"Irreducible"

[John A. Campbell]

As previously stated elsewhere on the Forum, I definitely plan to build the "Victor Slocum".....however I now have a set of plans for Weston Farmer's 10'0" inboard motor dingy "Irreducible" which, if built really light in glued lap (6 mm) Okoume and powered with a 5 hp air-cooled engine, would ride very nicely in the back of my Ford F150 truck. I would use laminated Sitka spruce frames 3/4" X 1 1/4" at every mold station, Sitka spruce seats, Honduran mahogany transom and trim, and a white ash keel. This project would satisfy the STRONG urge to have a small motor boat that could be used spontaneously on weekend day trips when my lady friend Barbara and I go to concerts, arts & crafts shows, antique hunts, etc. Might even consider a little electric motor and a couple of marine batteries for power. I believe I could build her at less than 130 pounds (gas or electric but without the batteries...the latter would be put in place after she's in the water) so two people should have no trouble lifting her up into the truck.....right? Also, this would give me some experience building an inboard before tackling the "V. S.".

Would like to have some comments on this......has anyone in Forumland built this boat or perhaps another one of the same general size......11' 6" MAXIMUM LENGTH? Atkins has the "Newt" at 11' 4" but I'm not especially fond of her lines.....let me hear from you.....pro or con.....Thanks!

[RonW]

With all due respect, I think you are wrong.
The weight is the problem, even if you could build a inboard of that size and maintain that weight, it is still too heavy to be launched from the back of a pickup.Boats are awkward, and even 2 adults would have to back down a boat ramp and be right at the water.Then you are tying up the ramp, and have to manage the boat at a angle, getting it off the truck is easy, but a strain on putting it back on the truck.
Portable boats just don't seem to be able to get light enough to be actually portable, with the exception of a solo canoe or kayak.
I have come to the conclusion that small boats over 75 lbs. should go on a trailer. Which leaves small boats between 75lbs. and 200 lbs. in the class of why bother with them. You would be far better off building a larger boat and having it on a trailer. Now you can put everything in it that you want for the day, and it is simple and fast to launch. A much more pleasant experience then screwing around at the ramp and putting a strain on your girlfriend.
Over the years I have owned every kind of small so called portable boats for small river and stream fishing, and they are a pain in the butt, and most are uncomfortable.I could easily get under that boat and pick it up and throw it over my head, if I could keep it balanced, but I consider it way to heavy for a man and woman to comfortably handle.

If you would conclude that you need a trailer, then you can build a much larger and comfortable boat for very little more, with most of the cost being in the trailer. Find a cheap used trailer.

One thing that I am sure you are not considering is seat heigth.Small boats have seat heigths around 10 to 12 inches, and consequently your knees from the hips down are pointing in a upward direction. After a few hours of sitting like this it puts a lot of strain on your lower back, and becomes very tiresome. If you build a larger boat, one that you can have seat heigths from at least 14inches to more like 16 inches, you will find it much more comfortable and enjoyable.

Spruce is a poor choice and is very prone to rot.
Ash isn't a great choice either.

[Brent B]

If you can back the truck with the tailgate over the water (further the better), then such a boat can be launched right off the back, especially if your support rack has a roller in back. You just lift the front end and walk it back. It is difficult to put it back in the truck, however. This is partly because you don't have much to grab on to on the underside of a wet boat.

Handling like this requires a resilient boat; more suited to aluminum or fiberglass.

Folding stadium-style seat backs can make a shallow boat more comfortable.

Brent

[George Roberts]

For about $20 you can buy a set of forearm forklifts - nice little straps that make lifting much easier.

Having solved your problem of placing the boat in the truck I will leave you with the other issues.

[Keith Wilson]

Launching from a truck is not fun if the boat is much heavier than a canoe. Even with the "forearm forklifts" (which work very well BTW) you will need another person, which complicates things. A trailer is much less hassle in every respect if thre's a launching ramp, particularly singlehanded.

A very small boat is not much easier to build than a small boat. There is a certain size below which normal-sized adult humans are not comfortable any more. Irreducible is very cute, but awfully little. I'm not sure there's really any benefit to building that boat instead of Victor Slocum.

