Epoxy allergy - 16 foot limit - please help!!

[kashton]

I am hoping the forum can help me find designs that fit this situation:

-- Builder (me) is allergic to epoxy.
-- Want to row/sail/motor (3hp max).
-- Shop limits boat length to 16 feet.
-- Have jointer/planer/bandsaw/tablesaw and decent woodworking skills

-- Prefer working with solid wood.

now here's the catch.....

-- must be trailerable.

Am I just a silly dreamer?

[JimD]

I know of a builder here who teaches traditional lapstrake dinghy construction and seals the planks with sikkaflex or a similar compound because the finished boats often spend more time out of the water than in.

[Old Bingey]

I built lapstrake boats for many years with both polysulfide and polyurethane caulking. They never leaked a drop.

Don't expose yourself to epoxy any more at all if you have become sensitized. I have heard some real horror stories, like, sometimes the reaction will occur from exposure to other plastics......

[ 11-25-2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Old Bingey ]

[RGM]

First off, you're not a silly dreamer. You just need to do a little more research and perhaps make a few additions to your wood boat building/design library. There are lots of designs you can build. Consider using resorcsinol instead of epoxy. Get used to making tight fitting joints and using a few more clamps. Is your shop heated? Sounds like you have lots of the essentials already lined up. Probably alot more going for you than many of the builders on this forum. Also, be a little more open to building with plywood if you're leaning towards trailerable boats. Study up on the proper applications of polyurethane and polysulfide sealants/adhesives. Go for it.

[ 11-25-2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: RGM ]

[PVanderwaart]

How refreshing to see a wish list that can be met completely!

The obvious suggestion is a boat like the Atkin Erika:
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Erika.html

Note the suggestion at the bottom of the pate to build it of 3/8" marine plywood.

You want to be sure your design calls for conventional lapstrake constuction where the laps are just riveted, or bedded in seam compound. No glue. A plan draw for epoxy glued seam construction would need modification with somewhat closes frames (IMHO). There are plenty of such designed by Atkin and Culler, as well as shown in John Gardner's books.

[Hughman]

Borrowed from another thread:

Originally posted by Jay Greer:
According to extensive tests made by the US Forest Lab, US Dept. of Agriculture, polyurathane glues are now emerging in new form and may prove to be the new age adhesive for boat building. Although the foaming action of the glue negates its use for gluing bungs, it has been reported to have excellent holding properties for laminating both oily and hi acid content woods. The report can be found by looking up.
Fracture of Adhesive-Bonded Wood Joints BryanH. River Forest ProductsLaboratory, USDA-ForestService, Madison, Wisconsin

[kashton]

Thank you for the replies and tips!!

My shop is heated, so that opens some doors I hope. Time for me to look a little deeper into the world of goos & glues.

Sikkaflex, polysulfide, polyurethane, resorcsinol, bedding compounds, Aerolite,
PVAc with acid hardener. Great stuff!!

I like wood.
I like work boats.
I like stout framing.
I like really strong sheer.
I like solid cross-planked bottoms.
I like designs by Culler, Gardner, Atkin.
I like heavy skiffs that can punch through waves.

If you are like-minded? ....please share designs you have found under 16 feet that could go EPOXY-LESS!! ... and on a trailer.

I have hope!!

[Tonyr]

Kashton, you could do worse than look at the Glen-L 15 (www.glen-l.com). It is a traditionally constructed plywood boat - no epoxy needed. I built its big sister many years ago, and was well satisfied with ease of building and performance on the water.

Tony.

[John Turpin]

I've always liked the lines of that Glen-L 15 footer.

[BRobinson]

Not to get off topic....

Originally posted by Jay Greer:
According to extensive tests made by the US Forest Lab, US Dept. of Agriculture, polyurathane glues are now emerging in new form and may prove to be the new age adhesive for boat building. Although the foaming action of the glue negates its use for gluing bungs, it has been reported to have excellent holding properties for laminating both oily and hi acid content woods. The report can be found by looking up.
Fracture of Adhesive-Bonded Wood Joints BryanH. River Forest ProductsLaboratory, USDA-ForestService, Madison, Wisconsin But why would the foaming action of the polyurethane glue negate its use for gluing bungs? I for one, glue bungs with Gorilla Glue with great success. Though it may be a little messy, it has gap filling properties and sticks like well...epoxy. I think it serves this purpose well.

