itself,) but was fitted to the blade before the stock was strengthened by having the cheek pieces added. (This is standard practice for a rudder like this.)

I don't know the size of your wherry, but I expect she'd have a hull that was a good deal lighter than AL's, and it's quite possible you'd only need two sets of pintles/gudgeons. (Also, the bottom one shouldn't be as low as the keel because you don't normally want the pintle projecting below it; but the further apart you can keep the pair, if only two, the better.)

Many rudders are designed to project below the keel though, but although AL's was originally like that I shortened it because she spent much of her time in a mud berth, where a projecting rudder was just a nuisance. But if yours is indeed like that, then it won't hurt if the bottom pintle projects too.

Aileen Louisa's upper two gudgeons are as in Post #2. Construction of the lowest gudgeon is explained in Post #2 as well. You probably wouldn't want to try to retrofit a keel extension as a skeg (although you could,) but depending on the width of the sternpost you might be able to fit a vertical version of the screw-on gudgeon shown. (That is to say, a casting that has its two mounting holes above and below the gudgeon eye, rather than each side of it.) Failing that, you could use the bolt type shown at the end of Post #2 by drilling (at right angles to the transom) through the sternpost or else into the deadwood, sealing the hole with epoxy. (If through the stern-post you'd just run a washer and dome-nut on the other end, and if into the deadwood, epoxy the bolt into place.)

Failing that again, you could perhaps try Thorne's idea of using a standard pintle, cutting off the pin, then drilling vertically through the fitting where the pin was, to turn the whole thing into an outside-strap gudgeon which would fit around the deadwood just as the normal pintle fits around the rudder blade.

However many pintles you use, make sure to cut the pins so that they're at different lengths. Otherwise you'll have a fearful job trying to hang the rudder because you'll have to line the pintles up with all the gudgeons all at once. (But don't cut them shorter than you need to, just in case the rudder jumps around a bit with a freak wave or something -- you don't want one of them popping out. Although AL's bottom pintle is shorter than you'd normally want, this isn't a problem for her as she still has two others of reasonable length to keep the bottom one in alignment if necessary.)

Here's a last point. If you make the tiller long enough to fit right through the rudder stock and out the other side a bit, you can then drill vertically through the overhanging bit to take a bronze locking-pin. This means the tiller isn't relying just on a friction fit in the rudder stock, but is locked to it. (The locking pin for AL's tiller is permanently tied to the rudder stock, as you can see in the photo.) The after end of the stock has a short length of brass half-round across it above and below the tiller socket, against which the pin bears in a reasonably tight fit.

Finally, if you're rowing by yourself you can either do so with the rudder removed and lying on the bottom-boards, or you can lash the tiller to keep the rudder amidships.

I hope all this helps.

Mike

[silvergull]

Thorne:

Go to: http://www.duck-trap.com/rudderfittings.html

Cheers, Jim

[Thorne]

Thanks, everyone!

Since I've already ordered the part, I'll try the cheap route of modifying the pintle, and if that doesn't work I'll order one from Duck Trap.

http://www.duck-trap.com/rfittings-o.jpg

[Thorne]

Well, there is not enough metal on the Hamilton pintle to do a 'sex-change' operation and turn it into a gudgeon, so I called Duck Trap and ordered an undrilled strap gudgeon as in the top of the photo above.

We shall see if it has enough metal to take the tapered hole needed for the standard 1/2" pintle on my rudder....

[RodB]

I'm in the process of repairing a Cosine Wherry that needs a bow eye... like yours, all the hardware is bronze... so I opted to install a bronze bow eye, I also had to get some extra square drive #12 SB wood screws from jamestown.... and a box of #8 SB wood screws.

Heres the link where I found and ordered a very nice bow eye with a 4" bolt... Came in already... looks great. Matches the boat well.

http://www.reddenmarine.com/marine-supplies.cfm/deck-hardware-hawsee-pipes/buck-algonquin-00be400/bow-eye-round-eye-plain-3-8-x-4.html

http://www.reddenmarine.com/marine-supplies.cfm/deck-hardware-hawsee-pipes/buck-algonquin-00be400/bow-eye-round-eye-plain-3-8-x-4.html

[Thorne]

Rod -

That's the bow eye I ordered from Hamilton, just haven't installed it yet.

[rbgarr]

Dyer Boats makes a set of pintles and gudgeons that slide vertically on a rod mounted to the transom. Very easy to line up and set the rudder in place: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Set-of-Bronze-Pintels-and-Gudgeon-Dyer-Dow_W0QQitemZ260461164511QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBoat_P arts_Accessories_Gear?hash=item3ca4b1f7df&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

[Thorne]

My problem is that I want to use this rudder on both boats, and it already has standard bronze pintles

http://www.luckhardt.com/kickup-full1.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

Any small machine shop ought to be able to fabricate SB gudgeons like you need in a jiffy, no? All it would take would be a couple of blocks of SB with a step milled on each side, using a round headed mill to create the inside "fillet," drill the hole for the pintle and mounting bolts, and round off the rest. Polish her up and you're good to go.

