Trailerable Cruising Sailboat Ideas

[Wayne Jeffers]

I'm considering designs for a small trailerable cruising sailboat. I'd like to begin construction within the next year or so.

From the designs I've seen so far, the top candidates at present are Stambaugh's Mist and Hartley's Trailer Sailer 18 or 21. I also like Oughtred's Eun Na Mara and even Bolger's lap-ply Chebacco.

Despite these choices, plywood is not my first choice of materials/construction methods, so I'm asking for suggestions for other designs, preferably in cold-molded or strip-plank construction.

Before I started looking, I made the following list of my requirements:

Must be trailerable, i.e., built cold-molded, strip-plank, or plywood hull, in that order of preference
I prefer round bottom or V-bottomed (deadrise) hull, not flat bottomed
I need berths for two with sitting headroom, galley, head – should show detailed interior layout (I can do interior joinery, I can't/won't design the interior)
Simple sailing rig that can be single-handed
Quick & easy to rig/unrig (the trailerable thing, again)
Shallow-draft, less than 2 feet with board up
Prefer light weight for trailering, ideally no more than about 2000 pounds trailering weight
Prefer to avoid heavy steel centerboard serving as ballast – shallow ballast keel or interior ballast okay
Must allow for auxiliary power – prefer small inboard or an outboard in well, rather than OB on transom

Anybody have any favorites that fit this description?

Wayne

[ 07-31-2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Jeffers ]

[Matt Middleton]

This one's close, but I have to suggest it because for some reason, most all the Gartside plans are very attractive to me.
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail3.php#weekender

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/106cb.jpg

[Garrett Lowell]

Wayne,

Don't know if you like Catboats, but Charles Wittholz has plans for several different cruisers, on the WoodenBoat Store web page. He wrote some of them for cold molding. My personal favorite is Bill Garden's Cat Schooner, 19' long, 7' beam. Maybe someday after the Shellback and the Haven 12 1/2, and the Dark Harbour 17 1/2 and the............

[garland reese]

Hey guys,

I agree that Mr. Gartside's boats are beautiful. I've been eyeing that 22 foot double-ender lately myself. He sent me a print of a small 16 footer that he desigend for a fellow a while back. She is just as pretty and capable looking as his larger boats.

As my children are getting older, and we are seemingly still a ways out from starting a sailboat, my mind is drifting toward something more substantial than the 16-18 footers that I originally set forth in my search (may as well dream big!!).

My requirements are much the same as yours, Wayne. Additionally, economics will play a huge role for us. Small is probably the best route to go when we finally come to choosing. But, I've been looking at larger, more simple and practicle designs of late and they are becoming very appealing. Reuel Parker has some intriguing designs and his building book is a good read. He has a series of boats called Terrapins, that range from 16 to 42 feet or so. He has a 21 and a 25 foot version that are said to be trailerable. They are constructed in cold molded plywood with polyester cloth in epoxy outside. He also has a series called Exuma that range in size. I think I am going to get his catalog just out of curiosity, to see what other designs he might have that are capable of being trailered. I like his sharpies, but I would like a bit more in accommodation than what a small sharpie could provide.
www.parker-marine.com (http://www.parker-marine.com)

I like the Cape Cutter 19 from Dudley Dix. It is now available in plans for plywood construction.
http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm

The 22 foot Romilly is a great looking design and is built in strip construction, with a fore and aft rig. www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk (http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk)

The Golant Gaffer is quite a salty design as well.
www.golantgaffer.co.uk (http://www.golantgaffer.co.uk)

Tony Dias' boats are beautiful and most all of the smaller ones are for modern strip construction. The 29 footer on his website is being built in Texas and she is going to be a stunner. I really like that cat yawl rigged design with the removeable house. You could sail in the winter even!!!
www.diasdesign.com (http://www.diasdesign.com)

http://www.diasdesign.com/images/bucWinRig.jpg

I kind of wish that George Buehler had one of his vagabond series boats that came in around 24 feet (or less!!!). Kind of a common man's Colin Archer, so to speak. I don't know how truly workable that would be, but it sound nice.

I don't think you could go wrong by choosing the Eu Na Mara, Grey Seal or the Farne Islander from Oughtred. Those are among my favorites, for sure.

I bet there are a whole bunch of great designs out there from designers that don't advertise in the major mags and on the web. Wish there was an easy way to hunt them down. But then I guess that would only serve to slow down the decision making process even further, huh?
Garland

[ 08-01-2002, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[garland reese]

Garrett,

Are plans available for Mr. Garden's 19 foot Cat Schooner? Garden's designs are fantastic......Eel is among my favorites!
Garland

[Garrett Lowell]

Garland,

Yes they are. Here is the link. Possibly my favorite small schooner.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=400-130&variation=&aitem =36&mitem=38 (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=400-130&variation=&aitem=36&mitem=38)

[Matt Middleton]

Garrett- I had the same thoughts about catboats. Sam Devlin also has one called "Wompus Cat."

A catboat seems the type of boat to be a good, if not the best, fit for Wayne's requirements. Simple rig, shallow draft, and light weight, but roomy accommodations.

Good luck!

[Wayne Jeffers]

smile.gif

I'm reading and studying.

I have only two problems with catboats:

1) Most are too beamy for trailering. My current top choices, Stambaugh's Mist and the Hartley Trailer Sailers, are at or near 8' beam, which is about the maximum for trailering.

2) Being no gentleman, I have aspirations of sailing to windward a little better than will most catboats. ;)

Wayne

[jan engberg]

Take a look at http://bluelightning.co.uk for three interesting trailer sailors

[Russ]

Amigo by Glen-L. Seems to fit every one of the criteria listed.

[Wild Dingo]

Actually just stick a www in there Jan :D
blue lightning site (http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/)

Your right Garland I was wondering the other night during an email with Anita Mason the same thing... there must be a huge wealth of "timeless" designs from many designers who for whatever reasons have no website or are hard to track down plans for.

mmmmm am wondering if Anita will jump in and let us in on one of her dads designs in this range? :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 08-01-2002, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Garrett Lowell]

Sorry Wayne. Having no experience with catboats, I didn't realize that they don't go to windward so well. As for me, I avoid it (going to windward) as much as possible.

[garland reese]

Hey Shane,

I recently had a bit of correspondence with Anita. I asked her about any possibilities for boats that would fit into a category such as Wayne described here (trailerable, not too heavy, easy to rig, etc.). She sent me some files for two 21 foot plywood cruising sailboats. They are both keel boats, so would not be easily trailed, but they are very nice designs.........kind of have a modern flare about them.
She also sent me an article on Mr. Mason's SOkurst (sp???) design. It is an absolutely wonderful 23 foot double ender, reminiscent of the Folkboat type, but sort of leaner, more elegant looking (dang that sounds more like a woman.........I gotta stop looking at boat designs :eek: ). Not built for trailer sailing, but a beauty!
It is unfortunate that he didn't do any design work for boats that would fill these kinds of needs................I'd bet they wouldda been fine designs.

Garland

[Matt Middleton]

Garland- are there any photos showing Romilly's accomodations/layout?

Hey Russ- anything in the works? Did you ever check out that pilot cutter?

[Alan D. Hyde]

I was on a catboat off Plum Island years ago that sailed well to windward. So the thought that ALL catboats don't is not true.

I'd sniff around catboat designs a little, Wayne, and see if there's not one that does beat well. If there is, the other characteristics of a good catboat all fit very well the specs. you listed.

In sailing, as in science, business, and our dealings with other people, our assumptions often end up biting us. If, after looking at the various catboat designs, you find that you were right to begin with, you'll still have expanded your knowledge base.

Alan

[Matt Middleton]

I've seen some catboats that have a cat sloop or marconi option. Would this type of rig sail better to windward than the big single main, or is it that ability more a characteristic of the hull?

[A. Mason]

Okay, I'll hop in. My father designed three under twenty-one foot designs.

The smallest is the vee bottom STARFISH, a tad under 18 feet, with a small cabin trunk, a beam of 6' 3". and draft of 3' 4", designed in 1930. She's got a full keel but not a huge one. Designed for planking.

Next is CARINITA, a 21' 1". LOA, beam of 6' 9" and a ballast keel for a draft of 3' 6". Some folks have called her "ugly" but she's been remarkably seaworthy, as well as popular. At one time there was an International CARINITA Class Association. Little as she is, she's made three crossings between San Francisco and Honolulu, and one outside passage from the Gulf to Maine.

The third is ANITRA, younger sister of CARINITA, with the same dimensions, but different style cabin trunk and sailing rig. Both of these girls were designed for plywood construction.

These three, as well as 25 other "how-to-build" small watercraft are being put together into one massive book [178 pages and counting.]

I can send PDFs of the above mentioned little sailboats to anyone interested, though there will be a slight delay [a day or two] in sending CARINITA/ANITRA, I'm still working on that chapter. STARFISH is ready to go.

Hope this helps, Anita

[JimD]

I've always liked the Gartside designs, too. Wayne, can I ask why you don't like the heavy centerboards? They solve a lot of problems for trailer sailers.

Boats like Glen-Ls Amigo and Gartside's next boat up in size (without a centerboard) seem to be very seaworthy, but they have deep, full, keels, harder to trailer. They are also on the heavy side for what you want do too plenty of ballast

[Wild Dingo]

Thanks Anita I was wondering if there was anything... sign me up whenever your ready! :D

Now Im gonna wade in with a question some will probably tut tut me for but what the heck?... curiosity has me in her tenacious grip...

Now if we have a centreboarder... can that centreboarder be changed to a leeboarder with relative ease?... this would seem to open the whole boat up for those overnight and weekend jaunts adding a better demension of comfort... Or does the design have to be a centreboarder?

Okay so what is the benifits of the sailability of leeboards verses centreboards? and visaversa?

Sorry to hijack the thread here Wayne but... these are questions that have been plagueing me!... And Ive been waiting for just such a thread to find the answer!! :D ... Some of the designs with centreboards realy are sweet... except for the ruddy centreboard!!... So if I do away with the centreboard and "whack" on leeboards what then is the method of distributing the lost weight of the centreboard into the leeboards?

Take it easy
Shane

[Matt Middleton]

Hey Shane,
There's somewhat of a happy medium between center and leeboards on Devlin's Wompus Cat (http://http://www.devlinboat.com/dcwompuscat.htm) . It uses what he calls an "off-centerboard" that's offset to one side of the keel, and forms the edge of some of the interior joinery.

Not really an answer to the question, but a practical compromise.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by JimD:
I've always liked the Gartside designs, too. Wayne, can I ask why you don't like the heavy centerboards? They solve a lot of problems for trailer sailers.

