Yawl Question

[BlueSpruce]

Looking for general information concerning the type. I have read posts here for the past couple months and feel that I might get some educated and interesting imput.

It seems that starting in the early 30's there was interest in long (50' range) narrow Yawls. Then through the 50's the 40' range Concordia Yawls became popular. Today?

Questions:
1. What are the strengths and weaknesses of this type. (narrow, Yawl rig)

2. Are there any notible designs in the 20' and 30'+ range?

3. Why (maybe I'm wrong) do we not see this type being developed today? If that type of rig had legitimate strenghts then we could assume that these would be of interest to modern manufacturers.

Thank you for any information that could be provided.

[Ian McColgin]

Well, two yawls by Stephens, Dorade and Finisterra, shows that yawls come beamy and shoal as well as thin and deep.

In some rating rules, yawls get a bit of a hand.

Some yawls have such an izzy bizzy mizzen that one fails to see how the horsepower is worth the windage.

Assuming enough sail area back there to be worth the effort, the yawl has some nice features, including:

Great place to set a mizzen staysail when off the wind;

Ease holding her into the wind for mooring and sailhandling evolutions;

Nice spot for a radar antenna;

Stays near the cockpit add security for gentlemen doing their business to leeward;

More nice wood to varnish; and

While "jib&jigger" is rarely the best solution to moving in really high wind, getting hove-to under mizzen or reefed mizzen and foresail gives a nice pause for prayer or swearing or triple reefing the main.

Frankly, there's quite a few yawls that sail better if someone forgets to plant the mizzen in the spring, but there are also some sloops that are enhanced if you saw off a couple feet of boom and grow a mizzen at one end and a longer bowsprit at the other.

In otherwords, it all depends.

A sloop is almost always the most efficient rig to weather, but most life aboard a boat is not to weather. Especially as one gets over 10 tons, any divided rig has major plusses in maneuverability, sailhandling and reduced individual component stress that make the extra expense worth while. Among the divided rigs, a yawl is likely to be the more weatherly and if the mizzen is large enough, they can scoot off the wind as well.

As Dole answered when fameously asked, "Boxers or briefs?"

"Depenz."

[Bruce Hooke]

From the perspective of pure aerodynamics, I agree with Ian that a sloop is usually the most efficient rig if the focus is on speed to windward. However, as a boat gets larger it starts to make sense to break up the rig to make it easier to handle the individual sails. BUT, a ketch or a schooner is a more efficient way to break up the rig (again assuming a focus on windward ability) than a yawl. This addresses a couple of your questions:

1. For any sort of multiple-mast rig to make sense (to windward), the sail area really needs to be getting large enough to be hard to handle as a sloop rig. Thus a yawl only really starts to make sense when you start getting up into the 35 to 40' and up range.

2. From the perspective of efficiency it really makes sense to go to a ketch rig rather than a yawl rig, but, of course, for a ketch rig to make sense you need to push the length up even a bit (relative to yawls) more to make room for that bigger mizzen without making the other sails too small.

NOW, if we set aside the almost total focus on speed to windward, which seems to be pretty much a given for most production boats out there, then all sorts of options open up. There are plenty of interesting yawls of more traditional design that are well under 30' in length. They exist because there are various handling advantages to the yawl rig (as Ian noted), because they look pretty, because it is useful way to keep the center of effort low and thus make for a lower-stress rig.

Another factor is probably that adding a second mast with it's attendant sails adds a good bit of cost to the boat, which also discourages production builders for going this route.

Another likely factor is that a yawl (or ketch) is going to be more work to sail (or at least look like more work to sail), which probably discourages some potential buyers.

What I think a lot of it comes down to is that the most of the advantages of a yawl are not the things that sell lots of boats in today's market.

[Thad]

Modern manufacturers in the age of plastic and mass production have, almost from the start, gone the way of full bodied fin keel marconi sloops so they can make them cheaply and sell them as fast, with big bathrooms and ketchens. Nonetheless there are a number of marconi ketches and yawls that have been produced over the last 40 years. There are a number that moor in Marblehead, and then there are the Concordia and Rhodes yawls as well as my SEA HARMONY, an Albert Strange gaff yawl design more of the type that you describe. The kind of talk I hear is about being complicated or narrow. She is narrow, but comfortable. The rig is slightly complicated to set up, but is simple and reasonable in operation. The split rigged boats here are remarkable for the time they spend sailing, often extended cruises. There are many great plans available in that size range. SEA HARMONY is 33', built to the 29' VENTURE design, designed as the ideal two person cruising boat. There are other Strange designs in that size range, as well as designs by Alden (notice design # 45, SOLITA) and others on both sides of the Atlantic. You might notice that the Herreshoff family boat for many years is CLARA, also a 33' yawl, but cat rigged. I don't find the yawl mizzen a sail of great power except in providing comfort and control. Sheeted hard, it keeps her headed into the wind at anchor or handling sail, under way the mizzen is most useful for keeping a balanced helm.

