Bosch Random Orbital failure. Designed in?

[Noah]

I have a new-ish Bosch random orbital sander which hasn't seen all that much use. Well the bearing in the "random Orbit" part went. (sanding a 25ft boat will do that) Anyway I took the thing apart and pulled out the offending bearing. I got a new one from the local tool repair place, but I noticed that there was a big difference between the two. On the original Bosch bearing, it wasn't sealed on the back side. This allowed dirt, dust, and crap to get in there and screw up the works.
On the new bearing it is sealed on both sides. This makes much more sense being that it is a sander and designed to make dust. Anyway I feel like this was a designed in flaw of the sander. Maybe a way to get people to buy new ones more regularly...?

Has anyone else had trouble with this?

Noah

[John B]

No, but Black and Decker did something similar to me in about 1983 and have lost my business and anyone else I could convince since.

[rbgarr]

Ditto, John. I had the same experience with mine.

[Noah]

Thats pretty funny. The tool repair guy said that most of the Black & Decker parts were the same as Bosch. Infact the two sanders use the same bearing.

I have a couple of bosch power tools, but I don't think that I will buy from them again. I lost half a day to rebuilding my sander, and that means no more business from me!

Harumph!

Noah

[Jerry Sousa]

Most mass produced power tools come out of China these days, Black & Decker too. In fact Makita, Hitachi, Ryobi and even Metabo have factories there. Bosch I believe, are made in Malaysia. The B&D's have just come onto the market here (in Hong Kong) a couple of months back. They were selling the factory "overuns" unpackaged out of cardboard boxs. By the way, I have even seen FAKE Bosch SDS drills, HitachiC7 saws and Kress jigsaws for sale on the streets of Kowloon, and this phenomenon was confirmed to me by a reputable tool dealer.
I generally buy used tools(20-30 years old) that are definitley not made in the US of China. Though I recently bought six 9.6V cordless Chinese drills from my supermarket for U.S$22 each. These are keyless chuck types with Variable speed and Reverse. Downside is a 3-5 hr recharge time. So far so good. Caveat emptor!

[jeff pierce]

A little off the subject, but I bought a B&D sabre saw ($38?) to cut frame members from 1x mahogany. I promised myself it was the last time I would buy cheapo B&D power tools. It lasted exactly 3 hours before the motor burned out. Luckily, the folks at the orange store saw it my way when I said it must have been defective to start with. They asked if I wanted another one. I said heck no and I bought the $100 deWalt instead, which has served me well for the last year.

[dasboat]

I have used my bosch barrel grip jig saw constantly over 4 yrs.now.No problems.
I wonder if I could Make the same claim if I bought it within the last year.
Das

[Noah]

The tool that I have been most impressed with is my Ryobi reconditioned 18 volt drill. That baby has gone to hell and back with out any fusses!

BTW the folks at the Orange store will take anything back. It doesn't come out of their pocket. If you buy something and return it, they throw it out and subtract it from the original sellers invoice. Basically B & D paid for your returned Saber Saw, not Home..I mean Orange store. This deal is written into most box store contracts. WallMart was the first to implement it in their contract. The only reason that companies deal with it is that the orders are so large they make do.
So the deal that you are getting doesn't come out of the box store's pocket, but the manufacturer.

That said I do return stuff to that type of store when I don't need/want it. I would also really like to get into one of their dumpsters. I think that I could score some serious tools out of one of them...

Noah

[Mike Field]

Well, I stopped buying Black & Decker back in the early 70s, when I found out that their normal home-handyman-type drill had a design life of something like 7 hours.

My only Bosch tool has been a hand planer that I've had for a couple of years, and it has been fine.

[John B]

I've got Bosch tools that I have hammered for the last 10 years.On that basis I have to say that they have been quality machines. Things change within companies... policy, takeovers, deals for different pieces of the market.When I was dropping a jigsaw off for repair last week I asked my usual question.... "which brand comes here least". Metabo was the answer.
Currently I would probably buy Metabo for a top quality tool. I gather Bosch have lowered their standards for the bigger piece of the pie.
My local Power tool centre ( where they address me by name)( is that good or bad?) suggested a Black and Decker something to me once and they got the lecture. They did however clarify one thing for me though. That was that B+D bought Dewalt specifically to buy back some credibility and tradesman market after all those disastrous machines they sold poor unsuspecting individuals like myself in 1980frozen stiff.
Ha,... It wasn't just me then, I thought.

