Thursday, September 24, 2009

[Scot]

Starter. Please note, we are shifting to the last Tuesday of the month.

UPDATE: Make that the last THURSDAY of the month!

[AstoriaDave]

This is a continuation of a discussion David G initiated last week (although I am writing this on Tuesday August 25). To wit, could there be more emphasis on west coast shops, boats, etc.

Seems to me over the past few years the distribution of emphasis in WB has shifted more towards the NW US and SE BC (Canada), which I suspect better matches what is happening, although we left coasters must have a very inaccurate and biased view of what happens on the right coast (and bottom coast) of North America.

FWIW, I've always found Tom and Matt very receptive to ideas and people whose base is the Pacific NW; and, their presence at the Port Townsend WBF (in human and monetary terms) is tangible evidence of the interest the WB editorship has in us and our region.

In the interest of full disclosure, Tom and I go way back to his newspapering days in Astoria ... and I promise never to bring two left-halves of your kayak paddle again, Tom!

[Mrleft8]

Please note, we are shifting to the last Tuesday of the month.

Good idea, I was going to suggest this. My other suggestion is to move it to Thursday.

[Scot]

Why Thursday?

[Hwyl]

Jack Holt is cooler than herreshoff

[Paul Pless]

Jack Holt is cooler than herreshoffI guess its safe to assume that Gareth is not a card carrying member of the Cult of Herreshoff.

[Paul Pless]

Here's a thought for you guys. As you continue to address the supply of lumber from specialty or small scale mills that you began to discuss last week; why not also look into the suitability of recycled and reclaimed lumber. For example, near my former home in Alabama a neighbor buys 100+ year old industrial buildings (mostly cotton gins and textile mills) and tears them down for the long leaf pine. Sadly, he resaws and mills most of it for hardwood floors in McMansions.:( Similarly I know others that refloat long sunk Cypress. Is lumber from sources like this suitable for boatbuilding and if so, where and how is it best utilized?

[Hwyl]

I guess its safe to assume that Gareth is not a card carrying member of the Cult of Herreshoff.

In Duncans thread, it was noted that there had already been three articles on Jack Holt, on the same thread I pointed out that there had been many scores of articles on the Herreshoffs.

Jack did design the Cadet and invented luff grooves.

I'm reading a book about Herreshoff right now "Temple to the Wind" reading it is about as easy as sailing to windward in a catboat

[Mrleft8]

Why Thursday?

Because thursday is friday in upside-down land, and fridays at midnight are not as onerous as midnight on wednesdays. (for those with 9-5 jobs.) And..... because tuesdays at noon I'm at my elderly father's house feeding him lunch, and meeting with the woman who does his bills. (so, yes it's partly selfish... ;))

[wooden 'ed]

@AstoriaDave: What determines where the focus falls? Are you asking should the magazine (that's what we're talking about, right?) hire more journalists / freelancers in that region?

What's the business structure that determines the 'geography of coverage'?

[AstoriaDave]

@AstoriaDave: What determines where the focus falls? Are you asking should the magazine (that's what we're talking about, right?) hire more journalists / freelancers in that region? What's the business structure that determines the 'geography of coverage'?No, I don't think I have any special knowledge which would make me a better decision-maker on how to run WB! :) I see plenty of focus on the West Coast as it is now, and I'd imagine it is a chicken and egg situation: with a heavy readership on the right coast, it makes sense to favor action in East Coast yards, and to spice things up with good projects from anywhere. I'm happy to see an article on a West Coast project, but mainly I'm interested in coverage emphasizing quality and variety, whatever the geography.

For example, my own humble town has a long handful of backyard wooden boat builders, but not the critical mass to warrant an article. I think Tom Jackson's Nomans Land project, begun here and completed a decade later in Maine might be the most original one, and we can not really claim it as ours: most of the gestation was right coast.

[Mrleft8]

Glad to see that my forward thinking, altruistic suggestion was recieved with enthusiasm...;)

[Captain Blight]

How about an article about the modern quest for speed under sail? I know the Gougeon Brothers did a whole bunch of Tornadoes in tortured ply, and back when waterline lenght was still held to be parabmount, built a big--proa, maybe?-- called IIRC Longshot out of wood. I don't know if Jacob's Ladder was wood or frozen snot, but given the time frame, could have gone either way. Dudly Dix and his Black Cat series are by all accounts real screamers, and definitely designed for sheet ply.