Alternately, on a larger application, it really isn't all that difficult to make a wooden pattern and take it to your local foundry and have it cast. For simple castings, like most all basic hardware on boats, I doubt you'd pay more than $20 a pound for the job. These days, with epoxy available for filleting and assembly, patternmaking is much easier than it was in the good old days of all wood patterns.

... But you've solved the problem now, right?

After years of relying on "off the shelf" hardware, and then a lot of "recycled" salvage bronze hardware, it's becoming somewhat difficult to find properly sized fittings. Out of necessity, we're finding we have to now more often consider fabricating our own hardware for traditional boat building... just like they did in the old days. Learning a bit of metal working can set you free of the consternation about who makes what ready made and where. As I discovered after decades of considering it something of a "black art," metal work, especially with basic metals like copper and bronze, isn't rocket science. Woodworking is a lot more demanding, actually. Do not be afraid! Go for it!

[Thorne]

Bob -

The "mill it yourself" option has been suggested before, but in my limited experience in pricing marine-grade SB stock I've found the stuff to be brutally expensive.

If you have a source here I'll check with them, but the last time I priced SB and Naval Brass for the cheekplates on a small kickup rudder, the raw materials were over $200.

BTW I work at NASA Ames in Mountain View, and visited their machine shop for the first time yesterday. Talk about some big old iron! Very old-school as the base has been active since the 20's, floor made from blocks of DF, a trip back to the past for sure.

Getting one cast by an experienced marine foundry is probably a better bet, but I suspect it would cost far more than $20. I may yet find out, if the Duck Trap hardware doesn't work out. Talked to the owner when I ordered it, and he said it was a lot of work to get the casting process correct, proper SB alloy, etc.

[Bob Cleek]

I know one guy that had a lot of hardware, including some pretty fancy prop struts, cast by a foundry over in Richmond or Berkeley. It wasn't cheap, but it was very nice work. It's hard to compare prices because price for foundry work is a combination of the materials and the time, which is a function of how complex the pattern is. For simple stuff, some guys are now casting their own. A lot of the expense in custom casting isn't pouring the bronze, but rather the time it takes to hand finish a polished piece. If you are willing to do your own clean up on the rough casting, there's a big savings in that, too.

The last time I checked, C873, or "silicon" or "Everdur" bronze, was about the easiest of all the bronzes to cast, which is why it is favored by amateur foundrymen. It pours nicely, is not as prone to voids and will produce pretty smooth castings, which is why it's used by sculptors a lot. I'd be somewhat skeptical of a foundryman who told you "silicon bronze" was "hard to get the casting process correct... proper alloy, etc." You BUY an ignot of the "proper alloy," you melt it, and you pour it into the sand mold. There's no need to pay anybody to mix a special alloy for you.

Nasa Ames? Oh, yea. They probably have the best of the best machine shop around, now that they've closed Mare Island and Hunter's Point. I used to have a "connection" at Mare Island. A lot of boats were fitted out through Mare Island's "back door!" It was a great source for bottom paint, too. Their black submarine paint would kill any marine organism within fifty yards! LOL

Back in the seventies when I was doing the yacht brokerage thing part time, we had a welded steel Atkin "Maid of Kent" schooner come through the brokerage. It had been built by a guy who worked at Nasa Ames. Most all of her hardware, including her portlights, had been made at Nasa Ames out of polished titanium! I'll bet there aren't many boats around with polished titanium cleats and portlights! Maybe one of the machinists at Nasa Ames could to turn out titanium gudgeons on his lunch hour for a fifth of Jack!

[Thorne]

Called Duck Trap and ordered one of the strap gudgeons undrilled -- and it looks like it has enough metal to drill a tapered hole for a 1/2" pintle. Here are two photos of it roughly in place on the skeg of the wherry -- that is graphite-mix epoxy with a brass rub strip.

Now, I wonder if Banjoman has a drill press??? :D

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3858870837_e2c9d30d47_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3858870789_dda2e3c337_o.jpg

[Thorne]

No action taken yet other than to order the SB bolts from Hamilton. Should be an easy winter project now that I have all the hardware.

[Thorne]

Had a free day today, so I got both the flat and strap gudgeons on the wherry. Drilling the strap gudgeon was challenging, particularly getting the tapered hole right for the pintle. Thank goodness for tapered dremel grinding bits!
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs018.snc3/12531_193671208645_519763645_3914210_7119376_n.jpg

Got lazy and used PL Premium to fill the bolt holes and seal around the edges of the gudgeons, but I suspect that for a dry-sailed boat it will be fine.

Now I can use both the rudder and the light-bar that has pintles on it -- much easier than using the rolling trolley mount to tie the light-bar onto.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs038.snc3/12531_193675493645_519763645_3914442_6774530_n.jpg

[David G]

Twin,

Looks sweet. But what's wrong with galvanized, you wine on crackers, brie-sipping effete city boy??? :p

Oh, nevermind. I figured it out. You're just trying to upgrade the aesthetic of your boat so that it more closely approaches the excellence of your sailing skills! Got it! :cool:

[Chip-skiff]

I was going to post a line to Duck Trap's bronze rudder castings, but scrolled down and saw that you found it.

Good-O!

I bought a set, neither drilled nor polished, for my skiff rudder.

[banjoman]

I would have answered sooner if I saw this thread.

The answer to your question is, "Yes."
But it looks like I am a little late.