Dewalt look they are doing a good job of meeting that cost/benefit average compromise.(We never had the brand here until perhaps 5 years ago or so.) I like their modular concept/approach for cordless.

[lumberdude]

Didn't see any posts about porter-cable. Any thoughts on those tools?

Lumberdude

[CaseyJones]

I upgraded from a 4" B&D random orbit sander(working great and gave it to SWMBO for furniture refinishing) to a Porter-Cable 5 1/2". After sanding out tons of thickened epoxy fairing, the PC is still going strong, though the dust collection bag fell off permanantly long ago. I have found the white velcro backed sheets to be the best cutting paper for it.

[ken mcclure]

Any power tool that I have that I depend on is Porter-Cable. The only trouble I've had with them is on the 5" random orbit sander, the little dust collection cups would shoot off showering everthing with wood flour. I talked to the Porter-Cable rep and he simply handed me replacements. No problems since. It is thought that since I was sanding some wood from which paint had been stripped that some of the solvent from the paint stripper was still there and ate up the seals.

[Bruce Hooke]

I have a Bosch random orbit sander, a Bosch router, a Bosch angle grinder, and a Bosch jigsaw. All have served me well for 7-10 years now...

[G. Schollmeier]

I have a Bosch RS 112 radom orbital sander. It must be about 10 years old. I have abused it until it was to hot to hold on to. It stil works fine. I replaced the pad about a year ago. I hate the switch. I think it's turned off and it starts up again when I set it down.
Gary

[Dave Fleming]

In times gone by Black and Decker were 'aces' as far as portable electric power tools.
Every yard had B&D grinders, those big 15 lb. monsters and B&D 1/2" drills with the long pipe handles. I personally have a 1/4" pistol grip B&D drill that is about 38 years old.
It has never given me a problem. But sometime in the recent past B&D took a nose dive with their Professional/Commercial line and now haven't seen a B&D in a yard in years.
I favour Milwaukee for some things, drills and screw shoooters mostly, Porter Cable for sanders. What I miss seeing are the Skil model 100 and Porter Cable 600 series hand held power planers. Routers I have a 28 year old B&D one HP, a 25 year old Porter Cable laminate trimmer set up permanently as a 'bullnoser', 2 Milwaukee 1.5 HP of the same time with those fine Ericcson Collets, and a newer Porter Cable 3 HP with less than 1 hour on it. I like that little 4.5 inch worm drive PC saw too. Jig saw is from about 1963 and is a Swiss barrel handle type did lots 'o work when new cutting nibs on the Teak deck of the Northhead. So I guess it is fair to say that I, in recent times favour PC-Milwaukee tools.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fleming (edited 08-17-2001).]

[Jamie Hascall]

It is interesting to see companies work to rehabilitate themselves after trashing their names with bad products. I remember getting so frustrated with a Rockwell (remember them)circular saw from the late 70's that I just dumpstered it. A little later all Rockwell brand hand and stationary tools were gone with Porter-Cable replacing the hand tools and Delta replacing the stationary ones. Thankfully they did justice to those fine old names with some fairly decent tools.

My experience with Bosch has been limited to their routers which I've liked better than any other and have watched stand up to years of commercial usage.

Jamie

[wcralle1]

Ok, I give up. Ill ask the question.
What does SWMBO stand for?

[Dave Fleming]

Jaime, Rockwell just bought PC and also Delta at that time and put their names on the tools.
No argument that the bean counters may have influenced quality for profit but now both PC and Delta are back under their names but IIRC owned both by some other conglomerate just as Jet/Powermatic et al. are owned by a Swiss Holding Company and already the nice Powermatic solid cast iron body, single casting, bandsaw has bit the dust and the Jet is it in that family now. That is for the sake of those who wish to be able to put a riser block in between the upper and lower castings to increase resawing capacity.
The only North American solid cast iron body bandsaw in the 14/16 inch range is the Canadian made General.
ps: I admire their Canadian made line of woodworking machinery.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fleming (edited 08-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fleming (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Dave Fleming]

wc.... She Who Must Be Obeyed.
Originally from the old H.Rider Haggard novel 'She'. Later resurrected by the writer of the Rumpole of the Bailey TV series as a name for Rumpole's grumpy wife.