[Torna]

Well I'm partial to yawls, mainly because that's what I have. Torna is a Maine Coast Yawl - a 37' early design by E.F. Butler. See B. Mendlowitz 1st Book of Wooden Boats, p31. Plans are available from Mystic Seaport.

All of Ian's comments seem spot on.

In addition:
If the rudder should drastically fail, you could probably get yourself home steering with the mizzensheet.

With even a handkerchief set on the mizzen, yawls don't swing at anchor.

Around the crowded mooring field, Jib & Jigger is a nice low-power combination. Approach your mooring on a beam reach - at the last minute roll up the jib and harden the mizzen and she'll snap into irons. If you miss the ball by a couple feet, you can push the bow P&S - even at a standstill - by reaching behind you, grabbing the mizzenboom and backwinding it.

I think that there are a few reasons we don't see more modern yawls.
--> To Joe Plastic Sloop they look complicated. They have twice as many strings, spars, & shrouds as he's used to. He views all that as cost & complexity, not versatility.
--> The mizzen is quite useless beating to windward. So after you furl it you look up and see all those shrouds adding windage and holding you back.
--> They're comparatively small for their length. Many yawls were made in the days of long overhangs and all that hull aft is tiny - not good for much more than a shallow lazarette. In Torna's case the mizzen boom sweeps the afterdeck at about noggin height so it isn't a great place to sit.
Indeed if you were to chop off her aft 6 feet you'd end up with a 31' sloop - and that's about how big she feels inside. In these days of high prices, slip fees, & taxes few are willing to pay for a 37 foot boat with the usable space of a 31 footer.

But the best thing about yawls is that they're Pretty .
my 2c.
-leif

[BlueSpruce]

Thank you, "All" for your replies. I feel like I have just read a chapter about Yawl's in a good book about basic sail boat design.

This type of information makes all of the frustrations with computers and the internet worth while.

p.s. More info welcome tongue.gif

[ 11-21-2005, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: BlueSpruce ]

[Matt J.]

Our little yawl, at 24' LOD, sails well, and jib and jigger is a wonderful way to tackle a very windy day... the wheel can almost be forgotten if we mind the sheets. The mizzen is itty-bitty on Rarus, but it does add drive, IMO.

The comments above are accurate, though, so I've little to offer. The worst thing about our rig is that the mizzen is a pain to furl and bag/uncover w/o stepping onto the boomkin or getting in the dink. Fortunately, Jenny's little and doesn't mind going out for it. I think, though, that is a small price, all things considered.

[ken.bryant]

At the small end of your range, there's the boat I'm (hoping) to build soon: Ian Oughtred's Grey Seal, originally drawn for sloop, but he's also drawn a yawl sail plan. (Actually, two of us in the Vancouver area are about to build to that plan).

Still smaller is his (beautiful!) 19-foot yawl, Eun na Mara.

[Paul G]

very pretty indeed

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/1WBNZOffice/Sailinn/a1.jpg

[Thad]

A few years ago the Peabody Museum in Salem had an exhibit of painting from the Greenwich museum and I looked at those pictures of 19th Century harbors looking especially at the small boats, yawl boats, lighters, pleasure boats, water taxis, and whatnot, nearly all of them were yawls, for the same advantages I see for larger craft.

[BlueSpruce]

I take it that one should look at the mizzen as a tool for handling and trim, and disregard it as a driving force? What about with a gaff rig?

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by BlueSpruce:
I take it that one should look at the mizzen as a tool for handling and trim, and disregard it as a driving force?I wouldn't go quite so far as to say that, especially on some of these smaller boats where the mizzen is a reasonably significant part of the sail area. On boats where the mizzen truely is tiny relative to the main and other sails then, yes, it is probably safer to say that is mostly about handling, trim, heaving to, and so on. On some of these smaller boats, I'd bet that they do fairly well in heavier winds with just a mizzen and jib.

