Silicon Bronze fasteners

[Notorious]

Starting to collect sources for restoration supplies for the Notorious. Can any suggest source for S/B wood screws and a good source for quarter sawn Honduras Mahogany.

[Bruce Hooke]

I get most of my bronze fasteners from Jamestown Distributors and Hamilton Marine. For large quantities there may be other slightly lower cost suppliers, but keep an eye on the quality because there have been cases of poor quality bronze screws.

[Notorious]

Bruce, thanks for the reply.

I've talked to a respected wood boat restorer and was told that Jamestown bronze fasteners were made in China and the quality was poor.
I'll be using thousands of screws so I want to be careful on supplier and want American made.....I think.

[Don Kurylko]

You also want cut threads, not rolled! I have found Pacific Fasteners to be very reliable and high quality. http://www.pacificfasteners.com/

[carioca1232001]

In the second half of 2004, I bought some 3000-odd #10 SiBronze screws from Jamestown Distributors, plus 1/4" and 3/8" threaded rod, nuts, washers and other sundries.

"Made in China" or not, I do not know.

But I can vouch for the excellent quality of the SiBronze hardware that I purchased from JD. They even sent me samples (overseas)for testing before I closed the deal. Excellent service, too.

[JimConlin]

Standard Fastenings (http://www.babbittsteam.com/special.htm) in New Bedford, MA

Excellent slection, reliable quality, fair prices.

[pjwalsh]

I'll second Jim Conlin's reccomend for Standard Fastenings - when I was purchasing agent for the Sample's yard they were our goto supplier for fastenings of all sorts. very nice people to work with and, although some of their stock may have also been made overseas, we never had any problems with quality.

Another reliable supplier was K.L. Jack Industrial Fasteners in Portland.

[Victor]

No matter where you get them, test them. Nothing is more annoying than buying a batch of screws and finding theye're so soft you can't remove any of them without stripping. I got some square-hole screws from - what's the name of that place, an Irish name? - and they were junk.

[ssor]

The other thing to observe, the slots in s/b screws maybe frearson and not phillips, be sure you buy the correct bits. I used several hundred, from Jamestown, on Bietzpadlin but these were driven into cypress with proper pilot holes. I can't say how they would do in harder wood.

[ 03-10-2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[seayou77]

Wherever you purchase; get in touch with the difference between cut and rolled threads. The good screws have a consistent dimension to the shank of the screw. I find that the taper point drill bit is not ideal for going into Oak.

[Paulyboy]

Originally posted by Victor:
No matter where you get them, test them. Nothing is more annoying than buying a batch of screws and finding theye're so soft you can't remove any of them without stripping. I got some square-hole screws from - what's the name of that place, an Irish name? - and they were junk.The Irish place is Mcfeelys. They sell cut boat screws. They're bronze, I believe. They come slotted or Robertson(square drive). I use them with a tapered drill bit especially for these type of screws (cut screws)

[John of Phoenix]

I've been very pleased with the quality from Glen-L though I don't know where their S/B is made.

They also have carriage bolts, threaded rod, washers and nuts if you need them.

http://glen-l.com/supplies/fasteners.html

[Notorious]

Well thanks for the feedback! It's great to have a forumn to pick so brains for informatioon and experience's. Thank you all.
When I did a google search none of these names came up (except Jamestown). I'll be checking out these leads.
Twenty years ago I redid a 52' Wheeler and used Jamestown for almost everything, and was very happy with them. However 20 years is a long time and I want to cover all changes. Back then Jamestown used to have a full page add in Wooden Boat. It's good to hear that JT is still taking care of their customers.

[Venchka]

Toss these folks into the mix, too. They did right by me and had a screw nobody else had.

CC Fasteners (http://ccfast.com/index.html)

Just a heads up: the last time Standard Festenings was mentioned here they were a wholesale only place, or tried to be. Do you have a business name? Might work better. In the end, they were very little cheaper in lots of 1,000. Times change, maybe they have too.

Good luck!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-10-2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[ssor]

Cabinet makers often drive steel screws into oak or other hard wood first, then pull them back out and drive the brass screws. Jamestown makes note of the need for a larger pilot hole for very hard wood. I have some tropical hardwood that requires me to tap it first with a hardened sheet metal screw before I can drive stainless steel screws into it.

[Alan Peck]

I also had great success with a thousand or so Silcon Bronze screws from Jamestown. All of good quality.

By the way, especially with Silicon Bronze, I wouldn't use anything except square drive. Saves a lot of trouble.

[Bruce Hooke]

But how do you clean old, hardened putty out of a square drive head when you need to remove the screw 10 or 20 years from now?

[paladin]

...use a square drill bit....

[ssor]

Bruce wrote: but how do you clean hard dry putty out of a square drive.....?

With an ice pick and some patience and sometimes a hot soldering iron

[Bruce Hooke]

It does seem to me that cleaning out a slotted head would be easier, but there may be a trade-off because the square hole may last longer in useable form as the metal deteriorates...