Heck. Wood's still a very viable option in the fastest "vessels" under sail, the kiteboards!

[Mrleft8]

Is it just my issue, or is the cover of WB210 somewhat thinner and less glossy than previous issues?

[jack grebe]

I see plenty of focus on the West Coast as it is now, and I'd imagine it is a chicken and egg situation: with a heavy readership on the right coast, it makes sense to favor action in East Coast yards, and to spice things up with good projects from anywhere. I'm happy to see an article on a West Coast project, but mainly I'm interested in coverage emphasizing quality and variety, whatever the geography.

Perhaps it is time for a left coast addition on WOODENBOAT?

[jimkeen]

OK, Am I the only one truly confused here?. The group will meet on the last Thursday of the month, I get that. The problem is, what is to be discussed? The magazine? The industry? Design philosophy? Home building?The state of the economy? I guess all are fair game, I am not clear on the purpose of the group. If it is some kind of focus group format, then the leaders should put out some fodder for comment. Might make it a little more orderly.

[Carl Cramer]

We'll be here to answer any questions you feel like positing to us. For some, this is a place to suggest future articles. Others, to comment and get our reactions.

Not a focus group, just being here for you.

Please feel free to post your questions in advance. Thanks, Carl




OK, Am I the only one truly confused here?. The group will meet on the last Thursday of the month, I get that. The problem is, what is to be discussed? The magazine? The industry? Design philosophy? Home building?The state of the economy? I guess all are fair game, I am not clear on the purpose of the group. If it is some kind of focus group format, then the leaders should put out some fodder for comment. Might make it a little more orderly.

[J. Dillon]

We'll be here to answer any questions you feel like positing to us. For some, this is a place to suggest future articles. Others, to comment and get our reactions.


Carl, Does this mean my question asked twice has a possibility of being answered ????;) Or am I truly invisible ?:rolleyes:

JD

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, JD. Hopefully you'll get a response in our next session........

Carl, Does this mean my question asked twice has a possibility of being answered ????;) Or am I truly invisible ?:rolleyes:

JD

[Duncan Gibbs]

Hey Carl... I see a green light buddy!!

I'll do the press the traffic light button eleventy million times cause I didn't press it correctly the first time thang (Thanks for the tip JD! :D)...


....The Mirror Dinghy!

Nearly 80 thousand built and most of them in timber. Perhaps THE most successful wooden boat of all time. Brilliant designer with contributions all over the shop, as noted by Gareth. Gotta be worth a good slab of WBM page... 10 maybe... 20 over two issues!

One of the great voyages of recent history taken in a Mirror: 3000 miles from Shropshire to the Black Sea.

Come on Carl! Throw me a bone! :D

[Longbow]

I'd really like to see a story or a series on easy to build, trailerable cabin sailboats. Something similar to the Catalina 18 or 22 but in wood. There's been a lot of coverage of smaller open boats and camp cruisers, but I haven't seen much on this type.

[rbgarr]

I'd really like to see a story or a series on easy to build, trailerable cabin sailboats. Something similar to the Catalina 18 or 22 but in wood. There's been a lot of coverage of smaller open boats and camp cruisers, but I haven't seen much on this type.


There was a magazine called Small Boats that pretty much focussed on trailerable small boats and reviewed many examples of the type you mention, both in wood and in fg. Old issues of them can be found online.

[john l]

boat builders and designers personal boats would make a great series for the magazine. i see it as featuring one or two an issue with discussions on their
choice and rational for specific vessel. as an example - i'm intrigued/enlightened with doug hylan's hurt island boat. nice vessel - lots of similarity to several vessels - imagine elements of a newhaven sharpie a cheaspeake dinghy and a coquina. why a guy who can restore an aieda and build anything builds a nice small boat with no varnish for himself can be very informative for a woodenboat hobbiest. tis was covered nicely in the annual
small boats issue. but why did nat benjamin build his boat? or ???

[Paul Pless]

John l, great post!

[john l]

thanks paul ..what a plum job for a writer...and a reader too!

[David McCollum]

I have a question. How much work is required to fair and finish a plywood hull that has been covered with glass and resin, compared with the same size carvel planked hull, or strip built, or cold molded? I was reading a story written by a man who built a Sam Devlin designed 25' boat, made of 'glass covered plywood, and it required 600 hours of sanding, out of a total of 2200 hours to build the boat. This surprised me, and made me wonder how this step compares to the other methods of construction. Personally I think sanding epoxy is a pretty miserable task compared with sanding and shaping wood.

