multihulls superior to mono's

[warwick]

I have a mono in a yard populated by multihulls, 13 at the last count against 2 mono's, quite frankly I'm getting pissed off at the smartarse comments coming my way about the superiority of multi's, I need some comebacks to even the balance. :mad: :mad:

[Del Lansing]

"Of course you have twice the hull, you have twice the arsehole to float." Or you could ask one the smarties out sailing when the seas are up and they would be washed off the decks.

[Paul Pless]

"I bet your cat is really stable, even when upside down" :D

or,

"You got hatches in the bottom of that thing"
:D

[igatenby]

Which leads to comments like:

Why do so many monos go missing - cause they sink when they hit something, or when the keel falls off, .... etc

Go with the flow - try a multi

Ian

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You could try some variation of the traditional insult used by C1 paddlers to kayak paddlers:
Twice the paddle - Half the man.

[John B]

Why go there? Monos generally have more room for the $ expended, multi's are faster as a general rule. You outrun a storm in a multi and you ride one out in a mono.
Place yourself above it. A boat is a boat and thats the important thing.
I don't have much time for the old powerboat/sailboat niggle either.

[Rick Tyler]

"Good one. I hope you are half as happy with your boat as I am with mine."

Pretend your wife just asked, "Does this make me look fat?" The correct answer always involves changing the topic, and saying something nice to her. Don't respond to the insult -- ever.

[Kim Whitmyre]

JohnB put it well. . .I sail a small Wharram catamaran myself, for various reasons, but I have no truck with the either/or crowd. A seaworthy boat is a seaworthy boat.

Kim

[Thorne]

My father always told me,

"Son, never discuss Religion, Sex or Politics".

I'd say that mono-vs-multi hulls qualifies as the first category...

;- )

As others have said above - avoid it as you would avoid a Moslem vs Christian debate, or a Lutheran vs 7-day-Adventist one.

[ 11-13-2005, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[Bob Cleek]

Yea, the multi hulls get there first, but when they do, they are still ugly. No cure for an ugly boat.

[Wild Dingo]

perception Bob perception

Personally I like them all... monos and multis sail and power theyre all worthy to their owners as John so elequently puts it rise above it mate

Cheers!

[ahp]

My only experiance with a multi was a Hobie 16 that we sailed and raced for about 7 years. It was a lot of fun, but, multis have two stable positions, the right one and the wrong one. If you have a big multi and you get wrong side up at sea I don't see how you would ever get it right side up again.

I also remember reading a book by a man that sailed around the Pacific with his wife and raised kids on various boats. When they ran low on money he would get a job in construction and she in an office. They owned one multi, and hated it because it too light with too much initial stability. I was not "sea kindly". It banged them around.

[mmd]

Well, I guess that there is some validity to the old saw that, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Personally, I think that this Malcolm Tennant design is rather elegant...

http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/pics/wildthing3.jpg

[uncas]

The bottom line...Multi Hulls are UGLYYYYYYY.
That's all...they don't have any class. even if they are faster.
I would never even consider being buried in one....

[ 11-13-2005, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[mmd]

C'mon, Uncas, you can be ruder than that! ;) :D Surely you can spread insults about with a broader brush...

Remember, somebody probably thinks your boat is fugly, and you'd be pissed if they said so to your face in public.

[John B]

I get on fine with multi hull guys. I think they think one of two things.
1. "His boat looks like the centre hull of my tri"
or
2." he's mad. like me"

[JimConlin]

You could say that multihulls are very hard to build using obsolete materials and methods.

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.geocities.com/mariner767/top2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/mariner767/standing.jpg

[ 11-13-2005, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Dave Fleming]

Mr.S ,that Waterworld Tri, or one of them, has been moored down here in San Diego on Harbor Island for donkey's years.

I was told in a local waterfront watering hole that there were at least 3 similar Tri's built for that film by a French outfit.

It worked in the movie but, I just don't care for them. I recall the Dennis Connor business what a circus that was. :rolleyes:

[ 11-13-2005, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[uncas]

mmd... I did say they were ugly..but also, that they were fast.. :D .Depends upon what you want...
The thread was asking for comments which could be used to fend off attacks on his mono hull.
I just seriously think they don't have a lot of class.!

[ 11-13-2005, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

[Mark Van]

Most production monohulls are ugly also. I personally think the F-24 is a much prettier boat than the McGregger 26.

[Stiletto]

Well said John B! (both posts). I feel the same way about the 'frozen snot' comments, the important thing is getting out boating.