[Canoeyawl]

The mizzen on a yawl is the best deck hand you could ever want. He will steer a perfect course while you go below to make coffee, he will keep you exactly head to wind while your reefing (or sleeping!) and he will always behave on the anchor watch… his uses are only limited by your imagination!

[Paul G]

the mizzen on my boat is reasonably inneffective in terms of adding speed, it will not self steer under most conditions. but the aesthetic is perfect! The main advantage is holding head to wind, slow cruising through a mooring and maneuverability.

[johngsandusky]

Agrees with a lot of the above. My mizzen adds plenty of drive, specially in light air. also, she'll sail up on her anchor if the mizzen is set and sheeted. I can back her off her mooring under sail by backing the mizzen. My boat is a friendship, built as a sloop, but I like the handiness of the yawl rig. and she needs her mizzen to weather for balance

[Rick Clark]

Ian
As Dole answered when fameously asked, "Boxers or briefs?"

"Depenz."
I have use it on my 17' canoe for years and the mizzen works like a dream. A lot of the time I would use the mizzen only to dock it.

[Zane Lewis]

Yes the biggest point I see the detractors pointing to is that the mizzen does not contribute. The way we sail out yawl is that we use all 3-5 sails to get to where we want to go. (Mizzen, Mizzen Staysail, Main, Main Staysail, Genon or Reacher). Once their we use only the Mizzen, and Genoa or Main Staysail. This gives us a rig that has resonable sailing power, will go to windward in typical sailing conditions. (OK we will get Lee Helm to windward coming out of a tack if we bring the genoa in too fast or have no boat speed on) for us the benifts are. No large powerfull main swinging around. This means the whole middle of the boat is available for people and gear. Sails sizes (sq ft) are Mizzen 95, Miz Staysail 200, Main 400, Main Staysail 120, Genon 400. The boat is 34'OD and 44'OAL

[PVanderwaart]

So, what's the best size for the mizzen as a percentage of the main? One of the problems of yawl design is that if you make the mizzen exactly the size you want it, the mast is sure to fall on top of the helm. Murphy's Law. So, my thinking is that a lot of yawls have mizzens a bit smaller than optimum to get the mizzen mast a little further aft. (I also read somewhere that S&S designed yawls with smaller than average mizzens, and I assumed that Olin Stephens was trying to minimize a feature that he didn't want but the customer insisted on.)

I read some comments about the Nimble yawls that the mizzen was not big enough to keep the boat pointed into the wind under power (e.g. while raising the main).

A rig on the border between yawl and ketch looks good to me. Mizzen about 1/3 the area of the main. They were common enough around the 1950's. Thomas Gilmer designed a few, including the yawil version of the 26' Privateer.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by BlueSpruce:
[QB]3. Why (maybe I'm wrong) do we not see this type being developed today? If that type of rig had legitimate strenghts then we could assume that these would be of interest to modern manufacturers.
QB]It is my belief that you can find many answers to your questions if you read the racing rules. Look at the designs the following years after the rule on length was switched from water line to overall length.
Gerald

[Dave Hadfield]

My mizzen sure drives the boat. A lot. In fact, if I feel like wrestling with the wheel a lot, I can even sail upwind with it alone. (Though only for a bet.)

That's on a ketch, with a rig in which the mizzen is 8/10 the size of the main.

As for backwinding, on Drake the mainmast is a long way forward and there is reasonable distance between the 2 masts (she takes full advantage of a 4ft bowsprit). So it isn't much in evidence, even close-hauled. On most ketches, the main is placed nearly where it would be if it was a sloop, from what I've seen. Too far aft to allow the mizzen to draw when close-hauled.

In between the 2 masts, I can set up a spinnaker, but only because I re-rigged the main backstays with pelican hooks, so I can get the leeward one out of the way to give room enough for that sail. This is a great combination. It's the simplest spinnaker set in the world -- no pole and no extra controlling lines. I just tie the tack to whatever hard point on the boat is suitable for the wind -- usually a stanchion base on the windward side of the boat. Then I hoist away, and until then the sail is down the main companionway, so it stays out of the wind until I'm ready.

In strong winds, I sail jib and mizzen all the time. Works great.

And when reefing or dowsing sail, it is very convenient to have the main boom confined to the middle of the cabin roof, where there is good footing. Also the mizzen boom is above the cockpit, where there is also good footing. And neither of these sails are all that big, which makes them easier to deal with in all respects (hauling up, reefing, sheeting, stowing, covering etc).