Jim,

I really like the Gartside boats, too. All I'm lacking here in hilly SE Ohio is deep water, else I would be looking at fixed keel boats (which includes most of his designs.)

My objection is mainly to heavy steel centerboards. Perhaps only my own prejudice. I realize more weight, lower, helps improve righting moment. But to answer your question:

A steel centerboard of several hundred pounds (e.g., Glen-L's Tango) is something I don't want to have to deal with in building. Buying inch-thick steel plate and having it machined and hauled home. :( Collecting tire weights and casting on-site a lead keel seems less trouble to me. Casting and moving lead pigs for internal ballast seems even less trouble.

I worry about the potential for a metal centerboard bending in a hard grounding (not that I would ever expect to do something like that, of course).

I worry about maintenance on a board that can potentially rust.

I'd rather not bother with the heavy tackle needed to raise an extremely heavy centerboard.

I worry about problems with the pivot pin on an extremely heavy board.

I appreciate all the ideas. I'm still looking and studying! What other favorites does anyone have?

Wayne

[Garrett Lowell]

I like the Bruce Roberts Spray 22 and the Roberts 19. Sorry if these have already been covered.

[JimD]

Wayne, I have a Glen-L minuet, tho the centerboard is only half inch steel and light enough for me to manhandle it into place. The Tango, I believe, has a 1 inch steel board. The boards are galvanized so not much rust to worry about, the pins are standard heavy gauge stainless steel bolts available at good hardware stores and should last years. Any simple hand cranked boat winch is all you need to raise and lower the board and the handles come off so all you have is the small cable drum bolted to the trunk. I doubt if 1 inch steel will deform any easier than a lead keel, maybe less.

There's a guy here in Calgary building a Tango I've been emailing with, I don't know if he's in this forum, but I'll ask him what it was like getting the board installed.

[Billy Bones]

Fascinating thread, guys. I'm enjoying it and learning a bit from it too.

Some thoughts on the steel board:

Originally posted by Wayne Jeffers:


My objection is mainly to heavy steel centerboards. Perhaps only my own prejudice. I realize more weight, lower, helps improve righting moment. But to answer your question:

A steel centerboard of several hundred pounds (e.g., Glen-L's Tango) is something I don't want to have to deal with in building. Buying inch-thick steel plate and having it machined and hauled home. :( Collecting tire weights and casting on-site a lead keel seems less trouble to me.

--I think you'll find that to be a false economy. Steel is cheap and easy to deal with, particularly where you are.

Casting and moving lead pigs for internal ballast seems even less trouble.

--Perhaps, but inside ballast for a light trailerable boat poses many problems and potential dangers which deserve honest scrutiny.

I worry about the potential for a metal centerboard bending in a hard grounding (not that I would ever expect to do something like that, of course).

--Ha Ha Ha!!! LOL!!! They aint made the 2000#trailersailer that can bend a 1" steel plate. If you do manage to bend it it's probably because you got stuck in the intake if the hoover dam, in which case you have other more immediate concerns.

I worry about maintenance on a board that can potentially rust.

Good point, though in fresh water a coat of epoxy and paint should last fine, particularly if you add graphite. Many keels are steel and live in salt water (used to own one) and do fine.

I'd rather not bother with the heavy tackle needed to raise an extremely heavy centerboard.

--Valid point, though it's not as big a bother as you might think. Less bother than say the winch on the trailer which you'll use every time too.

I worry about problems with the pivot pin on an extremely heavy board.

--I'd let the designer worry about that.

I appreciate all the ideas. I'm still looking and studying! What other favorites does anyone have?

Wayne

[Alan D. Hyde]

Wayne-------

I'm going to try to move some things over from other threads...

*****

My YM 3-tonner, Sanderling, is a bilge-keeler, a little different to a twin-keeler in that she has a central ballast keel flanked by non-ballast short steel bilge-keels of fractionally less draft.
The ballast keel takes the weight when she grounds, while the bilge keels stop her falling over.

It's a wonderful design for gunkholing, and moreover removes the need for a c/b with its attendant problems (usually including its case protruding into the accommodation.)

By the way, Sanderling is 20' on deck, she sleeps two in full-length berths, has a head, and sports a separate galley and chart-table. All this and only 2'-9" draft, thanks to the bilge-keels.

Sanderling takes the mud very comfortably in her berth outside my back gate twice every day. I wouldn't consider anything but a bilge-keeler like her for the shoal waters I sail in.

Mike Field

******

A little heavier than you want, Wayne, but there's much to be said for bilge keels.

Alan

P.S. Sanderling is very pretty, is unusually roomy below, and looks to be an excellent design from a respected designer. Unfortunately, all the photos I have found so far were on Photopoint... If I recall correctly, she is strip-built.

[ 08-01-2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

Alan,

Thanks.

Mike's is, indeed, a lovely strip-plank boat. I can recall seeing the photos. But I doubt fixed bilge keels will work well off a trailer. Anybody have any experience? One of the attractions to me of Oughtred's Eun Na Mara is that it uses retracting bilgeboards, which keep the cabin free of a centerboard case.

For me, the nearest lake for sailing anything much bigger than a Sunfish is 1 1/2 hours away. Lake Erie is almost 200 miles. Leaving a boat in the water is not an option for me. I need to launch and retrieve with each sailing. (Or maybe I need to move. smile.gif )

Few lakes around here have hoists. The ramps are often short and not too deep (I've backed the wheels of my trailer off the underwater end of a few while launching my little skiff.) Easy launching and retrieving from a ramp is imperative. To me this means shallow draft (18 inches may be a better maximum than two feet) and manageable size and weight.

Wayne

[Alan D. Hyde]

Wayne-------

One more avenue to investigate, from Ted Brewer's web page


The Cape Cod Cat

Cape Cod Cat Specs
LOA---21'7"
LWL---20'0"
BEAM---10'0"
DRAFT---2'3"
SAIL AREA---374 sq. ft.
DISPLACEMENT---5850 lbs.
DISPL/LENGTH RATIO---326.5
SA/DISPL RATIO---18.4
PRISMATIC COEFF---.558
CAPSIZE SCREENING FACTOR---2.2
TANKS--20 gals fuel

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/CCCQC.jpg

CAPE COD CAT
A proven east coast 22' catboat design for wood construction
Brewer Design #42

This design is a chine version of the popular Cape Cod catboat and was prepared as a simple-to-build version of this famous type. Many have been built by competent amateur builders and one, at least, was professionally built to very high standards by Sam Devlin for a well-known TV star.

Like all catboats, the CAPE COD provides comfortable accommodations for her length. She features 2 berths, a small galley and head inside the cabin and the spacious cockpit can easily accommodate 2 more people under a boom tent for family cruising.

For picnicking, the CAPE COD can seat a daysailing party of 6-8 people with ease.

Construction is on the husky side with commercial 2 x 4 framing and heavy plywood planking for strength, durability and simplicity. She can also be strip planked if that method is preferred. There is nothing in the design that cannot be handled by a good wood worker.

Power is by a small inboard gas or diesel engine of 5-10 hp with a 20 gallon fuel tank. Several boats have used outboard power successfully as well and a 10 hp motor hung on a transom mount will move her along very nicely indeed.

Tremendous stability is inherent in the beamy catboat hull and this is enhanced by her vee bottom form. With a sail area/displacement ratio of over 18 the CAPE COD will move along nicely in any weather. All halyards lead to the cockpit so there is no need to go forward to handle sail, and there are deep reefs for heavy weather. The boatman requiring an able, comfortable and simple-to-build cruising boat would do well to give the CAPE COD some serious consideration.

These boats often sailed many miles offshore when handled by professional fishermen and one happy owner of the CAPE COD reported: "I sailed to the Dry Tortugas at the end of May. The round trip was approximately 500 miles. The boat sails fine and I am well satisfied. The seas ran about 10 feet at one part of the trip but the boat offered a feeling of security at all times. Thank you for the accommodating assistance you have offered, and a fine boat." -- T.W.L. - Clearwater, Florida


http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/capecodcat_layout_sm.gif

"I have a 'Brewer 22" and have been sailing her for about 10 years. I become more and more delighted with her the more experience I get, although it was a bit scary at first. She is fast, comfortable, very seaworthy and we do a lot of cruising (2 adults) and live quite luxuriously for a week at a time (a dodger and cockpit tent are mandatory for these trips around Nova Scotia.) She is surprisingly quick in light airs and has plenty of momentum once she gets going (mine is 3 tons). She is very fast reaching and running and can be made very powerful going up wind, although she doesn't point well (I don't think any of the gaff cats really do) so you have to learn the upwind techniques" -- G. S. - owner of Queen Celeste, Nova Scotia

***

I'll try to bring some photos over, then I'll explain my thoughts. I know, I know, it's not dead-on your specs., Wayne, but give me a minute here...

OK, now that we've got some images...

She's a near miss on three grounds: weight, weatherliness, and beam (too wide to trailer).
However, were she marconi (as was the weatherly cat I recall) I think she might be fairly weatherly. Judicious construction could save quite a bit of weight, as would a lighter engine and a reduction in beam. I'd say breed this boat to Sanderling , and the filly that results may give you just what you wish.

Modest bilge keels could actually be an asset with respect to trailering. With the right trailer set-up, you could float off and crank on just fine...

And one sail does make life on board a little simpler.

Now, where's the N/A to preside over this happy union and birth??? Or has someone already done so? Is there something Devlin has done that's close?

Alan

[ 08-01-2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[JimD]

Not many designers around who are respected more than Ted Brewer. I have chosen one of his boats for my next project

[CyberRebel]

I've been eyeballing Brewer's Cape Cod Cat myself. It's either going to be that, or a Princess Sharpie next time. Depends on how much time and money I want to invest.

[Wild Dingo]

Wayne
Did you get the pdf files from Anita? You should also ask her for the one for Sørkust~! Very similar to Eun Mara, Grey Seal and Elly... but different... sorta! :D ...I think if the sail plan was changed... but then Im a gonner on gaff rigs and think she would be idealic with one such... and if the mast was made with a tabanacle for laying it down she would be nigh on perfeck... pretty much fills all the above criteria I should think... maybe... possibly... could be... sigh oh dear and now weve gone and added more confusion to an already befuddled mind :D

Oh buggar just went and squinted real bad at the pdf files I have and we muffed it with these two requirements...
Originally posted by Wayne Jeffers
Shallow-draft, less than 2 feet with board up
Prefer light weight for trailering, ideally no more than about 2000 pounds trailering weight


So with a LOA of 23' a draft of 3'6" and a displacement of 4,270lbs Sørkust seems out eh? :( but none the less she seems to meet all the other criteria no? :rolleyes: ... worth a looksee anyway if your into Eun Mara and Grey Seal :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 08-02-2002, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Steve Paskey]

Another possibility from Bolger: ST. VALERY. Construction is a combination of clinker-ply and sheet-ply, with a rounded bilge and high sides. Very pretty: she was inspired by French fishing boats. She also has great stability.