[JimD]

If I were going to launch from the back of a pick up truck I would want an aluminium boat. Nothing else is going to take the abuse.

[helvit]

John, your migration from the Victor Slocum has been quite an odyssey, meandering downhill from Square One. What happened?

[John A. Campbell]

Thanks a million for the fine advice from all.....perhaps I would indeed be better off forgetting about the "Irreducible" and just proceeding with the "Victor Slocum" as originally planned. The idea for building "Irreducible" was not for extended cruising but just for very short exploratory visits .....maybe 1 or 2 hours....along newly discovered waterways, lakes, etc. But after thinking about it for a while, I am wondering if the opportunities for "spontaneous use" will present themselves often enough to justify building a very small craft like this. Anyway, I thank all of you for your valued input......John

[John A. Campbell]

Helvit, I always go through this type of agony every time I build a boat.....even when I'm building boat models which I have done for some 47 years......there are too damned many pretty boats out there, I guess, and it takes me a while to get lined out. In the case of the "Victor Slocum", I have spent several weeks of evenings looking at boat designs of MANY kinds and I always come back to the "V.S.".....it is most definitely my favorite..... so I'm sure that's the right one for me. Thomas Hill, designer of the ultralight canoes and skiffs, states that small, light-weight boats invite lots of use and that's one thing that makes the "Irreducible" appealing, assuming the loading/unloading could be managed from the back of a pickup but that may not be near as easy as I had imagined and the application may not be as sensible as I thought it would be.....anyway the "V.S." beckons. Hope this answers your question.

[helvit]

Sure does. As far as small boats go, I've enjoyed my 16 pound kevlar pack canoe for hundreds of miles and will never tire of being powered across a bay by a striped bass.

Your inquiries about the Atkin boat have generated a lot of response and information... it will be interesting to see what comes of it. Still lofting in April, I hope. I expect to begin the VS next Fall.

[Philip Maynard]

I built a cradle for my melonseed. It goes in the water easily, I have a small block and tackle at the front of the cradle so I can winch it back into the truck by myself. All of this works - the drawback of such an arrangement is that everytime I go sailing I have to load the cradle and boat in the truck and unload it at the end of the day. A trailer would be ready to go without the load oand unload time and effort. The 2nd drawback is the rear brakes get into salt water. The benefit is it travels easier than a trailer and no trailer tolls. I did this because I did not have room in my garage (boat-shed) for another trailer. I stow the boat on it's side in the garage on it's side own custom dolly.
http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/index_files/updated_photos/truck-cradle.jpg

The upper rack on the truck is so I can carry a 2nd boat, it's not part of the cradle rig.

http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/index_files/updated_photos/truck-cradle2.jpg

[rufustr]

Philip,
Is a projecting load like that legal where you are?
Here in Queensland 1.2 Metres is the maximum (4 feet).
Over that warning devices etc. must be attached.
Must also put a fair load on the boat.
Rufus.

[Philip Maynard]

It looks kind of frightening but I can jump up and land my butt on the rear deck and the whole truck bounces but it does not bother the boat at all (3/8" okume stich and glue) - the cradle fits it well - snug with no play. I believe anything more than 3 feet projecting out the back needs a flag or some kind of warning device. It's hard to see them but I have a pair of trailer lights on the rear deck which are mounted on a typical ratchet tie down strap. I gone 2 seasons and driven probably over 500 miles and never had any trouble with the rig or the law other than once on a 3 day sail camping trip I set the parking brake and when moving the truck to pull the boat, out the parking brake cable was rusted/frozen from the salt. A couple of bumps with the clutch and it freed it. I do not set the brake anymore. If I had my choice of this or a trailer, - for short trips I would go with a trailer, easier, less setup. The cradle travels beter so it would be my choice for longer trips.

[John A. Campbell]

George R., please tell me more about those $20 "Forearm Forklifts"......where do you get them and is that the "official" name for them?