[Jay Greer]

The best tool I have ever found for cleaning, even a buggered slot, in screws is a jewler's engraving tool.
With a "Graver", you can literaly carve a new slot if necessary!

[Leon m]

If you dont want your screws to snap in hardwood,smear a bit of this on http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/woeimages/00001678.jpg I cant say enough about it...IT WORKS!

Jamestown sells a good bronze screw,but I'm not crazy about their ring shank nails.

Never been a fan of the square drive bit...in fact ,I hate them they're junk in MHO.Give me a Phillips head with a proper size bit any day.

[Alan Peck]

Just a qucik comment about the square drive screws. I don't know what experience others have had that call them junk.

I have had 100% success with them on several thousand screws. I particularly like the way they will stay on the driver in situations where you there is no room for the other hand to hold them in place.

[Bruce Hooke]

I use square drives for just about everything EXCEPT boatbuilding. For long-term fastenings in boats I've been sticking with slotted screws because the still seem to me to be the easiest head type to clean out 20 years down the road...

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Alan Peck:
Just a qucik comment about the square drive screws. I don't know what experience others have had that call them junk.

.Well,I made my living as a custom cabinet builder for many years in my younger days (18-25 yrs.old)and since then I've done everything from building ,remodeling ,and furniture making...oh...
and I have restored two boats and am almost done building a 20' sharpie. ;)

Maybe Its just me, but everytime I've used square drive they've left me cussing. I think the heads are weaker in the neck because of the square hole,wich leads to them snapping off more.
Plus they seem to strip easier than a philips.

But maybe its just what a person is used to... ;)

[Railmeat]

I'm curious about the ealier statement about cut threads versus rolled. Is there something unique to silicon bronze or marine applications that make cut threads desirable? My fastener experience in non-woodworking applications has shown that rolling the threads produces a fastener with a greater tensile and fatigue strength than cut threads.

Don

[adampet]

I've had good luck with this supplier.
bolt depot (http://www.boltdepot.com/)

[Harry Miller]

.use a square drill bit... Chuck, I don't think they're paying attention. smile.gif

Now I'm thinking of using pan head machine screws for plank to transom fastening as was touted by Harry Bryan in issue 182. I'm pretty sure it's this issue as I am looking at no.s 179, 180, 181 and 183 and it's not there. Any farther back and I know I couldn't remember.
I plan to use a forstner bit for countersinking so there will be a flat bottom for the pan head. I hope this will eliminate any plank splitting. I plan to buy them at Pacific Fasteners mentioned above.
(You can see I do a lot of planning smile.gif )

[corob]

Another great source. Bill at Southern Crown really does have it all
www.southerncrownboatworks.com (http://www.southerncrownboatworks.com)

[Alan Peck]

Leon: I was just curious about the problems you had with square drive screws. Sounds like you have a lot more experience than I.

Perhaps with square drive the quality of the screw is even more important.

[ssor]

Rolled threads vs cut threads; If you cut a screw length wise and polish it and then etch it you will find that there is better continuity in the structure of the metal in rolled threads then in cut threads. Flat head screws are not as strong as the same size round head screws, but if you are poping the heads off, your pilot hole is too small or you are overtightening. Again cut the screw length wise and look at what you have. With a bronze screw and a carbide blade and a chunk of oak sectioning a screw is not very difficult.

[Leon m]

Originally posted by Alan Peck:
Perhaps with square drive the quality of the screw is even more important.And the bit...if you get a good screw and use a cheap bit the bit strips out. smile.gif

[Tom Lathrop]

Looks to me that there has been a vote for and against every type of screw except torx.

I finally used up the last of an old supply of slotted screws and am very happy about that. Only my waste hating nature prevented me from throwing them out years ago.

A few years ago at the Port Townsend festival, I saw a beautiful reproduction Baby Bootlegger. The planking was fastened with 10,000 bronze screws set flush and with all the slots aligned fore-n-aft. There were no gouges that I could see from slipped screwdrivers. I suspect the poor builder was consigned to the booby hatch after he finished that job.

[Paul Maselli]

Call Ron at CC Fasteners.1-800-992-5151. Almost everything he sells is domestic. If it is not he has cert's on it.

I've bought and used over 4500 #14 x 2 and #12 X 2-1/2 SilBr. FHWS in restoring the Elliot White and may have lost 2 dozen to breaking, all being driven into white oak. These are all Straight slotted flat head screws with cut threads!. SSOR is correct that rolled threads have a finer metalergic composition due to the metal being formed and not cut, but a rolled thread will never give you a watertight seal around the undersize shank!!!!

Do Not Use any other than slotted screws. Testiment, The fasteners installed in 1936 were removed with a screwdriver for 85% of the job and when that didn't do the trick a left hand drill bit ground to a very flat angle will grab the old slot and back the old screw out. You can't clean out a R&P, frearson, phillips, square drive or torx easily enough to make them worth your while to use them. This is the simple reason not to change tradition, it works.