Draft is 1 foot with the board up; trailer weight 2200 pounds (she uses water ballast, and the tanks will fill or drain in 10 minutes); and the outboard is in a well. Plenty of space down below for 2 -- the centerboard is relatively far forward, which minimizes the intrusion into the cabin. The rig is a cat schooner (two sails, think cat-ketch in reverse), which is said to be easier to single-hand than some might think.

The boat is said to sail well and has a LOT of style. Unfortunately, I can't find a photo on the internet. There's a nice writeup of the prototype boat (built by Sam Devlin) in WB no. 157.

[Buddy Sharpton]

Wayne, not to derail your train of thought , but are sold are you on building yourself?. If you can get a hold of Bolgers book of designs there's an 18 foot sloop called I believe Blueberry with an inboard diesel, tabernacles mast, v bottom ply. It was designed for someone who took eight years to build her to the nines. I've seen it advertised in Messing About in Boats for $7000, I think because he's said too old to keep sailing. It lies in Hamburg Cove on the Connecticut River in Essex and I have seen her- beautiful! Really might be worth a look because at that price you couldn't pay for the materials, much less inboard and sails, and it fits your specifications perfectly. This is a traditional looking boat like Redwing, not an "unusual, thinking outside of the box, boxy looking Bolger boat" that comes to mind sometimes with the name Bolger.

[Greg H]

I'll add my 2d in here, There is an article or two on this boat in WaterCraft Magazine. I've seen Roger Dongray's plastic variations, The Cornish Shrimpers and Crabbers (didn't get a ride though) and the were nicely laid out for Two to cruise.

From John R Smith's bit of the world.....

This one is strip planked. http://www.golantgaffer.co.uk/images/GOLANT1.JPG

http://www.golantgaffer.co.uk/
Specification

Length over deck 18'9" 5.71M

Length Waterline 17'9" 5.41M

Beam 7 '0" 2.13M

Draught 2'9" 0.83M

Displacement 3300lbs 1497kg

Ballast Ratio 45%

Total Sail Area 265 sq ft 24.61sq m

[Wayne Jeffers]

You fellas are trying to make me move to deep water, aren't you? Taunting me with all these nice boats that draw too much water!

Lots of nice designs, but too few that are fully trailerable, as I see it. (I don't count something that I can launch in the Spring and take out to haul home in the Fall.) If it doesn't have truly shallow draft, it's too difficult to launch with every sailing, at least around here.

I've been looking and studying, though.

If you haven't done so already, you should look at the Blue Lightning site that Jan posted. http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ That is truly an impressive, remarkable boat, if it lives up to its specs. :cool: Only two drawbacks, IMO. It has a very modern look, but I prefer something more traditional. (Michelle, however, likes its looks.) And it has a heavy (150kg) ballast keel. But at least it's cast lead mated to wood, not machined from steel. They use a very interesting combination of cedar strip and ply construction in the hull planking. And they claim they've registered 20 kts on the GPS on a reach! <Sigh!>

Does anyone know Eun Na Mara's displacement? I have the WB review in issue 148, but it doesn't give that info. I think glued lap ply is usually pretty light and I like the bilgeboards. The only unflattering thing I can say about it is the estimate of 3000 hours to build, which I saw somewhere. :eek: Any experience to share on building time? Does that seem about right?

Wayne

[Bruce Taylor]

Eun Mara draws 3' 3" and displaces 2310 lbs. Duckflat (and presumably Iain O.) estimates 1000 hrs to build her.

Other specs at:

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/dfwbphp/boatPAGE.php?type=spec&ID=1033

[ 08-02-2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

Thanks, Bruce.

Another gorgeous design that's not easily trailerable. :(

I searched all over the internet for info on this design and I'm sure I saw 3000 hours somewhere. Can't remember where. Building time of 1000 hours is really good for a boat this size, this nice.

Wayne

[ 08-02-2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Jeffers ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Trailer weight is 1496 lbs, Wayne. What's not to like about that?

Funny thing is, I'd remembered 3000 hrs for Eun Mara, too. I have the catalogue around somewhere. I'll see what it says.

[ 08-02-2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Steve Paskey]

I've seen it suggested (on more than one occasion) that the "estimates" of building time in Ian's catalog are way too low, and that the times should be doubled.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
Trailer weight is 1496 lbs, Wayne. What's not to like about that?I'm concerned about getting it to float off and on the trailer. If it draws 3' 3", I'd have to unhook the trailer from my truck to get it deep enough to launch and retrieve. Some of the ramps around here are simply not long enough (deep enough) to get something like that off and on without special rigging.

Wayne

[Bruce Taylor]

I don't know whether that 3' 3" figure is with bilgeboards up or down. It's probably worth finding out.

I believe this one (Adagio) was built by forumite-gone-AWOL Paul Frederiksen:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/wilicyote/_uimages/adagio2.jpg

On his website, he says it takes 30 minutes "to rig up and be in the water."

More here (including Paul's e-mail address): http://pages.sbcglobal.net/wilicyote/index.html

[ 08-02-2002, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[garland reese]

Hey Wayne,

I have Iain's plans catalog. I can send you the write up for Eu Na Mara, if you wish. email me if you like. She has a weight spec. of 1500lbs. I'd bet that is her trailering weight and not a full displacement weight. It seems like some specs are for just the boat and others are for the boat's whole displacement weight to the waterline, loaded up and ready to sail (does that make any sense, or am I just loony?). She is one of my favorite designs. Have you contacted Paul Freidrickson (sp??). He was building one in CA and I'd bet is sailing her by now. There seems to be several who are either starting to build or thinking/scheming/dreaming about Eu Na Mara. Support in building might be good.

I am also getting to like Tony Dias' Buck alot. I like the catboat look, but don't really like that one huge sail, and the almost 50% beam to length ratio seems burdensome, and a true cat of any length will wind up not being trailer friendly. Buck is a 20 foot "catboat", but not really a catboat. She has a draft of 1'7" with the board up, has a displacement of 2,300 lbs and a beam of only 7'10" (under the trailerable max and very narrow by catboat standards). By the specs you can see that she is not proportioned much like a catboat and she has a "Noank" sloop rig (whatever that may be) instead of the one massive sail. But she's got the profile of a cat. She can also be rigged as a yawl (One of my early favorites is the glued lap chabacco.....small cuddy though). Sail handling should be easy as a yawl. She is said to sail to windward with as little as 2 feet of water under her (that would be cutting it close!!). The centerboard is below the floors and so doesn't invade the interior space. The only thing I don't think I really need is the expense of a diesel inboard........an outboard in a well would be a nice option. But then again, over the long run a diesel auxilliary would probably be the best. Build that little Wheelhouse and bolt it on for the winter season....
Strip Composite is more work, I think than glued-ply lapstrake, and probably more expensive. Mr. Dias seems very approachable, so builder support would seem to be available.
Buck has many of the attributes of Iain's double enders. I think that is why she appeals to me.
I had to really take a doubleshot at the Blue Lightning and her smaller sister. In the end though, I like the more traditional looks too (her turn of speed really turned my head though!!).

If I can manage to move up in size to around 20' or so as a buildable project, I'm liking the above two boats (plus way too many others...at 22' feet there are more still yet). I like William Garden's designs, but it would be nice to have the designer's input at times perhaps, and I don't know how approachable Mr. Garden is, nor how to get in touch w/him. His "Eel" still tugs at me and so does that 19' schooner up above a few responses. Dias has an 18' canoe yawl too, on the smaller end of things and right there with the Eel for me.

It sounds like the Eu Na Mara has your attention......
Garland

[Alan D. Hyde]

Two things, Wayne.

The Blue Lightning* site is very interesting; I assume the foredeck anchor well is adequately scuppered, and so is not a safety problem, but I'd like to see side decks with room for the width of my foot between the cabinhouse and toerail (and it doesn't look to me like she even HAS a toerail). This is fairly picky, though, and could be dealt with.

The other thing is, I would INSIST on sitting headroom below. Measure what this really is for you, and for those who will likely sail with you, and don't consider cruising in a boat that doesn't have it.

Alan

* If I we're going to build her, I'd first jump across the pond (~$200 rt out of Boston) and have a sail in her with the designer...

[ 08-02-2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[garland reese]

well, whilst I sat here and pecked out that long-winded reply of mine, out jumps pics of Pauls
be-u-t-ful EuNaMara.
That is the one I was talking about! I hadn't been to duckflats in a while.......musta posted those recenlty???? Thank you, Bruce!

[ishmael]

Wayne,
Re Bruce's post, it has to be with the boards down, eh?

Just one question. What are you going to use the boat for? Really use it for?

Anything this small, 'cept perhaps of a 'traditional' catboat, which is going to be too wide for trailering, is going to have minimal cabin accomadation. You asked after a built in galley and head, and if you go this way(small cabin boat, under 2,000 lb. including the trailer) I would think a porta-potti/bucket, and a portable galley box-- which could be used either in the cabin or the cockpit--would be in order.

But what are you likely to actually use this boat for? I know it's fun to imagine a cruise with the wife or girlfriend(praise God never the twain shall meet!)...and have after it, but if it is likely to be used mostly for daysailing with friends and family, any cabin on a boat this size makes for a small cockpit, where most of the living is going to happen.

I'd consider an open boat, maybe one of the Core Sound designs. Cockpit tents and dodgers are much cheaper and easier than trunk cabins.

Just some thoughts. So many, and who am I to say?

Best,

Jack

[ 08-02-2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[garland reese]

Hi Wayne,

I checked the catalog. Eu Na Mara weighs 1,500 lbs and displacement weight is 2,300 lbs. She has a draft of 1'5" and 3'4". Here beam is 6'8". It is said to have "absolute minimum headroom" below. I'm not sure what that measurement would be though. The commentary just says that "it is enough". Cockpit holds 4 comfortabley and 6 "cosily". Ceter board cases form the front of the seat/berths. Ballast is 500 lbs in the keel and steel bilgeboards.
She seems to fit the requirements of a trailer sailer very nicely, and she has been built in glued lap ply and cold molding for sure and could be strip built. Her ends are quite full. She looks to be wonderful to me. A favorite, for sure.
Garland

[Wayne Jeffers]

Yeah, guys, false alarm. I checked the review of Eun Na Mara in WB 148 when I got home. As Ishmael so prudently questioned, and as Garland already noted, the 3' 3" draft is with the boards down. Looks like about 17" with the boards up. She's definitely trailerable. She's back on my short list.