MMD, she dont look slow either! smile.gif

Warwick, just tell them to F##k off, it always sounds more meaningful in an Aussie accent! :D

[ 11-13-2005, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Stiletto ]

[Aramas]

Just tell them that their wives and daughters prefer the company on your boat smile.gif

[ 11-14-2005, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[Gary E]

Personally, I think that this Malcolm Tennant design is rather elegant...
And they look like Pickle Forks... FUGLY

[Ian McColgin]

Guys who trash a whole boat type like that - and there are some monohull geeks that are that way about tris and cats - generally have personal inadequacies about which they are defensive. Be quietly sorry for them and sympathetically note that the Japanese have pioneered surgical implants . . .

[TimothyB]

To me, it's a true Apples vs Oranges thing. They might both be fruit, but that's where the comparison ends.

Monohulls are (much) better load carriers, they are more likely to survive a collision with some unameable object, they are less expensive, they can be fixed with wattle, sisal and duct tape, they can be hove to, to many people's eyes a traditional mono is very beautiful.

Multihulls are very fast, very stable, very shallow draft and can be terribly close winded. They can have truly capacious living space. They are cheaper to motor (lighter and less wetted surface) and if you decide you can stand the speed loss, can be fitted with very conservative sailplans that survive even the most ignorant charter sailor.

The 'weatherly' business is silly. Sure you can capsize a multi, but it takes more energy to do that than to roll over a mono. If you are sailing conservatively, with a conservative rig, it can't happen. Multis have come through plenty of heavy weather with big para-anchors deployed (since they can't heave to). And,of course, even if you DID capsize a multi you have a raft. Of course, Monos have established, 100 year old stuff on how to handle them in a blow.

So, I think they are just different boats for different purposes. There isn't any 'better' about it. I mean, you have to admit, multis were a godsend for the dockside party/casual cruiser boat crowd. Those manufacturers got new life when they figured that out. Yeah, I think they mostly look awful, but they serve their purpose.

[Paulyboy]

Originally posted by TimothyB:
To me, it's a true Apples vs Oranges thing. They might both be fruit, but that's where the comparison ends.

But if yer talkin floating fruits, wouldnt a banana go thru the water faster than an apple OR an orange? Looks like a sleeker design with a sail atop her.

[Billy Bones]

I've always been stunned by the effectiveness of the anti-multihull mythology and derision. What a shame. What a waste of energy.

[Tom Lathrop]

Originally posted by Mark Van:
Most production monohulls are ugly also. I personally think the F-24 is a much prettier boat than the McGregger 26.Mark, that is not very much of a stretch, a Mac 26X is uglier than anything I can think of and Farrier's tri's are not bad looking.

I sail them both but seem to gravitate to mono's. I think I just like to heel. Tri's are usually much better looking than cats.

A couple weeks ago, I sailed a 36' cruising cat about 50 miles. Starting out under power into a 25kt wind for about 6 miles, it just loved to hobby horse - worse than any mono I can remember. Running downwimd we ran about 11 to 12kts but it was no fun steering (and a lot of work) so the auto pilot was used. The cabins were huge and had any facility you can think of but it was just not much fun to sail.

It was also not pretty but still several points above the Mac.

[maa. melee]

I'll bite. A boat is a boat. I find many multi-hulls beautifull and graceful, the same can be said of many monohulls. I also find some monos chunky and of bad form. The bottom line is there are just too many boats out there to conclude that multihulls are ugly. Boats are born of designed function and are used accordingly. Many proa's, although I'm not sure if an outrigger would make the boat a multi-hull are wonderfully traditional, able, and fast. What I'm getting at here is that the line separating the many different kinds of boats is just too foggy. I have personally had my share of self-inflicted headaches thinking about what makes a boat ugly to someone and grogeous to another person or, on another subject, how many FG 'snot' boats are actually built from a large precentage of wood and slathered in epoxy, much like the scores of plywood skiffs out there.

The important thing here is that we all go to sea and enjoy it. Whether for pleasure, career, or war, the boat we board is sacred.

[ 11-14-2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: maa. melee ]

[Mark Van]

I used the F-24 and the McGregger 26 as examples because they are both popular, trailarable, and about the same size. I aggree that the McGregger 26 is an extremelly ugly boat. I do think that most production monohuls are ugly, there are a few manufacturers that make pretty boats, but they are usually the more expensive ones.