[Longbow]

Would it be possible to get digital downloads of Boat design Quarterly?

[Russ Manheimer]

How about a page of wooden boat fiction/ non-fiction each issue. Perhaps focusing on small boats. Some of the best from O'Brian, Worth, Forester, White, Atkin, Childers et al. We all have our favorites; suggestions?

Perhaps a look back page. (And not that far.) I'd like to hear the story of just how long Jon used that phone by the tree. Anyone care to put up a plaque?

Finally I'd like to see a quarter page (or so) "Heard on the Forum" section, similar to the one in Classic Boat.

And I'd like to thank Carl and all for giving us voice in how our favorite passion is presented.

Carry on,

Russ

[Larks]

I'd like to hear the story of just how long Jon used that phone by the tree. Anyone care to put up a plaque?



Russ, is that - "How did Long Jon use the phone by the tree?"
or - "How long did Jon use the phone by the tree?" :confused:

[Lew Barrett]

I won't have time while I'm working tomorrow to join in...damn!

First off, I suspect the answer to a lot of my "suggestions" is related to waiting for the right article to be written on each topic, because it seems to me that WB has not been shy in publishing whatever of interest comes along that is germane to our interests.


But, in a huge heap anyway, then.....

I like restoration techniques (articles). I can't get enough coverage on that kind of stuff. For instance, I enjoyed the last bits on fastener removal, but it's not limited to that for me. That's just the latest example of the kind of stuff you get here that you don't get elsewhere. It was riveting that I knew one of the authors! Everything........how to find and repair leaks in coach tops....how to repair old fastener holes, or sister frames......it's all grist for my mill.

How about going beyond dealing with wooden structure and getting into stuff like proper wiring and electrical practices for our boats that can be used on new builds or old, including where to source things like traditional looking gauges and instruments and how to integrate modern navigation and radar in clever ways? Just amongst one (or two) thoughts....

Restoration is as big and as widely practiced around here (if not more so) than new builds. I think there are generally more new builds back east (not of amateur built small boats as I don't know how to measure that) but a very active restoration scene of medium to large boats out here. And a lot of power boats at that. Power boat coverage is always good :)

I realize WB is a very different magazine (congratulations!) and I'm not interested (and who is?) in glossy overviews and shallow advertorials or lists of "what's new" disguised as articles. Thankfully that's not ever what you give us (hooray). But focused coverage of, for example, gps equipment suitable for the small boat/camper helps us keep our boats compatible with modern developments. Or other ideas on how to integrate (for instance) radar onto boats with limited electrical resources (or that were not intended for it's use) reflects a certain reality in respect to how the boats are being used today. How do you mount a radar antenna on a wooden boat without it looking out of place? I think more broadly in respect to items like this...I just used radar as an example. There's domestic heat, managing water and tankage, how to rebuild old pumps, just a million things one could focus on one at a time that go beyond examining glue, which is more than OK of course as well.
Small boat people tend to think in terms of certain systems; hull, oars, rig. Cruiser needs frequently expand beyond that.


I love the WB tool tests. Toy tests? One of my favorite escapist reading sections!

I know it's awkward for a magazine that must rely on advertisers as well as subscribers, but I'd love to see materials tests as well beyond the very useful but general articles on shellac and linseed oil, for example. What is the best way to use the various different clear coatings, for example...which is good for what job?

And as WoodenBoat's voice itself has so clearly spoken of in the past, I think we should always have an abiding interest in celebrating the diverse working culture that the avocation fosters. This is why I have been interviewing and (sort of informally) cataloging the working trades one by one here in Seattle. Don't you just love the 'tudes that come with being a wooden boat professional? Not everyone displays the same attitude (or attitudes) but without doubt, there are attitudes. Wooden boat people (on this coast, which is the only one I know) have such a great "can-do" approach to things. It's inspiring to me, so ultimately I find the individual profiles of people and their accomplishments, (and techniques) to be probably the most beneficial long term records we can foster.

I wish I could be here tomorrow to join in the chat for real.