Good Luck, Post a few pics of Notorious

TheMobileBoatwright

[Paul Maselli]

PS. Ron's prices are consistantly less that Jamestown. Set up a wholesale account and you'll save at least 15%.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
But how do you clean old, hardened putty out of a square drive head when you need to remove the screw 10 or 20 years from now?My success rate at recovering anything other than slotted screws for reuse is awful. The modern ones may go in easier, but getting them out is a horror story. Dave Fleming's technique of a seperate driver bit heated, held in pliers, and tapped into the driving recess to melt out the goo works pretty well, but with some bronze screws...especially Phillips heads....I lose almost as many as I save.

That said, these days often there is little choice but to use them...and I suspect not too long in the future slotted screws will be history.

I'm now countersinking and plugging every square-drive screw I use, regardless of location...and plugging with hard oak. I keep a stamp pad loaded with old paint or varnish and roll the plug in it before pounding it home. That way no goo gets in the screw's driving recess and the guy who has to remove them some day merely needs to pop out that hard oak plug.

[Dave Fleming]

Oh Boy, screws and goos!

I can recall when a new build was about to start the screws would come into the yard in wooden barrels packed in sawdust.
I can't recall how many to a barrel but the barrels were about 20 gallon size.

I still use, if possible, slotted Silly Bronze flat head screws. I have been a customer at STAFAST for donkey's years. No matter to order 100 or 5000. If I buy 'NOS'* out here in San Diego I pay through the nose for 'em. Price on box of 100 1 2/1 inch # 10's was penciled at 18.00 now for the same box they are asking 40.00!
I looked the feller in the eye and said is that all storage charges? Price from STAFAST was substantially better even with cross country shipping charges.

Removal, this is something I have to admit we never paid any attention to. The poor fellow who might have to repair our work sometime in the future.

Plugs to be applied were held in a puddle of 'boatyard paint' in an old paint can lid or tuna fish can and, tapped in. Ayup paint on the bottom of the plug and up the sides a ways. When tapped in the counterbore paint would ooze out a bit as you set the plug.

Did plenty of screw removal and not once paid any attention to a better way of setting the plugs!
Just got to it and did the best we could.
Heated bit, hole saw type cutter, stout thump with hammer, worst case split the plank and use pliers to remove the screw from the frame. The last was made easier when Vice Grip pliers came on the scene.

Repair was NEVER a fun job.
Or so says I.

*NOS aka New Old Stock

[Notorious]

I'd love to post some pics of the Notorious but can't figure out how. There is one pic so far on its website at
www.feadshipnotorious.com (http://www.feadshipnotorious.com)

[StevenBauer]

You forgot the dash.


www.feadship-notorious.com (http://www.feadship-notorious.com)

http://www.feadship-notorious.com/images/index.gif

Steven smile.gif

[Notorious]

Thanks

[Railmeat]

Cut vs rolled: ssor, you are absolutely correct. The structure of rolled versus cut thread is far superior. The compressed surface of the rolled thread creates a stronger fastener. The reason for my question was the 4th (I think) post in this series recommended cut threads, not rolled. It didn't make sense to me.

Don

[Paul Maselli]

Have you ever seen a cut thread screw fail at its thread profile? Not likely, Most any screw will fracture from overtightening at the point directly under the head or where the threads terminate. The strength of the thread itself does not come into play here it is an issue of material shear strenght verses hole clearances. What is more important in boat building is having a screw shank that fills the pilot hole for a water tight seal. Additionally rolled threads usually pass throuoh both sections of lumber being fastened causing a situation where the threads can grab both pcs and not allow proper pull down. Rolled thread screws are simply cheaper to manufacture and that is the reason for their being.

[Paulyboy]

One last thing about square drive screws. Use lube to seat the screw, and always use a high quality bit. Mcfeely's has a selection of bits, and in their catalog they tell you when thewy substitute non American made screws to fill orders. I've never had a problem using their bits with their square drive screws or anyone elses, but using a cheap Vermont American bit, ot worseyet a Chinese made square drive bit will cause trouble every time!

[TomHaven12]

Can anyone suggest a source for 4 inch or longer #8 and #10 copper nails or rivets and roves or burrs for Haven Sheerstrake to Sheerclamp fastening?

[StevenBauer]

try here Tom: www.hamiltonmarine.com (http://www.hamiltonmarine.com)

[Paul Maselli]

Jamestown Distributors carries a full line of copper nails and flat roves from 2D (.072" shank x 1") to 40D (.238" shank x 5") The roves for the largest nails are #12 flat washers, all others are listed with the nails.

Hope this helps.

TheMobileBoatwright

[Paul Maselli]

Jamestown Distributors carries a full line of copper nails and flat roves from 2D (.072" shank x 1") to 40D (.238" shank x 5") The roves for the largest nails are #12 flat washers, all others are listed with the nails.

Hope this helps.

TheMobileBoatwright