I rented a big (43ft) fiberglass sloop once in the Keys. I didn't like the rig at all. The sails were huge, heavy and clumsy.

In truth, the reason most people buy fiberglass sloops is that most people just do what their neighbours do. Most people simply will not step out and do something different. But you of course, by merely showing up on this site, are not guilty of that!

[Railmeat]

Up until last month, Dad had a 25' Pearson Commander (1966 vintage) that had a (very rare) yawl rig. Very small mizzen that was pretty much useless, except the rig allowed a mizzen staysail while broad reaching. The boat went like a rocket when flying it.

Don

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/pae134c04a1dcd66c655f74c27ebadb23/f157c861.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p0f4ea7eb8cbd1b3c7becc1a9bad04e61/f157c85e.jpg

[BlueSpruce]

Taking into consideration what Gerald said about "racing rules" I wonder how much different most boats would look if they were not designed to fit (or stretch) those rules?

[BlueSpruce]

Thinking back to an earlier post. I have not heard anything on the subject of a Gaff rigged Yawl. Would most of the same comments apply to a Gaff mizzen?

[PeterSibley]

posted by PVandervaartSo, what's the best size for the mizzen as a percentage of the main? One of the problems of yawl design is that if you make the mizzen exactly the size you want it, the mast is sure to fall on top of the helm. Murphy's Law.

Regarding the mizzen mast position,I wonder if it would be permissable to set it to one side?....if the optimal position came right on the steering head,it would only need to be offset ,say 1 foot to port or starboard ?

[Don Kurylko]

No problem Peter, it was done all the time in the “old days” on yawls, big and small, without long counter sterns. It doesn’t seem to affect performance noticeably at all.

[PeterSibley]

Oh Good ! smile.gif

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally posted by BlueSpruce:
Thinking back to an earlier post. I have not heard anything on the subject of a Gaff rigged Yawl. Would most of the same comments apply to a Gaff mizzen?Well, yes and no.

Here is an example of a very famous class of spritsail rigged yawl:

http://www.thamesbarge.org.uk/barges/barges/wyvenhoe2004.jpg

It will be objected that the Thames barge is in fact a ketch, but in truth the sprittie barge is a yawl, despite having the mizzen ahead of the sternpost, because the mizzen is very small, and indeed originally it was stepped on the rudder head, and sheeted to the rudder, for use as a steering sail.

lots more Thames barge stuff here... (http://www.thamesbarge.org.uk/index.html)

The yawl rig is less common with gaff rig for a practical reason - the main boom usually extends as far as the stern, or indeed past it, so there is nowhere to put a mizzen mast.

Where the main boom ends inboard, there have been cases where a mizzen was stepped just for appearance (Claud Worth's Tern IV , for instance)

There were gaff yawl rigged racers in the 19th century, but the rating advantage of the yawl rig was particularly important under the old CCA and RORC offshore racing rules, hence the sudden explosion of yawls started by Dorade .

[Hwyl]

On a boat of the size that you're talking about a mizzen can be free standing (no shrouds) and that would make life a lot easier. (You might have to rig the mizzen staysail halyard as a backstay when you are using that wonderful sail.

As to nomenclature. We now have the engineering ability to put the rudder where it's supposed to be; at the back of the boat, so the mizzen should always be forward of the rudder post. Therefore, pedantically, all boats with a smaller back mast should be ketches.

[ishmael]

A jigger makes sense in a small boat, as a riding sail. Otherwise, till the sails get too big to handle, a single stick. Everything points that way.

My opinion, and I'm sticken' to it.

Those yawl-rigged ocean racers of the mid-century sure are pretty, though. A little silly, aerodynamically, but pretty, nonetheless.

[Willin']

One of the things I really enjoy about my yawl is the mizzen makes an excellent helmsman's backrest when sitting behind the wheel. Anything that adds to comfort and reduces fatigue's a good thing to me. Speaking of crew safety and comfort, Ian's comment about the shrouds offering a safe spot on the lee rail to have a pee is too true.

When I had a ketch, the mizzen sat right smack in the middle of the cockpit where it obstructed vision and conversation and was generally a trip hazard.

Unlike Matt's Rarus, my mizzen cover goes on easily and safely, but I had to do a death dangle to snap on the back of the cover on my H-28 ketch.

Note smiling crew:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5cc32b3127cce95bcc7eb5ea600000016108Acs2TFy3atn

Having had both, I favor the yawl over the ketch.

Cheers,