[RFNK]

Great post Lew! My vote for all of the above!! Rick

[Mrleft8]

Wouldn't you just know that here it is thursday the 24th of september, and right there on the calendar, in the little square box with the 24 in it, is a note that says... "Phlebotomy 11:30 Middletown"..... :mad: :rolleyes:

[Thorne]

How about a more in-depth focus on small boating activities around the world?

The wooden boat shows get covered in WB mag, but for messabouts we have to rely on Chuck's excellent online Duckworks magazine. And TSCA events only get covered on their chapter's newsletters - if then.

The recent Coots Timothy Lake event is a perfect example. I think that all of the boats were home-built / non-production models, and included a good mix of power, sail, and oar.

Promoting these small boats events may be one way to stay on top of the most active part of current wooden boat business - small boat building by pros and sales of plans to home builders. I also suspect that this may be where most of the *building-related* money is, not including maintenance and yard work on larger wooden boats.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, all. We'll be joining you in 20+ scant minutes.

I have a phone conference at the same time, so my typing might be affected somewhat.

I'm looking forward to it. Carl

[Carl Cramer]

Welcome, all. I'll address the few people who commented on our cover stock.

The cover has been produced with the same matte finish and same quality paper for many, many years.

Because a few people asked about it, we had our printers check, and they verified this was the case with the Sep/Oct issue. I think it looked stunning. Did you like it?

Matt is traveling out of town but will hopefully being joining us today.

Thanks, Carl

[KE Wales]

Hello All,
Karen

[Carl Cramer]

Remember to "Refresh" to keep current on this thread.

[Tom Jackson]

Sorry I'm a bit late, but I'm in.
Tom

[Carl Cramer]

Longbow -- I don't know the answer to this. I'll ask Scot and Mike.


Would it be possible to get digital downloads of Boat design Quarterly?

[Tom Jackson]

I'd be shocked if Mike O'Brien went to ANYTHING digital!

[rbgarr]

Hello again,

I'll be interested to read responses the WB folks have to the comments posted since the last session.

[Carl Cramer]

Are there any questions for us today?

[KE Wales]

I posed the BDQ question to Mike. Haven't heard back yet,

Karen

[Carl Cramer]

Which comments, RB?


Hello again,

I'll be interested to read responses the WB folks have to the comments posted since the last session.

[Canoez]

Are there any questions for us today?

Sure. I managed to pick up a bunch of back issues of the magazine last weekend. As I was reading them I noticed that some of the technical articles tended to be more thoroughly illustrated (with nice hand-sketches) than they are today. This was one of the features that originally attracted me to the magazine. Is it my imagination or are there fewer illustrations in the various "technical" articles today and are the illustrations usually provided by the author (author's illustrator) or by magazine staff?

[Tom Jackson]

Well, Lew piled quite a lot on there.

On restoration: we had a seven-part series by Ed McClave on sailboat restoration, much of which can apply to any kind of boat. We're always looking for good material on these subjects, best if it has wide application.

On electronics, GPS, and such: in general, I think it's fair to say that WB has been focussed on things that are particular to wooden boats. On electronics, for example, we have addressed bonding (Giffy Full's article), which is of particular
concern to wooden boats. General wiring systems, etc., we've left pretty much alone. Sometimes, we've done product reviews along these lines. (For example, I wrote about the Spot tracker, which is of particular interest to small boaters, though I've heard of ocean-going yachts using them as well.)

Profiles of boatbuilders: Rather than profiles, I'd much rather have builders write on techniques for us. To me, profiles are rarely satisfying on details, instead putting a person on a pedestal. If a guy has a technique that works, I'd much rather he told us about it.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, Canoez. I don't think we've changed at all. But it's a good question. Tom, Karen -- Any comments?


Sure. I managed to pick up a bunch of back issues of the magazine last weekend. As I was reading them I noticed that some of the technical articles tended to be more thoroughly illustrated (with nice hand-sketches) than they are today. This was one of the features that originally attracted me to the magazine. Is it my imagination or are there fewer illustrations in the various "technical" articles today and are the illustrations usually provided by the author (author's illustrator) or by magazine staff?

[MPM]

Hi--
Greetings from Rockland. Sorry I'm late; they sure make it hard to connect to the internet here---
Matt

[Carl Cramer]

Glad you could make it, Matt.

[Thorne]

I'll repeat my post from an hour ago about covering small boating messabouts and events other than WB shows -

How about a more in-depth focus on small boating activities around the world?