The comment about "absolute minimum headroom" is a concern. I'm 5' 10" and Michelle is 5' 11" and we're both fifty-ish. We couldn't stand to be too cramped, like we could have in our youth. I figure we need at least 40" above a raised berth and more would be better. Anyone know how much headroom she has?

Ishmael -- Good questions! From where we're at, it's a long drive (min. 1-1/2 hours each way) to proper sailing water. Almost four to Lake Erie. Most of our trips will probably be overnight or longer, so we think having modest accommodations on board makes sense for us. It will be unusual that we have guests, so I figure daysailing capacity for four is adequate. Michelle really likes sailing, so I'm sure it will almost always be the two of us, although I am likely to retire several years before her and could possibly have occasion to take the boat out alone.

I didn't mean to imply a requirement for built-in galley and head. Porta-potti/bucket and portable cookstove would be acceptable. (I told Michelle about L. Francis Herreshoff's thoughts on cedar buckets. While she didn’t reject the notion, I was informed that emptying said bucket would be my job.) The accommodations on the Chebacco I mentioned are pretty Spartan.

One inflexible accommodation requirement: Sleeping bags on the cockpit sole is not an option. Michelle has had back surgery twice and needs a proper berth for that reason. I suspect we both need proper berths because we're just not as young as we once were. I would be willing to consider something with a dodger, so long as it provided for proper berths. I require berths; I assumed that meant cabin, too.

My ~ 2000-pound limit doesn't include the trailer. Figuring a trailer is maybe 300 pounds or more, including the trailer that would really place a strict limit on the boat's weight. I figure 2000 pounds and not much over for the boat and the gear and stores for a weekend outing that will be on-board when she is launched. I have a 3/4-ton GMC Sierra so I can pull almost anything. I'm thinking light weight and shallow draft for ease of launching and retrieving from a trailer.

Alan -- I already thought of the scuppers for the anchor well. I wonder, too, if I wouldn't like an ordinary chain locker with a cover better in this circumstance. Have the dirty thing out of sight and keep the lines of the boat cleaner, too.

I wonder if access to the foredeck through the hatch is adequate? I hadn't thought of walk space, nor had I noticed the absence of a toerail. Good observation.

Good sitting headroom is definitely on my list of things to check before settling on a plan. I noted that this information is not given for Blue Lightning or her sisters.

Steve -- I had not considered St. Valerie, but I looked up WB 157 and I'll give it a read later. Thanks!

Dingo --

sigh oh dear and now weve gone and added more confusion to an already befuddled mind Are you referring to yours or mine? tongue.gif

Wayne

[imported_Sandman]

Wayne,
Have you visited the Chebacco News site that Richard Spelling has inherited from Bill Samson? Richard has Built and launched a Chebacco Light Cruiser with minor changes to the plans. One "C boat" that I know of has been built strip-planked and that boat is pictured in a recent piece Fraser Howell did for the letter concerning his new Sailrite mainsail.The House on the Chebacco was designed to be an easy add-on to previously built Chebaccos, but could be taylored to a new construction with changes to suit the builder.

That said, I plan to strip-build a CLC. I chose CLC because the plans show fairly easy construction details for the cockpit, deck and house assembly using plywood, that look strong and long-lasting.After seeing the original Chebacco years ago in Small Boat Journal the ply-hulled version just will not do,but a lot of people are happy building and sailing them.I plan to make my CLC look as much like an ancester of the original as possible. By the way, a fellow named George Cobb has a lap-ply "Gold Plater" for sale in Chebacco News. The pics are worth a gander because of his 1st class work and finishing.... :D (pure boat porn).

[Wild Dingo]

Of course I meant OURS Wayne! :D

Now have you had a gander at the Norwalk Island Sharpie?? Duckflats mate duckflats... and look at the price!... for you fellas cheep as chips!... mind you for us fellas cheep as chips too!... from 18ft to 31ft!!... that 26 has a mass of room inside mate... huge!! check out Norwalk Island Sharpie Builders site (http://guardian.curtin.edu.au/klaus/) so my guess would be that the 23 would be just as roomy :cool: Actually Im quite taken with this design now Ive taken some time to have a real gander instead of just goin "sigh yeah right another for the favorite list" she is pretty neat!

Eun Maru is like her big sister... one of those way up there in the selection stakes!! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[Don Maurer]

Eun Na Mara has a special trailer design included with the design. The trailer is essentially a flat bed with a trolly. The flatbed never enters the water. the boat sits on the trolly and winched down the ramp or beach into the water. It has large tires that just float the trolley when empty. Once the boat is afloat, the trolley is pulled out from under the boat. To recover the boat, the trolley is again winched into the water and floated under the boat. The positive flotation keeps it in place as it is winched back onto the flatbed. Sounds like a pretty slick system. Watercraft # 15 had a good article on cruising and trailering it.

[garland reese]

Matt M,

I cannot find any information regard interior layout of Romilly,. Watercraft did a multi issue building article on Romilly. I have some but not all issues. The ones that I do have don't have any commentary on the interior of Romilly. The strip verison has a trailing weight of 2,866 lbs and 1'8" draft, board up.

Wayne,
Watercraft also did a multi issue on EuNaMara. the articles in the issues I have don't mention anything about headroom and layout of the cabin interior. Iain does not give any headroom measurements in his comments on the design(I don't always find Watercraft at the bookstore, so my issues are sort of "hit and miss"). She looks to have spartan accommodations, but comparable to most others of her size and specs. With such shallow draft, nice headroom is hard to get and still keep the cabin form looking to high.

The 19' Cape Cutter from Dudley Dix looks to have a good interior layout, and again "sitting headroom". There are now plywood plans for this boat. She has a nice look about her. She draws but 1'6" board up. Displacement is shown to be 2,425 lbs. She has a double berth forward and quarter berths aft, which also serve as settees.

A cruising Chebacco would be a thought as well. There's a lot of glass though and that might get a bit like an ant under a magnifying glass in the heat of summer. I'd love to see the one that was just launched........she is just a couple hours away from me. I like the glued lap plywood version of this boat. There is also a larger 25' motor sailing version of this boat that is cool. The cuddy cabin would still be tight in the area of the vee berth though and the centerboard case pretty much separates the cabin right down the middle.

"Buck" from Tony Dias has much that appeals to me because I think she does a nice compromise between trailerability and fair accommodations. A real accommodating cabin is tough in small shallow draft boats. Buck is supposed to have sitting headroom below and a 7' vee berth forward that can be made into a 6' wide double by lowering the drop-leaf table.
to quote Dias: "There is sitting headroom below with a roomy vee-berth seven feet long. The drop leaf table can be lowered to fill in the berth to a double six feet wide! The counter spaces can accommodate a "Dutch Galley" or a woodstove on one side and a chart table opposite. A portable toilet stows under the bridge deck and can be used below or in the cockpit".

We probably won't spend a lot of time in the cabin in reality, but on the occassion that we do, it would be nice to have a bit of room. And it makes a nice place to get out of the sun for the kids or for my mom should I ever get her aboard. If we trailer to some of the larger Oklahoma lakes, we'd need to stay the night or prepare for a long day. During mild weather months, an overnighter would be pleasant. A cockpit tent would look to make her a comfy camp cruiser for a small family. I bet she would not be the cheapest to get all built though. I'm beginning to like the Buck more and more, If I can swing her size with my budget.
Garland

[ 08-03-2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

Steve -- The WB article on St. Valerie was very interesting. Has a lot of good information on qualities of shoal draft cruisers, some of which I will keep in mind as I search for my perfect design. My sense is that this design is a little too big for my purposes. In all, I'm a great admirer of Bolger and his designs.

Woody -- Yes, I've seen the Chebacco site. I wish more information on the design were available on the Internet. It appears that the revised house has lots of headroom, although I have mixed feelings on its appearance. Do you know if the revised cruising version has raised berths? Most of what I know about the design I learned from the article in WB 107. Strip plank sounds like a good idea, built to the lines/offsets from the lap-ply version. Have you purchased the plans already?

Shane -- I wish more information on the NIS were easily available through the Internet. They look interesting from what little I can find. The NIS23 weighs 1900 lbs. on a trailer and only draws 7" with board up. NIS18 is 1450 lbs. and 8". I can't find anything about headroom in the cabin. Perhaps it would be worth my trouble to send for a NIS catalog, although sharpies are traditionally flat-bottomed which I prefer to avoid.

Don -- That special trailer for Eun Na Mara sounds like a lot of extra trouble. If she draws only 1' 6", simply floating her off the trailer should not be too troublesome. I wonder if there's something I'm missing here?

Garland -- I'm not sure why designers don't give basic information like cabin headroom in the on-line offerings of their plans. I'm hoping Ken McClure will check in sometime. (I haven't seen him post in a while.) I believe he's building an Eun Na Mara. If all else fails, I may e-mail him. He lives in Pittsburgh, so I could even stop in for a look-see (Michelle's family still lives in Pittsburgh, so we're there occasionally.)

The Dix 19' cutter has a nice layout. The 2400 lb. displacement is a bit more than I would like, but that may be the fiberglass version, rather than the wooden version.

Buck looks like the berths are on the cabin sole? It's hard to tell from the drawing, but that's the way it looks. Anyone have experience with this design?

The matter of selecting a boat design is a lot like seeing a woman or hearing a piece of music for the first time: A design either moves you or it doesn't and sometimes there's no explaining the reasons why. ;) :D

Thanks everyone for the input!

Wayne

[Wiley Baggins]

I cannot find any information regard interior layout of Romilly,. Watercraft did a multi issue building article on Romilly. I have some but not all issues. The ones that I do have don't have any commentary on the interior of Romilly.

-garland reesegarland and MattM,

Although there is very little (no arrangement)on Romilly's interior in Boat Design Quarterly (BDQ) No. 22 I scaled (roughly) the cabin in comparison to Gartside's 22' sloop (above, and in BDQ No. 17). Romilly is definitely in the mold of a big daysailer compared to the Gartside boat. The cabin length of Romilly is about 6'11" while the Gartside boat looks to go about 10'8". Max headroom in Romilly looks to be less than 3' and max breadth tapers from a bit over 5' down to very little. Hope this helps.

[ 08-04-2002, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Wiley Baggins ]

[garland reese]

Wayne,
Yes Buck does appear to have the vee-berth on the sole. I don't know though, because Tony mentions that the table can be lowered to make a 6 foot wide double berth. It would seem the berth must be raised if this is the case..........I'm wondering just like you are. I sent an email to Mr. Dias. I will let you know if I get a response. I also inquired about headroom and the weight of the boat for trailering. The 2,347 shows to be displacement.
Garland

[Wayne Jeffers]

Thanks, Garland.