[Chris Stewart]

Best just let it pass, but if someday you seriously need a comeback, you might mention that a tri is like a real sailboat with training wheels, and a cat is, well, just training wheels.

[John B]

This is quite an interesting thread isn't it. I've said where I stand on it.. I guess to elaborate I tend to look at the racing type multis as leading edge stuff... very finely tuned and of course astonishingly fast for their length.
mmd mentioned Tennants designs: some of you will have seen Afterburner in California. That thing was amazing to see go and they really pushed the envelope on the modifications they made to her. IIRC she started as a 40 footer and was lengthened out to about 50.
Rongtuduju( sp?), a New Calidonian Tri which regularly sails down here specifically to do the coastal classic race was the same, lengthened ,more sail area, more bouyancy where it counts. Fantastic boat and skipper to do what he does. Make a Pacific voyage , do a 120 mile race and make the same voyage back.Awesome really.
For some reason , we were surrounded by various multihulls this year when hauled so I would pass the time of day with the owners. Not one bad remark between that I can recall actually.
One story comes to mind though. This very nice ply Tennant of about 32 ft , perhaps only 3 or 4 years old was built by a man as his retirement/ last boat/ lifestyle. Last year he was sailing it and a rope fouled over the bow so he went forward to clear it and fell over and under. He was hit by the plate and of course ... the point impact of the plate at 10 knots... well it ruined him. Destroyed his shoulder and he had to sell the boat. :eek: It was the new owner I was talking to.
Different things you need to be aware of on different types of boats eh.

[Dan Payne]

Tri's, mono's, motorboats...It's all cool; we're yachtsmen! But I can't resist a good comeback. Next time someone gives you s@#&, Just tell them you were with his girlfriend last night (ala Kosmo Kramer).

[paladin]

That "Waterworld Tri" was made on the tooling of "Elf Aquitane"..
and having sailed one of each...and circumnavigated in one of each...I would say it is a matter of personal preference.....yup, multis izz fast...they also are slow when loaded like a mono....are bi-stable....pitchpole when no one is at the helm and a bitch in confused seas...and have training wheels for a reason..

[wyndham]

Trimarans are ugly sailboats with training wheels.

[emichaels]

Different floats for different folks. Who gives a **** what anyone else says anyway. They're probably wrong about everything else too.

Eric

[N. Scheuer]

I always tell people, "Everybody should sail what they like. I do!"

Moby Nick

[ssor]

My Dink is named ATF (anything that floats).
I offered to organize a boat club Called:WAGNPWAJGIF ( We Ain't Got No Pride, We Are Just Glad It Floats). Couldn't get any takers, too much false pride in whatever it was they wanted to call a boat. So no matter what side of the hull stays up, we all seem to think that what we have is best.

Ross in Bel Air

[JimConlin]

wyndham wrote:
Trimarans are ugly sailboats with training wheels.Izzat right?
http://www.wingo.com/newick/echo2-l.jpg

[ 11-17-2005, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: JimConlin ]

[ssor]

Yea, Yea , Yea, Whatever!! :D

[Paul G]

Dont waste your valuable opinions, you all might run out of them!

Tri, Cat, Mono who cares. One thing we all have in common is we are hunched over a computer and not out there enjoying the briny.

[Nick C]

Ask them if they would like to compete in a broaching contest.

Or something more neutral like, yah, so far I could only afford one hull.

The first one is bait, you know your going to get into a bad mouthing contest. The second one just brushes them off and they will walk away thinking you're a neat guy even if you have a monohull.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Well... you could point them to a recent article in Latitude 38, ouch! :

Fourth 60-ft ORMA Trimaran Capsizes in Transat Jacques Vabre
November 14 - Atlantic Ocean

And this time it wasn't even windy. The Italian duo of Giovanni Soldini and Vittorio Malingri aboard TIM Progetto Italia were 400 miles south of Dakar, Senegal, when Soldini switched on the autopilot so he could trim the sails. But the electronics failed, and the trimaran luffed too quickly for the skipper to regain control. The weather hull slowly lifted, and over she went.

This means that four of the 10 ORMA 60-ft trimarans that started the Le Havre, France, to Bahia, Brazil, race have capsized. The others are: Groupama 2 - rudder disengaged plus wave action. Foncia - hit by a gust while preparing for a tack. Orange Project - broken beam. In addition, two others have experienced major structural failures: Brossard - central hull split in two. Sodebo - broken port hull, dismasted.