[Erik le Rouge]

Interesting thread.
Ok now that glues have been discussed, what about protecting the hull from the elements :
Usualy plywood is "encapsulated" in epoxy.
What alternative for waterproofing and avoid rot ?

[kashton]

That is definitly the problem.

It has always been my understanding that if you're going to use plywood in your hull, you must glass it over and encapsulate with epoxy.

I am trying to stick with traditional materials and techniques. Modern bedding compounds and traditional fasteners used together that can allow for wood movement but not to the point that your boat leaks.

Spline joinery in a cross-planked bottom with lots of bedding compound and room for movement.
?????

Lapstrake sides, with lots of framing, well fitting joints, tons of fasteners and some kind of goop that stays goopy (forget trying to glue anything).

Also, doing your very best to keep your skiff from drying out (not too hard in Seattle). Perhaps impossible in a drier climate.

[Canoeyawl]

You can use plywood construction without using fiberglass or epoxy. Bill Grunwald of Aeolus Boats built hundreds of small plywood boats using simple lapstrake seam-batten construction, bronze screws, and Weldwood glue. Many of his designs were “copied” from Chapelles Small Sailing Craft. These were long lived and most are around today, thirty or forty years later. He was generous to a fault and there was a steady influx of apprentices through his shop building in the same way, but fiberglass was “not allowed!” You won’t have to go far on the west coast to see one of his 8 ft. “Jiffy Skiffs”
I have looked at many of his boats and the only failures of note were due to the kind of neglect that would ruin any boat. Stored outside without covers or ventilation, partially full or rainwater, leaves, flying off the trailer, worms, etc.
It is hard to beat a simple plywood skiff or dory for expense and ease of construction. Some oil paint on the outside, oil on the inside, you will be amazed.
http://www.duckboats.net/specs/images/aeolusb.jpg

[ 11-26-2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Canoeyawl ]

[Tonyr]

About non-epoxy finishes for plywood.

For the pilot house on my current project (3/8" meranti marine plywood, mostly) I am using a two part paint frpm Pratt and Lambert called Techgard (sp?). It is an acrylic urethane, goes on really thick, and nicely accepts a final topcoat of Interlux Brightside one-part without sanding (used only to permit easy re-finishing and ding treatment).

Smear enough layers of something like the above set, on good marine ply, and one ought to get a pretty water-resistent coating, certainly good enough for a dry sailed boat. Can't say anything on durability yet, but Pratt and Lambert's claims are strong, and I have not been disapointed by them so far.

Tony.

[BrianY]

check out Harry Bryan's Daisy . It's a lug rigged lapstake dory skiff made the good old fashioned way, but it is intended to be trailerable/dry sailed. Harry double planks the bottom with white cedar and he epoxies the two layers together. You could probably substitute another glue or go with the old timey piant on muslin cloth between the layers. Or you could use plywood for the bottom.

Anyway, WoodenBoat did a series of "How to Build" articles a while back on the 12 foot version. Harry also sells plans for a 15 foot version which is basically the same as the 12 footer except that it has some steamed frames in additon to sawn frames. Both are nice looking boats.

[StevenBauer]

Harry even has a web page!

www.harrybryan.com (http://www.harrybryan.com)

Daisy 15:



PLAN #6

DAISY 15
This larger version of the 12½’ Daisy has significantly more carrying capacity than the
12½' boat. The foredeck as well as greater length and beam, make her a good family boat.

PARTICULARS
LOA 15'
Beam 4' 7"
Weight 225 Ibs.