We're leaving in the morning and will be out of town for a few days. I'll check back here when we return.

Wayne

[Bruce Taylor]

I seem to remember that Chebacco's sleeping accomodations were pretty minimal (huge cockpit, cramped cabin w/ sleeping bags on the floor). But I gather there are various versions of this vessel afloat.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Yes, Bruce, there are various versions. Originally cold-molded, then a sheet ply version, then lap ply, all a little different, but all with only minimal accomodations as you describe. Later, Bolger drew a roomier cabin, but I've not heard whether the accomodations inside the cabin were "enhanced."

The cold-molded and lap-ply Chebaccos are pretty boats and weigh only about 1000 pounds. Has a lot of potential, if only details of a nice cabin were included.

Wayne

[Dan Cavins]

Hey Wayne, try this: http.//www.norwalkislandssharpie.org
I'm building the NIS 23' and hope to launch early next summer. Like Dingo I just liked the lines and it fits the bill for weight, room, trailering and ease of building (if there is such a thing). As for headroom, hey it's a sharpie. And are we living on the things? I'm building mine with the understanding that we'll spend 98% of our time outside anyway. The 23' has a good size cockpit. I'm no old time boat builder but am still doing ok I believe after about 1500 hrs. Could build a second one much faster but... Anyhow, I'm likin' it! Let me know if you've got questions. Choices, choices. Dan.

[garland reese]

Wayne,
This is an appealing version of Chebacco. It would seem to have lots of room for a 20 footer. Lots of glass in the cabin too, which may have its goods and bads........ here's a quote from Chaebacco News #17. There is a nice picture in the newsletter as well. Issue # 25 has more on her with some more pictures. Bolger's comments stated that he thought this to be a much better confguration than the the CLC version, if you want good space. Below are some quotes form the text:

"Congratulations to Bob Cushing for building and launching the
first example of the Chebacco Motorsailer - the 'Glasshouse' version referred to in Phil Bolger's book
'Boats with an Open Mind'. This version has a fixed ballast keel and no centreboard. The tiller is
positioned to allow the boat to be helmed from within the spacious cabin. Bob writes:
We have sailed the Chebacco Motorsailer 3 times now and finally had some good wind on our last sail. With winds of about 20-25 kts and 2-4 ft waves on Seneca Lake in upstate New York we sailed
downwind for about 15 miles. We had both reefs in as we were not sure of how wild it would get but as it turned out it was quite docile running downwind in these conditions - one reef would probably have been adequate. Speeds were in the 5-6 kt range as measured by the GPS. Speed under power with the 9.9 Honda have been measured by the GPS to be 7.0-7.5 kts max and 5.5 kts a more reasonable (i.e. quiet and comfortable) speed under power. The boat is very comfortable with 7 foot berths, a dinette table to port, which can pivot to center, a kitchen area up front with sink, stove, cooler, food storage and 6 gallon water tank. There is a lot of storage space under the bunks and throughout the rear of the boat under the decks. A porta-john with pump-out capability is kept under the step, along with the toolbox. A small built-in fuel tank is behind
this. Tinted Lexan windows were used throughout. The front-center opens and four Beckson round
ventilation ports w/screens elsewhere. Trailing and launching is quite easy from a standard bunk-type boat trailer. Setup time is about 20 minutes - Take down and pack up about 30. This will be shortened by some 5 - 10 minutes with some simplification of procedures and fasteners.

and from issue # 25:
"Plenty of room for two in the cockpit area - could actually seat four but would be quite tail-heavy then. As you can see from the pics I've added a steering wheel and remote motor-control assembly on the starboard sude of the entryway to the cabin. It looks kinda odd but works great. You just pin the tiller in center position with a U-bolt when you want to use the steering wheel under power. Docking - especially backing up, is much better this way - just like a very nimble powerboat. Of course you can also use the tiller/rudder under power if desired. Wheel and throttle-shift are quick-release. Unscrew a
coupla knobs and both have a second mounting position inside for power operation in really inclement weather. There's a vent cover/gas fill/pump out fitting in the cockpit. It's hinged and swings up to reveal a 25 gal fuel tank. Also under here is a pump-out fitting for a Porta John which meets Canadian regs.
The interior shot shows the dinette table, access to loads of storage under the cockpit, under all bunks, john and toolbox are under the step, stove, sink, watertank and cooler all go up front ahead of the bunks.
The main hatch was enlarged to twice normal size so you can open over half of the interior for full
standing room. There's also a small lift-out hatch over the galley area and the front window swings open. All windows are tinted lexan and curved as are the sides of the house - very strong - with 1" perimeter with many screws. There's lots of foam floatation in front, under the outer bunks and in back under th rearmost storage areas. A large hole in the bottom would probably result in only about one foot of water in the hull".

They have archived all newsletters in pdf for download. There are some nice pics. Jim Slakov's lapstrake is a beaut (regular chebacco)!
Anyways...........there's the glasshouse version in a nutshell
Garland

[Meerkat]

Headroom: I'm 5'10" and am also concerned about headroom. I took the simple expedient of sitting on the floor bolt upright against a wall, marked and measured. Came out to 44". That's going to be generous since people/me don't sit bolt upright. On the other hand, I want a little clearance so as to avoid hair oil on the overhead ;).

Nobody has yet mentioned Selway-Fisher. He has a number of designs that use a centerboard that's below the cabin sole and with a heel (?) that slips up into a small trunk under the bridge deck with the board pendant and attendant opening out in the cockpit where splashes won't wet bedding etc. The centerboard ends up being 'L' shaped with the foot of the 'L' in the trunk. Downside is a 14" draught with the board up (not much of a downside imo). Not as easy as a flat bottom to trailor but not nearly as hard as a keelboat.

Have a look at http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm at the "Sandgrouse 16"

Paul Fisher is an extremely nice guy to work with and it's very hard to beat his prices, even for custom alterations (he's "reshaping the hull" etc. to give me the headroom I want for an extra $60).

I expect to end up with something like this (from the bow):

6'6" berth 48" wide at the head. "Hands and knees" headroom over head area, possibly even the full 44" at the very head. Foredeck well for anchor gear above foot of berth (in the bow).

5' sitting area opposite a galley flat (counter). Full seated headroom - sitting tailor fashion. Curvature of overhead taken into account (headroom is usually specified to advantage - at the centerline of the boat and it's less at the outboard edges). Galley flat is big enough to take a built in 2 burner stove (possibly with broiler). (Possibly make allowance for footwell extending aft so that the "settee" can be used for a 3rd "once in a blue moon" guest, or if need to be sleeping closer to the tiller. (Note: the seat is going to be almost at sole level to give max headroom and thus little footroom, but with 6'6" beam, I anticipate enough room to stretch out legs.)

4' cockpit. "Sorry, only room for two - the cockpit is too small to sleep in" ;). Seriously, here in the Pacific Northwet, one is not going to be lolling about the cockpit much unless one likes getting rained on. I also don't get that excited about sun bathing or laying down while outside - I want to be sitting up and looking about. Besides, small cockpits are safer generally speaking.

1' lazarette. Gives a bit of structure so that one is not quite so close to the water as it where and also provides room for a tiny commercially available gas tight locker and bottle for the stove. Where the poti vent lives too (see below) :)

The porta-poti slips into a little locker under the bridgedeck and is intended to be pulled out into the main cabin so that one can sit on it with one's head in the companionway (curtain for modesty). The poti locker is going to have a solar vent sucking air out of it and mounted on the stern so that odors etc. are pulled from the cabin, through the locker and thence overboard.

Jury is still out on the outboard well. The Sandgrouse has a well, but i'm not convinced I want a motor at all - yawls sail backwards :)

I want to slip all this into 16', but I suspect it's going to be closer to 17+' (I need a _little_ footroom, especially if there's a guest. 6'6" beam. Approx weight: 1200#

[ 08-09-2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: meerkat ]

[capt jake]

I only breifly skimmed the messages here. Have you considered the Princess? Princess (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess.htm) She's a beauty! Easy to rig and get ready for sail. I have the plans and they are very straight forward (yet to build, darn it!). Cat ketch rig, check it out. The designer can help walk you through any questions.

[garland reese]

Hi Meerkat,

I like the Selway Fisher designs too. I guess I did not consider the smaller designs.......I was thinking of only those above 20', as I wondered about the roominess of smaller boats, especially headroom. The trouble with alot of the over 20 footers at Selway Fisher is the weight; quite a bit in excess of Wayne's target of around 2000lbs. One that I like alot (one of those on my short list) and it just might work for Wayne, is the Kari double ender. She is 19'9" with a beam of 6'6" and a wieght of 1265lbs (I thought she was >2000lbs!!). Draft is considerbly less than 2feet, board up. She was designed for someone who wanted a boat that could take a small cabin with berths for 2 or 3, a small galley and a wc. She is gunter rigged 176 sq ft, I think. The really nice thing is that he will gladly make modification for building mehtods.....i.e., he can make the patterns for strip sheathed, plywood lapstrake etc. I corresponded with Mr. Fisher regarding the Ptarmigan 17' very early in my search for small trailer sailers, and he is very accommodating and very nice. Thanks for pointing him out here..........in reviewing Kari, she really is a strong consideration for the requirments. Let us know more about how your final design turns out. It sounds like things are working out nicely for you. Are you having the design lengthened? She sounds like she is going to work out to be a fine little boat!

I emailed Tony Dias regarding the Buck. No reply.

I also asked some questions regarding Romilly's interior. Her accommodations are sparce and there is not much detail of her interior in the plans.........she is in the spirit of a camp cruiser.

Garland

[ 08-10-2002, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[bainbridgeisland]

I do not think most designers even try for 40" to 44" headroom on small cruisers. Are you guys sure that is how much you need to keep from bumping your heads when sitting? I am 6'-1" and my hair just brushes 37" when sitting bolt upright on a hard seat. I once had a commission to design a boat for a 6'7" person who needed 39" headroom. Looking at my Human Factor Design Handbook, engineering book, 95 percentile sitting height is 38". Now some of you may exceed this by a bit but 44" is not likely.

Most designers use 36" to 39" for comfortable sitting headroom. I would expect the small boats we are discussing to tend towards 36".

Is the reason you want the extra headroom for a more spacious feeling? If so, other ways are available that will not add as much weight or hurt performance as much. Placing the correct size port at just the right height is one way. Dramatically inclining the seat back, so when relaxing, you have lots of headroom also works. Painting the underside of the deck with a light color gives a lighter airier feeling. You get the idea...