[Kim Whitmyre]

Similar troubles in the Volvo Ocean Race:
keel failures (http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=26029)

There are such a wealth of designs in both mono and multi-hulls that generalizations are practically useless. Even with my paltry nautical history, I am aware that over-engineered, at-the-edge raceboats are highly likely to self-destruct.

These boats would seem to be light years away from practical, daily sailing designs, whether they be mono or multi-hull.

Kim

[mmd]

Do people base their decision on which family sedan to buy on the performance of the vehicles they see on NASCAR, or which pickup to buy based on results of the Baja 1000 race? To equate round-the-globe racing sail multihulls with everyday cat and tri cruisers is just as silly.

[Paul Pless]

Michael,

Not so fast, around here NASCAR certainly does influence, family sedan choice. :D Why do you think Ford raced a Taurus up till this year?

Paul

[ 11-19-2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Billy Bones]

Sad but very very true.

[JimConlin]

However much we conservative old farts might be shocked at the carnage of these race boats, it's very clear that they are developing designs, materials and methods which will help us build better boats in the future.
Looking backward, were it not for some young chemistry guys named Gougeon who wanted to build faster and longer-lived iceboats, we'd be without the materials and methods we (most of us) depend on today.
Looking forward, I'm very glad that they are being so agressive. More will be learned.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

mmd

Under other circumstances, I'd agree you have a point... however in this article:

And this time it wasn't even windy... when Soldini switched on the autopilot so he could trim the sails... the electronics failed, and the trimaran luffed too quickly for the skipper to regain control. The weather hull slowly lifted, and over she went.

The boat just luffed "too quickly" and over it went.. and it wasn't even windy. I'm sorry, but this has to point to a really major design flaw.

I think you could drive most NASCAR racers to the local supermarket, so, I don't think that they are so over-engineered as to be inherently unsafe... now, if they turned a corner at a low speed and rolled over and over... then, I might agree with you ;) But I don't think that's likely.

[Bill Baillie]

I sail both a mono and a multi. A mono for easy sailing and a multi for pure thrills. It's a mood thing I guess.

Bill

[Chris Ostlind]

Perhaps the NASCAR comparison isn't really appropriate. They weigh 3000 pounds, have total, tank-proof roll cages and the bodies are mere ornamentation for aerodynamics.

I think a more dialed-in comparsion for ORMA 60 tri's and Volvo 60's would be the purely state-of-the-art F1 cars. Fragile cosmetics and suspension components and a smash proof cockpit tub.

You could no more drive an F1 car to the market, without risking severe structural failure of the key suspension components, than I could tool around in a crowded harbor with an ORMA tri and not wad the thing into the nearby mega cruiser's transom.

These wild racing boats are out on their race course when they are experiencing these issues. Having little wind or having outrageous wind is all part of the game.

Until you've been on one and experienced how light, how stunningly fast and how huge are the rigs and how seriously engineered, there's no way you can evaluate whether they are unsafe or not.

Unless, of course, you'd like to agree that all racing vehicles are inherently unsafe. To that end, I'd completely agree and that's why we fantasize about them so much.

Juan Kouyoumdjian - ABN AMRO 1's designer - believes that from an engineering or scientific point of view there's no limit that would ensure boats not to break at VOR level of grand prix racing. Read the interview here: http://www.yachtingworld.com/auto/newsdesk/20051021140348ywvolvo06.html

Chris

[Kim Whitmyre]

Originally posted by Michael s/v Sannyasin:
I'm sorry, but this has to point to a really major design flaw.

And in so doing, Michael, I think you confirm what I and mmd stated. An all-out racing boat is not an everyday sailing boat.

[TonyH]

Well, my two cents worth is that if you're cruising in tropical waters (the Great Barrier Reef, let's say - may as well stick with paradise!), then a cat has much to recommend it. I recall visiting a couple who were cruising in a 40 foot cat when I was sailing a 40 foot S&S Swan in those waters, and boy!, it was like visiting a different planet! So much space. Luxury! It was nicer than the flat I used to live in! That said though, looking back across the water at "Byzance" made my heart lift - she might have been a little cramped but she was drop dead beautiful.