Phillip, you're a man after my own heart!......carrying that beautiful Melonseed around in the back of that Ranger .......but I don't think the state troopers around here would let us get away with that around here. They told me that 48" past the end of a let-down tailgate is the limit, even with a red flag hanging off the back. As I recall, the Melonseed is 16 feet long....correct? My "Piccolo" sailing canoe (which is only about 8 hours away from completion) is 13' 6" including the rudder so, based on what you're doing with the Melonseed, looks like my Piccolo will ride very nicely in the back of my F150 and sliding her into the bed diagonally will let me just barely get by with the legal limits. Also, I have one of those "Wheel Away" carts and I'm adding a 3rd wheel to it for better balance plus adding about 8 inches to the uprights to get the bunks approximately level with a let-down tailgate. I also have carpet covered bed extender that plugs into the receiver hitch so I should have no problem hauling Piccolo around without a trailer.

[htom]

http://www.forearmforklift.com/home.htm

[J_Boat]

If you have a reciever hitch on the truck, maybe build a set of rollers that fit into the receiver and put a winch in the front of the bed?

'just an idea.

a little crude ascii art...
<pre>
winch
/
-O___________________________________
|-------------------------------------|
| |
| /-----------\ | roller
| / _---_ \ |_____ O
---------| / \ |------------|----- |
( ) |___|__ |
\_ _/ |______|-----//
--- receiver
</pre>

[Kermit]

I've always wanted to build IRREDUCIBLE, but haven't found a good restored canoe engine to power it. :D

[John A. Campbell]

Ronw, I appreciate your comments as I do all the others. The seat heights on Irreducible and Victor Slocum are about the same......14"- 15" from edge of seat to the floorboards. I am 5'9" and my ladyfriend is 5'5" so I don't really believe seat height is much of an issue as I am sitting now on a chair that is 17" from the floor and a drop of 2 - 3 inches would not be at all uncomfortable for me. I like both boats very much....the V.S. more than the Irreducible.....but the things I really like about both of them are (1) they're both inboards and (2) what I call the "swoop of the sheer" and the "plumb stem". I really like that sort of "sampan look". I don't like a level deck or one that slightly curves downward toward the bow unless it's on something like a Hackercraft or similiar fast motorboat. Most likely I'll wind up building both the V.S. and the "Irreducible".....I am retired and a widower so I've got plenty of time on my hands.....and boat building ( models and full size) is my ONLY INTEREST other than my ladyfriend and our weekend "flights of fancy". The "V.S." will certainly have to live on a trailer and it would be used only when the destination was specifically to a lake but the Irreducible, as I see it, would basically live on the truck on most....not all....of our "non-lake weekend" trips. I now carry the 11' 6" "Charlotte" solo canoe (Tom Hill's design) in the back of my truck quite a lot.....it's much lighter, to be sure, than the "I" but longer and it's no problem at all and I believe that the "I" could be handled without a great deal of effort using the "Wheel-A-Way" cart (which I recently purchased) ) along with a 3rd wheel added for stability and the bunks raised to same level or perhaps a little lower than the bed extender on the truck along with a winch arrangement as described by J-Boat on this thread. Also, the bed extender will have rollers built into it.

Kermit....tell me what the "canoe motor" is.........I've heard of them but have never seen one or anything specific about them. I presume they're extinct as all the other small water-cooled gasoline engines are? What horsepower were they? Any kind of reduction or reversing feature?

[ishmael]

John,

If you start looking now, you'll find a trailer for VS, cheap.

Building Irreducible could be okay too, but, for the reasons mentioned, I think it would be redundant. Build VS. It's straigtforward, save for the engine, which you'll have to face eventually, anyway.

If you want "back of the pickup" boats for you and a friend, look for some used canoeyaks. You can always use those!

I want a ride!

Jack

[John A. Campbell]

Yeah, Jack, you're probably right......I was thinking last night about the number of times we have actually seen a body of water that would invite this "spontaneous useage " thing of mine and I guess it's really not that often as balanced against the effort and expense of building a tiny little thing like "Irreducible". My new boat "Piccolo" is almost ready for the water as soon as Bruce Taylor gives me some help with a rigging question concerning yard and boom jaws (Bruce, I sent you an email few minutes ago) and I will be carrying her around in the back of the truck and that should suffice very nicely for day trip stuff. And I really don't need to sidetrack myself in the ultimate goal to build the "Victor Slocum" so I need to quit looking at all these other boats and possibilities and settle in with her/him. Thanks for the feedback!