The wooden boat shows get covered in WB mag, but for messabouts we have to rely on Chuck's excellent online Duckworks magazine. And TSCA events only get covered on their chapter's newsletters - if then.

The recent Coots Timothy Lake event is a perfect example. I think that all of the boats were home-built / non-production models, and included a good mix of power, sail, and oar.

Promoting these small boats events may be one way to stay on top of the most active part of current wooden boat business - small boat building by pros and sales of plans to home builders. I also suspect that this may be where most of the *building-related* money is, not including maintenance and yard work on larger wooden boats.

[Tom Jackson]

Canoez—
In some ways technical drawings like lines plans are harder to deal with these days. Not many years ago, you could get a PMT, essentially a photograph, of lines plan with excellent clarity and accuracy, sometimes looking better than the original, for about $10. That technology is gone. Scanners pose a lot of problems, although it's getting better, but there are hassles, and it can be expensive.

For detail drawings, I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that we've been looking for a certain minimum quality in the drawing. We use people like Sam Manning and Robert LaPoint quite a bit for these.

[MPM]

To Canoez's question. Those hand-drawn sketches to which you refer are likely by Sam Manning, and Sam is still drawing for us. There's been no program here of reducing the thoroughness of our technical illustration. Perhaps you picked up a set of magazines from a period when we were focused on a particularly technical subject--such as the restoration series to which Tom refers.

So the short answer is no; that hasn't happened. But if you'd like to cite specifics, we're open to introspection.
--Matt

[Carl Cramer]

I guess that's it for today. Thanks, all, for being here. See you next month.

[rbgarr]

A question arose on a separate forum thread regarding the WB BoatsForSale online classifieds fees. How do they compare to other fee schedules?

[MPM]

Thanks for yours, Thorne. I think you'll find that we rarely cover boat shows. rather, we use them as places to research article topics, which we then go after in greater depth than the frenetic clip opf a show can afford.


The odd messabout-as-photoessay is a good idea. But, with six issues per year, we simply don't have the space to do this sort of thing comprehensively. Also, there's seldom a good narrative angle in a messabout. But, in the right hands....

[Tom Jackson]

Thorne—
Our "coverage" of events is pretty rare, and frankly that's the way I think it should be. Most often, it seems to me, people who want this kind of coverage were at the event —*and they already know all about it. Coverage often lacks sufficient detail about the boats to be satisfying to our readers. Our calendar of events has always been as inclusive as we could make it, and as far as providing public relations for events — which I think is what this is really about —*we've tried to do as much as we can.

When I go to an event, like a festival or show, I tend to look around the edges. There are often good stories to be had, good boats to look at for our Small Boat edition, that sort of thing. IN the Nov/Dec Currents, for example, I've got stuff coming about the new maritime center in Port Townsend, plus several other Northwest centers. It's not "covering" the event, which for me is just dull. I think, though, that it's a better approach.

[KE Wales]

Canoez,

The Apprentice's Workbench and Getting Started are nearly always illustrated. In addition to bringing in some new talent we continue to bring the remarkable work of Sam Manning to our pages.

?

Karen

[Tom Jackson]

Seeing nothing futher, I guess I'll head out for lunch.
Take care, everyone.

[Canoez]

In particular, I was looking at a recent Harry Bryan article on beveling and chamfering. While straightforward, the two illustrations on the second page seemed to lack the "punch" to carry the point clearly. Usually I find the "Intro To" articles very clearly illustreted with photographs or sketches.

However, one of the articles by Bud Macintosh that I was looking at in an older issue had a very clear, concise step-by-step sequence of hand illustration that was as important as the text in carrying off the author's intent. this sometimes seems to be lacking in the "apprentice's workbench" today, IMHO.

Perhaps the difference is in how the author was able to explain the details to the illustrator?

[Lew Barrett]

I have to say that this format is far superior as a conversation than as a post and response board, and I sure wish I could have been there today.

I find myself in agreement with (and instructed by) Tom's comments. Thanks for taking the time to respond and for demonstrating the sort of thought that goes into your editorial decisions. It's why WB is the best magazine in the field, and one of the best magazines in any field, and helps me to understand how you make your own style.

[Bob Triggs]

It was great to see the WBM people at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival this year, ( just in time for my anual renewal!), and Im glad to hear you are writing up the new Northwest Maritime Center too!!!