When you're lifestyle cruising you spend a lot of time sitting at anchor enjoying the ambience of the coral lagoon over a gin & tonic; and in those circumstances a big cat is hard to beat. You can get close in to the beach, you arrive there three hours before the monohull guys, there's tons of space to make dinner etc, it's all good. That said, I guess I'm must be a monohull guy at heart, because despite their undoubted virtues I just can't love a multi. And if I'm going to sail a boat, have a relationship with her, I have to love her and she has to be beautiful. She has to move me, that's why I sail on boats, there has to be some passion, something deep down that makes me love being there. Part of it is the location, the blue sea, the saltwater smell, the shearwaters and the flying fish, the sunsets etc, but part of it is the BOAT. A beautiful mono is a special thing, with a life and beauty of her own and thousands of years of pedigree behind her.

So don't worry about those multihull guys Warwick. If they're stirring you it's probably just that they're jealous that you've got the REALLY classy boat in the marina. How is the Carmen restoration coming along - is she ready for the water again?

Cheers

Tony

Edited to correct Sunday eveing red wine-induced typos. Did I get them all? :confused:

[ 11-20-2005, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: TonyH ]

[Art Read]

Sorry... I'll never feel completely comfortable on any vessel with "escape" hatches built into the bottom of the boat as a "standard" safety feature...

[Art Read]

(Notice I didn't say " aboard"?)

[TimothyB]

The whole "mono vs multi" argument is simply a matter of religion, really. If you look at the numbers, they both have many things to recommend them, and have safety records that more or less equate.

In both cases, when running a racing design you always have mishaps, capsizing, sinking, etc. Keels falling off and boats folding in half.. or capsizing/cartwheeling. It is all part of the racing world's risk profile.

Monos are NOT more safe than multis, nor vice/versa. That much can be seen from insurance numbers. They are simply different types of boat, for different conditions and circumstance.

Personally, I like both types for their respective strengths. I would choose a catamaran for shallow water recreational cruising in warm places in a second.. there are just too many advantages to them to overlook. In cold places, though, and for long distance a mono has much to recommend it in the cost vs load carrying catagory, since you have to carry all that fuel to keep warm and to motor/cook etc.

But either can do for the opposite situation as well! An oversized cat could easily serve for cold places and long distance, and a sharpie yacht could serve for shallow draught places. But, that's not playing to the type's strengths, and you end up with more serious compromises.

Its a preference, more or less, and at the extremes it is a bias. No, I don't think most multis are beautiful, but then I think most monos are ugly too. Its when you get to non production boats that you get beauty going on, in either case. :)

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

Just for the record, I don't have a problem with multihulls at all. My closest sailing buddy has a PDQ 32 catamaran and we trade off crewing for each other. The cat is definitely easier to prepare and put away at the end of the day (thank the roller furling), easier to manouver (thank the dual engines and controls), roomier (the cockpit is like a huge empty jacuzzi).

But, on the downside, it lurches violently when it encounters wakes (which we hit a lot in the busy NY Harbor) and I'm not sure I'd want to be on board in any kind of confused sea. And, the experience of sailing on it feels less like "sailing" to me, because it lacks the visceral feedback that a boat heeling to the wind gives you.

Still, if I had a large group of people to entertain on board for a week long charter, there probably would be nothing better.

And, for daysailing, it's hard to beat the thrill of a small cat flying along inches above the water.

But as far as the racing multis, I think that they are far more fragile than their monohull counterparts. During the last Around Alone race, one or two monos broke or damaged their canting keels (off Cape Horn), but they managed to limp to shore for repairs. In this one race report on the multis, 4 out of 10 boats had crews that had to be rescued from boats that had either turtled or completely broken apart in the middle of the Atlantic, far from any higher latitudes.

So, I don't think you can say that at this level of racing, there is parity between the two designs. These extreme multis are designed to go fast, at whatever the cost.

[warwick]

Tonyh, the Carmen rebuild is coming along very well, first layer of veneers is almost complete, problem has been having the time to do it all, am now working in the yard repairing others boats, both mono and ugh! multi.I have had some usefull retorts that have been used to effect, particularly more hulls more arseholes. With regards to the multi thing, having seen so many and worked on them as well I have arrived at the conclusion that for the most part the Cats are ugly, a block of flats on the water, Tris are prettier but gees they are cramped, a 38' tri has no more accomodation than my 30' mono, the added expense of the multi rig makes them for most part outrageously overpriced, we just launched a $1.3 million cat that has a hot & cold bidet!!!! it even has a hatch in the stern for the males to open and piss through so they don't have to lean over the side!!!, finally the multi guys remind me of a bunch of really fat sheilas sitting around complaining about their weight.A mono will roll the milk out of your tea, a multi will jerk the milk out of your tea.HA HA HA. tongue.gif tongue.gif