BUILDING DATA
Skill needed: Basic to intermediote
Lofting required: Yes. Create station molds from offsets
Alternative construction: Sheet plywood. (not detailed)

DESCRIPTION
Hull type: Dory skiff
Construction: Lap streak cedar
Intended capacity: 5 rowing, 4 sailing
Propulsion: Oars, sail, small outboard motor
Rig: Cat with lug sail

PLANS DESCRIPTION
Plans consist of 4 (11"X 17") sheets in booklet form.
1. Construction plan
2. Sail plan
3. Lines and offsets
4. Setup jig. and construction specifications

Cost per set; $30.00 Plan #6

[ 11-27-2005, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: StevenBauer ]

[kashton]

Great info.
...love the dory skiff photo from Norseman!

Harrybryan site is a kick!
Did you see the MPG download?
(warning, huge file)

http://www.harrybryan.com/mpg/rambler.mpg

and....who can top this:

"The band saw and thickness planer, powered by an
engine fueled with waste vegetable oil,
do the initial shaping of rough lumber.
Thereafter, parts are shaped by solar and
wind powered tools".

This guy is awesome!

[MarEng]

Had a lightning type sailing dinghy my grandfather built in the early 60's(?) - glued and screwed frames covered with plywood. Plywood was bedded and screwed to the frames. Interior was finished in oil paint and varnish. Exterior was oil paint. Paint was high quality marine grade. She was broken up at 30+ years of age - nothing wrong with the hull. She was stored dry and carried on the roof of the car - boat torture given her weight - she was dropped multiple times. The last time we sailed her the mast snapped at a soft spot. We short rigged it to get home. My grandfather called me later to state he had chainsawed the hull into pieces big enough to stick out for trash pick-up. Apparently he was feeling overwhelmed and being in his 80's didn't want to leave a 'mess' for my grandmother. I was sick - but recovered quickly enough to have him get the hardware out of the trash for me. He's now in his mid-90s and I think we both regret that day.

We also had a skiff - similar construction - that was still going strong last time I saw her at 20+ years of age.

My point is, it is only recently that we feel this need to make fiberglass boats out of plywood boats. Good carpentry and a good coat of paint go a long way to long life. I wish I new what the glue used for the frames was - but I'm positive it wasn't epoxy.

[Keith Wilson]

Not a problem. People built trailer boats for a long time before epoxy was generally available. Good-quality tropical hardwood ply does not need to be glass/epoxy sheathed if it is thick enough to take the structural loads. Paint is fine; although it won't tolerate quite as much neglect as a sheathed boat. Fir plywood checks badly without glass sheathing. MDO is fine with paint only. An ordinary flat-bottomed skiff can easily be built with lapstrake solid wood sides and a plywood bottom, and will stay pretty tight. Alternately, you can double-plank the bottom with solid wood, using fabric and some kind of goop between the layers of planking - white lead and oil if you want to be traditional, roofing tar or PL adhesive otherwise. Take a look at Wm. Atkin's Lark; (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Lark.html) it seems like the kind of thing you'd like.

[ 12-01-2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[gary porter]

Ducktrap Woodworking, Walter J. Simmons has some nice boats that are mostly lapstrake , can be built with ply or solid wood and of course use a lot of solid wood components, framing and such.
Have a look in www.duck-trap.com/dtw.html (http://www.duck-trap.com/dtw.html)
He is in Maine but will deal with you anywhere.
Gary

[Thorne]

Canoeyawl -

Darn your eyes, but I'd forgotten about Aoelus! The 8' Yacht tender in mahogany ply was my first wooden boat -- got her from the Sea Scouts at a marine fleamarket.

They had "painted" her interior by dumping a gallon of paint in and rocking the boat around -- but I had previously worked at an antique furniture stripping/ refinishing shop and borrowed their tanks.

We floated that boat in stripper, took her all the way down to the ply, and refinished most of her bright -- she was lovely, and when rigged with a Sabot setup she sailed fairly well.

Ah, ya never (totally) forget yer first one....

[ 12-01-2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[nedL]

I could say something silly like "if you're building a wooden boat what do you need epoxy for", ... But I won't :D

[sdowney717]

If you want a waterproof coating instead of epoxy there are liquid polyurethanes available
Check out uniflex at
http://www.rotdoctor.com/poly/polymain.html
the rotdoctor and

permaflex at
www.sanitred.com (http://www.sanitred.com)