[Meerkat]

Garland: Funny you should mention the Kari 3! I've been considering her too. I really like double enders. One reason for looking at a 16' LOA boat is that in the state of Washington, a 16' boat without an engine is exempt from licensing. Since I don't think I can realistically do that, I'm looking at a slightly larger boat.

Bainbridge: Thanks for the input about seating height. I know my 44" is a bit high, but it was done as described in my previous post and makes sense to me. I have been aboard some boats that claim "sitting headroom", and it is sitting headroom - if you provide a nice cushion on your shoulder to lay your head on, or don't mind digging your chin into your breastbone. The Westwight Potter was particularly "amusing" in this regard. As for the differing needs of taller vs. shorter people, we don't all bend in the same place: some are "short waisted" and others "long waisted". smile.gif

Sam Devlin offers plans for a 18' (20'?) sloop called the Artic Tern. I was aboard one (Devlin's personal boat at the time - at a show), and she had very generous headroom (and a woodburning stove!). T'would be nice to know what her headroom measurement was.

[htom]

My sitting height is real close to 39.75", barefoot I'm 6'4" with a 32" inseam. I'm out past the 99%ile, I know. Maybe past the 99.9% of back length. Buying a car that I don't hit my head in is hard, and trying them on is painful.

In the bizzaro world of government statistics, the seating heights of 5%, 50%, and 95% males are 33.7", 36", and 38.3", while their eye heights are 29.3", 31.7", and 38.0"; differences from their eyes to the tops of their skulls being 4.4", 4.3", and 0.3" ! While I'll admit to being a bit of a low-brow about some things, it's not THAT low.

[Wayne Jeffers]

I can see that during my absence of several days from Internet access you fellows have come up with some additional ideas worth checking out. Thanks!

I occurs to me that the thing that I should do is make up a chart with all the characteristics that are important to me on one axis, and the boat designs I'm considering on the other axis. Then I can fill in blocks where these intersect with the relevant info for each design. The result will be a comprehensive comparison to ensure I've given every design a thorough look.

Garland -- I had missed that big-cabin version of Chebacco. Thanks for pointing it out. I wish there was more information available on the Internet for this design. Does anyone know a good way to get more information, other than by writing to Mr. Bolger? I haven't seen any sketches of interior layout, etc. From what little I've seen the design is appealing.

Meercat -- I'll check out the Selway-Fisher designs. Yours sounds like a lot of boat in 16 or 17 feet. I would include the outboard well, for sure, as I want backup in case the wind dies. (I don't mind rowing, but I'm not sure how much I would want to depend on rowing for a boat this size and weight.)

Capt. Jake -- At first glance, the numbers for Princess look good. I'll have to find out if they offer study plans.

Dan -- I hadn't given the NIS much consideration because the Internet site I found for it had so little information. I'll give it a closer look. Being a sharpie, I would expect it to probably have a flat bottom, which is not my first choice. Don't be surprised if I have questions. ;)

Bainbridgeisland -- Your comments have prompted me to be more scientific. Sitting bolt upright against a porch post and using a framing square to mark the precise level of the top of my head, I come up with 37 1/4 inches. (FWIW, I'm 5' 10".) My original rough estimate of 38 inches was not far off the mark; I'll forget about trying for a couple of extra inches for clearance. I'll also consider your idea of inclining the seat as an alternative. (I do that in Michelle's Maxima so my head doesn't bump the roof!) Thanks! If I like a design that is close to 37+ inches, I'll certainly inquire of the designer as to increasing the height of the cabin sides or other alternatives, rather than reject a plan for this reason. If, however, a plan has 31-inch headroom, I think I should look elsewhere.

Again, thanks all!

Wayne

[garland reese]

Wayne,

Bob Cushing of Cazenovia NY built the glass house version and it was a feature in the Chebacco news. It was possibly for sale in late '99..........Bob like to build boats and he does it quite quickly........ He built a Bolger Micro Trawler prior to Chebacco (among other designs) and he had his eye on another project, so he was willing to sell the Chebacco if someone was interested enough......
You might try getting in touch with him. the last email address I had was rcushing@cvsi.com

Apparently the interior is not laid out in detail. I think there is lots of room to do your own thing. There is a picture of his wife sitting at the swiveling table just inside the cabin with a host of air space between her head and the cabin top. the berths are built up, near as I can tell....... the galley is forward, I believe. This could all be changed fairly easily though, as I got the impression that the interior is not set in stone. Bob had lots of neat ideas and conveniences on his boat.
Anyway it may be worth the time, if you can reach Mr. Cushing, to ask him about the design.

I can't seem to find out much about Buck. Mr. Dias' catalog is out of print and I haven't gotten a response from him. I asked about the berth height and headroom measurements......maybe I'll get something soon.

The 20 foot Kari from Selway Fisher has lots of appeal, since she seems to have fair accommodations and Paul can work with you to easily adapt her to your preferred construction methods and he seems very willing to work with modifications in the layout, etc....... Her weight is appealing to me as she seems pretty light for her size. Most of the other 20 plus footers he has are fairly heavily ballasted and are > 2000lbs. I've got a real soft spot for the double ended designs.......especially if yawl rigged (hmmn...I wonder if Paul could make her a yawl???).
Well, the search goes on............
Garland
Garland

[Alan D. Hyde]

Wayne, remember how much a boat can move when underway in rough water.

It's really irritating to be biting into your egg sandwich when the boat lurches and cracks your skull against the overhead.

I'd say a few inches of clearance on sitting headroom makes a lot of sense. Depending on the hull form, you may be able to move the berth a little lower instead of raising the coach roof. Sometimes if you can lower the cabin sole a little at the same time, you're no worse off comfort-wise, and you make better use of space.

You'll want lots of good hand-holds anyway...

Alan

[ 08-12-2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[John Bell]

Regarding the Chebacco Light Cruiser, the latest modification of the Bolger's redoubtable cat yawl, you can find a very complete description of the design and its rationale at http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/chebac18.htm written by PCB hisself.

Richard Spelling in Oklahoma has recently launched the first boat built to these plans.

JB

[Wm. E. Parker]

On steel centerboards...
I have established a relationship with a local foundry, and asked for a price for a cast steel board if I were to provide the mold. The idea here is to be able to use an advanced NACA profile on the board, even though the design is traditional. I changed the profile for the centerboard on my current boat, which just had a round front edge and a short taper on the back, and the difference in upwind performance has been striking. Traditionally, such "niceties" have been dismissed as unnecessary of you aren't racing. I don't race now, but really appreciate the ability to skirt a point or make a harbor where I wouldn't have before. Anyway, I'll post the price when I get it. It could be it will be prohibitive, but I don't think so. The time in casting is always in the mold making.

[dale o]

Whoa, cast steel! That's interesting. For the money it may be cheaper to by a cold rolled plate, have it plasma cut to shape then milled in a milling machine to the profile you want and then hot dipped galvanized. Not conventional. Just an idea. Best wishes.

[Tomcat]

Here are a couple of thoughts.

What is the budget? Time and dollars to build, and cost if any of upgrading tractor system to trailer this boat..

What kind of trailerability are you looking for?

Category 1: Easily moved once a year to the yacht club or mooring.

Category 2: Easily trailered long distances, but not so easy to launch: Suitable for one big push in a new area per vacation, but not suitable for sailing off the trailer on a regular basis.

Category 3: Launches like a bass boat, ready to sail as fast as a slip stored yacht, due to superior consideration given to systems. (Doesn't have 1000# pound of lead in the "barrel" pointing at the back of your head during transport if it's my boat).

Category 4: All of the above, and beats most other boats in sailing performance regardless of the type of water.

As to shoal draft, one could create a similar matrix:

Category one: Does not sustain damage when running aground, due to kick-ups or sturdy grounding keel.

Category two: sails in skinny water, but the foils are significantly degrade as shallowness pushes them up.

Category three: Sailing performance is a combination of hull and foil based lateral resistance sufficient to provide good performance and control even as the foils are pushed up (obviously some shoal waters are too dangerous for this to be a useful attribute in all cases).

Category four: All of the above on the positive, and performance in all water types that is equal or superior to most boats.

I'd like to know where we're at in all the above three areas: Budget, trailerability, shoal performance.

Obviously, when you combine both category fours with the accommodations you require the only answer is a multihull. In a low cost model, you would be hard put to get category 3 trailerability, unless you were willing to be scrunched into something like shellboats.com crab claw skiff, or a Jarcat.

There aren't any monohulls with category 4 shoal sailing ability. And with the collapse of sharpie stability assumptions I'm not sure where we are on a Category three shoal boat with descend non-shoal performance.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Tomcat,

Welcome to the Forum! Good questions and observations.

The budget should not be too much of an issue. I expect to spend $10K minimum on materials, perhaps much more depending upon how effective I can be at scrounging. (I'm part Scottish, BTW.) I have a HD 3/4-ton truck with a Class III hitch, so the "tractor" is taken care of already. Time: I hope to retire in a couple of years and this is my number one retirement project.

Trailerability – Somewhere between Category 2 and 3. I think being able to rig and launch within 30 minutes is a worthy goal. The mast(s) needs to be fairly easy to raise. My partner has had back surgery twice and for her, substantial lifting is too risky. She could help by pulling on a forestay, if necessary. You make a good point about the lead in the "barrel" for regular trailering; that's something I hadn't thought of. I'll try for lighter ballast. Thanks!

My main reason for wanting shoal draft is trailerability. The ramps around here appear to be designed for bass boats and are not very long or deep. Hoists are very rare. If she won't float in 2 feet, and I'll have problems getting her off the trailer. Most sailing waters in my area are artificial impoundments and are adequately deep, once I get off the trailer.

Wayne

[WWheeler]

Another criteria that I've thought of is the mast height -- or inclusion of a tabernacle for easy raise/lower capability.

Max headroom on the Trent-Severn Canal is 21', which precludes most sailboats, unless they make the trip with the whole shooting match lowered.

This criteria swould make an unstayed mast a requirement, wouldn't it? Gaff rig/standing lug is also an advantage. Something like Chebacco. Anyway, fooling around with tall masts, stays etc. is out of the question if you want to be away in less than an hour.

[stef]

I will add another boat to the discussion. www.bateau.com (http://www.bateau.com) has a trailer sail boat called the vagabond. Check it out.

Best regards

Stefan

[garland reese]

OK Wayne,

I have one here............it is not cold molded, but glued lap type, I presume with stringers, like John's other design's. It is quite salty looking, with a variety of rig options. I like the simplicity of Mr. Welsford's designs. They are a good compromise between classy good looks and being friendly to the novice builder. Penguin looks to be most everything that you want in a trailer sailer, 'cept for her intended constuction :confused:

Here are John's comments on the design...............
Penguin
LOA 6.4M 21FT
BEAM 2.24M 8FT
Weight 970kg dry
Ballast 450kg
Berths 4
Headroom 1.450m
SAIL AREA
Gaff Rig 21.8sqm
Bermuda 20.7sqm
Plans $160

"A four berth trailer yacht with character and comfort

I have only rarely been tempted to enter the design competitions run by magazines, of the two occasions I have gone to the trouble of producing the very detailed drawings that are required by the judges I have had a win and an honourable mention so am pretty much convinced that I should give up while I am ahead.