[ken mcclure]

wc, just the opposite of HWWHCBO - he who wishes he could be obeyed http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/otn/angry/argue.gif

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Noah:


[ELIDED: tale of woe and intrigue involving burned out bearing and noticing difference in design between original bearing and replacement part]

Anyway I feel like this was a designed in flaw of the sander. Maybe a way to get people to buy new ones more regularly...?

Has anyone else had trouble with this?

I don't know about it being a "designed-in flaw." Stupidity is a far more likely cause than enemy action.

It more than likely the engineers designed it the way it was. The design got through QA (Quality Assurance) and was release to manufacturing and the product put in channel.
Once the Real World got hold of it, the returns started coming in.

A large component of successful engineering and design is the study and analysis of failure[1]. The good engineer, on discovery of a flaw, will learn something new and fix the problem.

In your case, an engineering change order to fix the design problem probably went in between the time your sander was manufactured and when you bought the replacement part. Should Bosch have recalled your sander? Probably not.

The flaw doesn't involve a hazard to life or limb. It doesn't involve legally culpable negligence -- if that sort of design flaw did, General Motors would be bankrupted years ago.

It's at most an inconvenience -- the mean time between failure for that one service cycle was somewhat shorter than it should have been. Every sander is going to destroy a bearing now and again -- it's the nature of moving parts operating in and around abrasives.

[1] The book To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679734163/qid=998084429/sr=1-8/ref=sc_b_8/104-3980507-1356755), by Henry Petroski, provides an interesting look at failure as an essential part of the design process.

For another interesting look, search http://www.amazon.com: do a title word search for 'engineering failure' and take a look at the list of books that come up.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
...Jet/Powermatic et al. are owned by a Swiss Holding Company and already the nice Powermatice solid cast iron body, single casting, bandsaw has bit the dust and the Jet is it in that family now. That is for the sake of those who wish to be able to put a riser block inbetween the upper and lower castings to increase resawing capacity.
The only North American solid cst iron body bandsaw in the 14/16 inch range is the Canadian made General.

Really? I notice that the Powermatic model 44 14-in bandsaw is available: http://www.powermatic.com/Catalog/Bandsaw/44.html. An extension riser insn't an option. I can't imagine them remodelling the design for the sake of something they don't sell.

[dasboat]

I'm with you KW,but it won't happen. http://www.themelee.com/smilies/s/contrib/geno/rofl.gif
Das

[Dave Fleming]

Nicholasc, that ain't the one I was referring to. That looks to be a Taiwanese replacement for the previous model 141 and is a steel framed machine.
From my old 1998 PM catalog...
The advanced design of the rugged one-piece, box type frame casting makes it the heaviest 14" Band Saw available. Ya folla?
PS: was also made as Model 143 Combination Band Saw with gear box for metal cutting too.

[Charlie J]

I have an old Delta combination metal/wood bandsaw with a gearbox. Boy is that thing a tank!!

Also have a pair of PC random orbit sanders - the 5 inch variable speed models. We have used the absolute crap out of both of them in the wood shop and sanding on fiberglass boat reworks. In something like 8 years of almost daily duty, I've replaced one set of brushes and one variable speed control. Far as I'm concerned the PC sanders are the best on the market.

[Bob Cleek]

Yea, what the other guys said...

The companies go through changes. You have to know who really made the old stuff. Some of the 1950's Crapsman stuff was GREAT... then... Seems like everybody has their "speciality." Porter Cable for sanders.. definitely. Bosch for jigs and routers, with PC almost as good. Milwaukee for hole hawgs and sawzalls and heat guns. Makita for cordless drills. And so on... I wouldn't buy a hand power tool by the color of it, that's for sure! There's "homeowner's grade" and "contractor" grade. Don't waste your money on bottom end homeowner's stuff, that's for sure.

A tip I learned the hard way when I loaned somebody my ROCKWELL Speedbloc (I won't let the newer PC Speedbloc out of my sight.) Some folks seem to think that they sand better if you LEAN on them, particularly when the sandpaper is shot. This creates HEAT and flattens the bearings right quick. You turn it on and it will rattle like an elephant's vibrator... and won't be much good for anything else until the bearings are replaced!