Penguin designed to fill a competition brief for a family oriented cruising trailer yacht of about 6 / 6.5m long, a boat that would be easily constructed by home boatbuilders from materials that would be readily obtainable and need only simple tools. I chose to present a boat with a traditional character and a real focus on comfort, a boat that would stand out from the many hard chine boxes that would make up the bulk of the competition entry.

Well, Penguin certainly did that, I understand that the judges panel were so split that some assistance was called for.

Penguin fitted the letter of the brief really well but did not fit the perceptions of two judges so in the end I got a special mention” . Penguin is based on both the construction method and the hull shape of her predecessors Rogue and Navigator and I have been very pleased with the boat that has resulted.

As a keen trailer yacht owner I had cruised much of New Zealand at 90 kmph my boat following along behind as we drove, boat already packed with stores and supplies, off to another distant lake or harbour.

Working from the bow aft, she has an anchor well for stowing wet and muddy ground tackle, a good sized foredeck and hatches large enough to provide both access and an airy feeling on hot days.

Her interior is both roomy and very comfortable. There is almost standing room in the main cabin and enough legroom to stretch out and relax. Thanks to an enquiry from Derek Bates, Penguin now has a third rig option in the form of a gaff yawl along with bilge keels and a smaller cockpit (bluewater). Details are included in all plans.

There is a big tabernacle so the mast can be easily raised or lowered, the gaff rig by the way has proven to be noticeably faster on all points of sail except "hard on the wind", and the rig is very strong so the boat will stand heavy weather when making coastal passages. I have drawn a self draining cockpit with space to sprawl out and relax, the motor is partly housed to avoid having to balance perilously over the transom in order to operate it and there are enough lockers for all of the odd bits that accumulate around the helm position. Her lead shoe underneath gives this boat a high ballast ratio and she will self right from a well past 90°, with the ballast fixed to the bottom of the boat the centreboard is not hard to lift, and the boats shoal draft ability will open up sheltered and picturesque anchorages that are not accessible to most deeper vessels.

Inside there has been a lot of consideration given to cruising amenities. Mind you there were a few differences of opinion here, my interior layout advisor ( I'm married to her) told me that a separate "loo" was a must, I'd have put a portapotty under the forward end of the cockpit and pulled it out when needed but have dutifully fitted a dedicated heads compartment complete with bookrack for the out of date magazines at the forward end of the main cabin.

Queen sized beds are not common in boats this small, but that's what you'll find up forward, with enough headroom to sit comfortably up in bed reading, access and ventilation out through the forward hatch and a huge amount of storage underneath the bed flat, in the main cabin there are two big quarter berths aft, good leg space and enough room to move about without banging heads.

I am pleased with the handiness of the galley, it has good space to prepare meals while not being in the way of others moving about the boat and again there is plenty of locker space.

Cruising in a small and comfortable boat like this can be a real pleasure, without the work and expense of a larger boat on a mooring or in a marina one can have the comfort and character of a true cruiser with the very long weekend range that a trailer boat can offer. Its a tempting package."

[Meerkat]

Garland:

Oooh. I have "Penguin" plans, and they're very nice, but <ahem> she does look a bit stout and I'm concerned about the c/b trunk in the cabin and how thin the bottom looks. If I do a Penguin, I'm going to talk John into an "under the sole" c/b trunk and some bilge space! I otherwise agree with you that she has a sterling layout!

If you have any pics of your boat on the water (haven't seen a Penguin on the water yet), I would really love to see them!

By any chance was your boat's construction shown in an article on Woodenboat.net.nz? If so, I snarfed the pics for repeated viewing smile.gif

Speaking of Mr. Welsford, I had a great chat on the phone with him last night - he's in town on business and for the Port Townsend (Washington, USA) Woodenboat Festival. I'm to have the priviledge of hanging out with him for the whole 3 days. There's also a meet (if you can call it that) of the PSEBS (Puget Sound Elbow Bending Society) in the beer tent on Saturday evening.

[ 09-04-2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: meerkat ]

[Meerkat]

(from Garland):
One that I like alot (one of those on my short list) and it just might work for Wayne, is the Kari double ender. Just had an email from Paul Fisher about Kari 3:
the OA height in the centre, sole to underside of cabin top is 48" - to the lower outside corner of the cabin top it is just
over 36" and the seat height from the sole is 5" to the top of the cushion which will ofcourse compress.

[ 09-04-2002, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: meerkat ]

[garland reese]

Hey Meerkat,
OOOPS!!, I wasn't very clear on the Penguin......haven't built one and don't own one. I just like the design and thought it would be a good one for Wayne to consider.
thank you very much for your assessment of the plans and layout. I see that John may soon have a new website. I hope so. He's seems like a very nice fellow and I like the philosophy of his designs. They seem very functional, both for use and for building. They look salty too. You are so lucky to get to hang out with Mr. Welsford! Tell him hello from Oklahoma, land of...., well, just land.

[ 09-04-2002, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[Meerkat]

Garland;

Web site under construction.

I'll be glad to say 'hi' for ya smile.gif

[garland reese]

Hey Meerkat,

I was racking my brain, trying to remember who was doing the website for John. It is YOU! :D :D Isn't it :confused: I remember reading that in a thread, but I guess I hadda bit of a "brain dump" (pretty common ocurrence with me). Will you be selling the book and design catalogue through the website?

Do you know how the longer version of the Navigator (with the cabin) is coming along? I also read some time back that there might be some details coming for a cabin on the 6M Whaler. Is that true, do you know? The Whaler is a very cool boat to me, 'specially if she had a cabin.! I wish I could be in PT with y'all. Hope you have a fine time, but watch out for the dreaded tennis elbow, what with all that elbow bending you'll be doing.

[ken mcclure]

A couple more Eun Mara pics to wet your whistle...

http://home.adelphia.net/~kwmcclure/images/3EUNMARA.jpg

[Wayne Jeffers]

Garland,

Thanks for pointing out Penguin. I had not seen it before and I like it. It's numbers are similar to the Hartley 21, which is one I had looked at but recently dropped from further consideration, but Penguin is a much nicer looking boat, with more headroom, etc. I like the gaff yawl rig, too.

I'm busier than that one-armed paper hanger right now, so I'll dig into this more later. I found the Duckworks site with information on ordering plans, but there's no mention of study plans being available. Does anyone know if study plans are available? Does Mr. Welsford have e-mail and will he answer questions from prospective purchasers of stock plans?

My biggest objection to plywood is that it figures to be a tougher job to plank the hull solo, as compared to strip or cold-molded. Getting help occasionally is not a problem, but I don't want to be dependent on finding a helper on a continuing basis when I'm planking the hull.

Wayne

[garland reese]

Hi Wayne,

you should get with Meerkat, as he will be hosting John in WA this weekend.

I think that this boat is contructed much the same as John's smaller designs. He uses stringers, let in to the bulkheads to give the plank shapes. This shouuld make things much easier to plank shorthanded. Meerkat mentioned that he has the plans. He could give you his impression of the design. There are some pictures of a Pneguin under construction on the woodenboat new zealand web page, which is back up now. There are also lots of good pictures of John's other boats. These should give you an idea of his design work. I think that he does not get all too detailed on some of the fit out of the interior and cockpit, as he allows that each individual may want something a bit different. He's seems to be a very cool fellow...........
I hope that he will eventually have a cabin for his Whaler design. She is size wise, compareable to Eu Na Mara, only at this time she is an open boat. There should be a website up for John soon, according to Meerkat (I think he is doing it for John!!).
Hope things settle down for you soon. We kinda busy 'round here too..........trying to get a new boathouse built for the rowing club and we've a regatta coming up on the 21st. My sailing dreams are getting a bit muttled by the fixing of unwooden rowing shells these days :rolleyes:

Will you be retiring soon?? I saw my former boss last week. He's lost 25lbs and seems happier than I ever saw him!

[Jonas]

Wayne, I'm building the Penguin. John designed it to be built, in a sense, from the inside out. The highly detailed plans call for the construction of the bulkheads, stem and transom, and centreboard trunk first. You set these up on the keel and bottom, which rest on a building frame with the correct rocker. Then you add stringers that will tie them all together, finally adding the planks, and finishing off with "filling in" the interior which is already defined by the work that you had done on the bulkheads. This sequence works for me, allowing me to build the components in my basement workshop before taking over the garage for the planking and overall assembly.

I've enjoyed the process so far. At times I have wondered about the strength of the boat, but once it's all together, it's strength comes in large part from the fact that it is a complex of interlocking components. Other builders have attested to the boat's rigidity and robustness.

It should be an easy boat to trailer and launch, small enough to fit in the garage, and big enough for a few days on the water.

[Meerkat]

Wayne; What's the latest news on your quest?

[ahp]

Someone, I haven't figured out who yet, just sent me an e-mail referenceing a website for designs. It is http://www.tantonyachts.com. I took a quick look. They have lots of drawings and photos, and designs for sale. Some are quite large and not trailerable, but some are.

Thank you, whoever

[Donn]

I got that email this morning also. Didn't recognize the sender, and figure it was just spam.

[Gordy]

Wayne,
I built a Core Sound 17 designed by Graham Byrnes and now am a complete convert to the cat-ketch rig.

The last time I was in North Carolina I had a chance to see the Princess Sharpie 22. Except for the fact that it might be too easy to construct, it might be just what you want.

Also, on the boards is a Princess Sharpie 26 that is also trailerable. All of Grahams designs are very well thought out and perform remarkably well. If you call you'll get Graham or Carla. Carla has sailed around the world (Graham has only sailed 3/4 of the way, starting in Australia)
Then he met Carla and is still in North Carolinia.

I thought I'd be clever and copy the whole page, but the pictures didn't come through. You'll have to go to the web site anyway.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princess.htm
B&B
Yacht Designs

Princess Sharpie 22

The Princess Sharpie 22 is an easy to build trailerable, beachable vessel that will happily take you and yours on social sails with several friends, a family weekend, a romantic vacation or a solitary adventure.

LOA..................22' 0"
LWL.................21' 2"

BEAM...............7'2"

DRAFT.............1'0"-4'0"

SAIL AREA .......210 sq. ft. working sail (stays'l optional)

BOAT WEIGHT...1100# - 1200# (ballast 300#)

DISPLACEMENT 1900 lbs @ DWL

Disp./L 87 -- SA/Disp 22 -- Cp .54 -- LCB .547 of WL aft -- .PPI 498#



The sharpie hull shape was chosen for it's good looks and performance. The long waterline gives a low displacement/length ratio of 87.

The V-bottom does add an extra step in the building (compared to a flat bottom), but, it improves the handling and performance many-fold. Because it is so much stronger, the "V" form allows the chine beam to be wider, hence you get increased stability. While the gentle lapping of waves against the hull may sound romantic, try sleeping with waves slapping under a flat bottom forward. It is very hard to make this boat pound.

The shallow keel protects the bottom, and gives enough lateral plane to be able to beat to windward in only 12" of water. The keel allows the CB to be smaller and less obtrusive in the interior. Offset to port and with half its length under the cockpit, it hardly interferes with the layout.

A nice departure from the traditional sharpie accommodations with the huge trunk bisecting the cabin. Additionally, the keel allows the lead ballast to be as low as possible, giving a greater range of stability for the same weight.

The basic hull construction, except for the keel batten is stitch and glue. Building requires no special skills or tools.


This design was originally done for Chick Ludwig, the owner of Princess Marine. Chick is an experienced sailor and wanted a light inexpensive boat that he could single hand for weekends and vaction with his wife, or take several friends or clients out for a daysail. It was imperative that he could lauch and retrieve the boat alone and with ease, and pull it with a normal full pick-up. A traditionalist at heart, Chick had previously owned a catboat, but wanted a boat that sailed well and was "less cranky", while still being able to take on the shallow waters of Coastal Carolina.


If you are not familiar with this rig, we suggest you go to Why a Cat Ketch?


Shown at the right: our no lofting building method: Two stages of the hull construction ... Top: The 3/8" ply pre-developed sides* (blue) are wrapped around the bulheads, temporary frame, transom (red), & stem.
Bottom: forward sections are diagonally planked with two layers of 1/4" plywood with staggered seams; while the rest of


the bottom is 1/2" sheet plywood.(green) This method allows the formation of the beautifully shaped sharpie bow while still being simple to construct. The stringers are shown in blue and keel batten in black.

*There is no lofting required, because we have done the work of developing the shapes. You just measure straight lines and connect the dots.






The interior is simple, clean, and open. It is a pleasant hide-away from the elements while sailing and has a galley and generous berths (6'6" & 7'9") for weekending and vacations. A porti-potti fits between the forward end of the berths. We suggest that young children will like camping on the sole, between the berths. The OB is located in it's own well, out of the way.

Below, Chick took about 7 1/2 minutes to rig the boat the first time, now he says it takes under 5minutes....single handed. The masts hinge in their tabernacles with the main mast hinging aft and the mizzen mast hinging forward.


More Pictures

Princess Sharpie 26

Home

Plan Price List

B & B Yacht Designs
E-mail: b&byat@cconnect.net
196 Elm St., PO Box 206
Vandemere, North Carolina 28587 - 0206 USA

[Venchka]

BUMP! :D For the Newbies.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Wild Dingo]

ah yes indeed a good thread mate!

Now interestingly I had an email from a fella the other day about St. Valery apparently he has the plans and is about to start building!! Wanted the info I had on her so I zapped a couple of emails with the attachments included and... sigh... nthing since

Im now down to 2 designs!!! HA!!! taken 3 years and a massive amount of confusion but Im gettin there... the two designs? Noyo Trawler from Glen L and St. Valery!

Why those two? trailerability, accomadations seem about right for a short wheel base like myself (5ft 5in and yes I am indeed shrinking! :eek: } length is about what I think I can easily manage without becoming bored witless... and individually?... well Noyo cause it would suit my fishin needs and the asthetic I like of old time fishin boats :cool: mind you do do fancy her with a nice stay sail on top of the cabin ;) bit redundant maybe but shite it would suit her I think tongue.gif ...And St. Valery? hell its a luggar!! do I need another reason?? :D :cool:

[ 11-05-2004, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Venchka]

Shane,

Have you contacted Richard Cullison about St. Valerie? The last time I spoke to Richard, he said he was going to build one for his personal use.

Just in case the Newbies don't know what Shane and I are talking about, this is St. Valerie by Bolger/Devlin.

http://www.devlinboat.com/usedbolger.jpg

She's a good un, mate! ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[landlocked sailor]

I saw Richard Cullison At the MASCF in October. He told me he was planning Karl Stambaugh's Trailer Sailor 24 as his personal boat. Rick
http://www.cmdboats.com/images/trailersailer24_sailplan.jpg :cool:

[Venchka]

Interesting, on a personal level.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Doug Canada]

I'm looking for something similar and have came across the "ELVER" a 20' (cedar) strip built canoe yawl. Check it out.

http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

I did not see it mentioned earlier.

Also, check out the "Calendar of progress" in this Elver web site;

http://home.att.net/~willmarsh3/el/elver.html

Any more thoughts on the Cape Cutter 19?

http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm

All the best,
Doug

P.S.,
I looking for something I can build;
-in a double car garage with two garage doors.
-shallow draft. drop centerboard.
-2000-2500 lbs. trailerable.
-for two tall people. (6'2' & 5'10")
-gaff rigged

Eun Mara is beautiful. But..

(i put this in a wrong spot, prior)

[Venchka]

Eun Mara is beautiful. But..
But what? Wee Seal II is beautiful too. But what? Either will weigh less than your 2k weight range. Maybe 2k with a steel trailer.

ELVER is quite popular around here. The SEARCH feature will bring up a lot of information. ELVER will weigh about half of your 2k-2.5k range. Too bad you didn't buy Daniel G. in Gulf Breeze, FL.

The CC 19 and CH 21 are new but gaining in popularity. There are a few under construction in the States.

Exactly how big is your garage and how large are the door openings? Those dimensions will dictate what can be built inside and more importantly, what can be moved through the door after you complete it. For example: my garage door opening is 6'-10" high. Allowing for the hull sitting in a cradle, or on a trailer, the boat ought to be lass than about 5'-6" from the low point of the keel to the high point of the cabin hatch. Ideally, 5'-0" works with a standard trailer.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Brian Palmer]

I noticed Elver was also missing, but one of the criteria was no flat bottom. I've got a used one and I like it. Easy to trailer and quick to set up. Sails well, too.

-- Brian

[Doug Canada]

Eun Mara .......But.

In my mind I believe she is probably the most beautiful craft that I have seen to date.

My concern is that it may be a little snug on the inside for two tall people. However; it is difficult to determine this from what I have been able to read.

Another concern is that I am a little intimidated by the thought of her construction. The amount of detail that I see in her is outstanding.

I do like to have on-line support from the designer. In building my canoe and kayak the on-line support was outstanding. Iain is somewhat difficult to reach in this day of e-mail. However; he did reply to my letter I sent him and was very helpful in doing so.

The boats on my short list are;
-Cape Cutter 19
(is anyone out there building one)
-Elver
-Eun Mara
-penguin

All the best,
Doug

P.S., my garage is 20'x20' with two garage doors (8'x7')
-Hope I did not ruffle any ones' sail.

[Dave Gray]

I was poking around local web sites and found this page. These folks built William Garden's Eel for about 10 years. I also like the 24' cutter.

Schooner Creek Boat Works (http://www.schoonercreek.com/traditional_sail/traditional_sail.htm)

The plans are tantalizing - too bad there is no table of offsets!

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Dave, check page 4. Looks like a table of offsets to me. smile.gif

Steven

[Dave Gray]

Steve, thanks. I should have been more specific - I don't see a table of offsets for the 24' centerboard cutter. The one page PDF document is tantalizing though.

[Jim Goodine]

I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest. I own an Elver and I was starting to build an Eun Na Mara (long story). The Eun Na Mara is a lot more boat than the Elver, although I'm sure that they will both launch equally easily.
The Elver has just barely enough headroom for me and I'm 5'9". The bunk is not really a double but more like a bunk-and-a-half. I think that anyone who is tall and has back problems would grow to dislike the Elver.
For me, after 4 years in a submarine, it seems absolutely palatial. It is quick to rig, cute, and a lot of fun.

[gert]

This is a Cape Henry 21 builders group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/capehenry21/messages
I can't find a cruising penguine image.

I have yet to decide myself (lots of excuses not to commit like new shop roof n stuff) however I did show CH21 and MARA to my cruising (37'keel) brother in-law and he rcomended the 21 cause she'd be faster; and speed can get you out of trouble. She's also a lot roomier inside and there would be room for a real head (for SWMBO)and I like the idea of the boom being on the tabernackle.

BUT, she's not a double ended yawl :(

the offspring frome Henry & Mara would be perfect :D

[ 11-10-2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Shane,

Have you contacted Richard Cullison about St. Valerie? The last time I spoke to Richard, he said he was going to build one for his personal use.

Wayne
In the Swamp. No wayne it was a fella named Tim that emailed me also sent me the price he paid last year for the plans {$300US} and Phils address which I had lost!... nice fella hope he contacts me and keeps me up to scratch on his build seemed pretty definant about building her :cool:

Art that was probably Yves himself... he every now and then sends me an amail with links to what he thinks I may be interested in on his site something new hes put together... quite a list he has isnt it?! :cool:

Eun Mara IS beautiful but Grey Seal is sweeter! ;) oh and a tad larger for yous burley fellas to stretch out in :cool:

ooooh damnhit! just build a weekender and go sailin!!... mmm come to think on it maybe I should do that eh? :rolleyes: ah well its the journey that matters as much as the adventures and more than the arrival :cool:

[jaapk.]

Wayne,

since you like catboats, take a look at my 16' catboat, CHARLOTTE II, designed by Lyle Hess, at my website: www. kraayenhof.nl/catboat/.
It is trailerable, beam is 8', although the Volvo was not actually allowed to tow the combination, since then I have borrowed a friends Landrover.
This summer we towed the boat to Sailcaledonia and sailed on Loch Ness, after that we drove to the south of England to Boats on Show, and won second prize in the Amateur Boatbuilding competition. It was great fun.

[Venchka]

jaapk...

I admire your boat. Flawless! I admire thefact that you were able to build her with reclaimed lumber. Brilliant! What I don't understand is second place? You was robbed! :D

More to the point. She's just too big. Or more correctly, too much displacement for the space I have for building, towing and storing.

Reality has crept into my brain. Darn it! I figure I 'll never build a boat larger than I can carry. The dream of a larger boat is there, but it drifts farther and farther into the mist.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Ya gotta love that transom!

http://www.anaburen.nl/catboat/016.jpg

smile.gif

Steven