[Noah]

I have been very quite on this one when I should have given more info. Most Bosch tools are very good. I think my jig saw does a great job on both metal and wood.
My father also has a Bosch random orbital sander that has done countless hours under my hand as well as his.
My Bosch sander didn't last nearly long enough...While I haven't checked, I think that they changed the bearing design between his version and mine. I don't know if this was a company change in attitude, or what factor may have played a part in the change.
I was very un-pleased when the new bearing I purchased was sealed. This to me meant that the error was simply fixed, and not all the improbable. While not an engineer, I have both lived with, studied with, and worked with real engineers. We have a real problem if they are designing sanding tools without sealed bearings, and not knowing they would fail.

Anyway, my sander is fixed, I managed to wood the other side of the topsides of my hull, and I'm happy. I just wish that Bosch had thought about how to make my sander work for more than about 20 hours...

BTW everything else from the brushes to the windings are high quality, and designed with intent. This alone made me wonder why the bearing in my sander was so poorly designed.

Noah

[Rub Rails]

For cordless driver/drills? Panasonic. I have 4 of them (15.6v). They have 22 tourque settings. They are the only drivers that have the locking shaft. I drill & drive over 200 screws per job. After the clutch slips, I manually tweak it that extra quarter turn. They also charge in 20-30 minutes & a full charge lasts almost the whole job.

Random orbitals? Porter Cable. Belt sanders? Porter Cable, although I did have to send back my new one for repair after just a few hours (drive wheel & axle).

Polishers? Milwaukee. My '81 metal body was ultimately stolen after 17 years. only replaced cords, switch, & once...brushes. New plastic one is good & variable speed.

Dremels? My first one ('86) seemed to last forever. Every subsequent one I burned out in no time. The brush contacts & switches are all bad too,even when brand new. I have a Dremel type Ryobi that seems to be more durable.

Detail sander & saw? Fein. It can't be touched for the specialized precise tasks it performs.

Believe it or not, I had a Black & Decker "professional" (Home Depot) 3/8" drill which I originally intended to use once & throw away but converted to 1/2" & constructed 785' of dock space & who knows what else with it. I broke a plastic gear, which I was able to replace. It ultimately got stolen after 11 years.

Disc Grinders? Milwaukee

[Bruce Taylor]

Porter Cable for sanders.. definitely

Maybe belt sanders, but I've been through a few of their random orbit sanders. I keep buying them for two reasons: 1) I'm stupid and 2) they offer a pretty attractive ratio of price to performance (finish and dust collection are excellent). I can't recommend their reliability. All three of the units I've owned have had flaky power switches, and all three quickly developed sparky brushes. When the velcro wears out you have to replace the entire pad assembly, which costs about half as much as a whole new machine.

[Scott Rosen]

My Bosch RO sander is five or six years old and it's one of my best tools. I use the hook and loop disks and attach the dust port to my shopvac for dust collection. I also own a Makita sander and an old B&D piece of s@#t. The Bosch is far superior to the others. Granted I don't use it every day, but when I use it, I abuse it. It works as well now as it did the day I bought it. Not the slightest hint of bearing wear.

[Norm Harris]

Another take on Noah's original comment; the move to offshore (cheap labor) manufacturing was driven by the desire to drag a little more profit out of each sale, combined with the growing purchasing power of a few big box retailers who are able to drive the manufacturers margins to near zero. So, not only was cheaper labor located, but profit driven marketing forces brought about the replacement of high quality with "just good enough". The cost of returns and throw-outs was built into the manufacturing margin. Theoretically no one got hurt. The manufacturer got his profit, the store got its sales, and the customer (jerks like us) got our cheap tools. We won't go into the impact on the US labor force. That's a whole different topic.

The changes that we are now seeing are the result of the one part of the equation that was factored out. If you p*** off your customers often enough they stop buying. Then the whole pile of sand melts away. The sales dry up, the stores stop ordering, the manufacturer has a warehouse full of un-saleable tools, and profits become losses. Then, if the company is lucky, someone comes along with the brilliant idea that the customer really wants value not cheap and the products begin to improve.