Yet another 20-footer for consideration

[Ed Armstrong]

In my ongoing dreaming about the trailerable twenty-footer that I will someday build, after my children are grown and I finish my 10' plywood lapstrake Acorn dingy, I've come across Herreshoff's classic Fish design. Joel White has drawn a centerboard version called the Flatfish, and some Fish designs included a cabin:

http://www.vsp.cape.com/~whmsi/felicity.htm

I've been drooling over this particular Fish for awhile now and mostly just wanted to share this design with those of you who like to think about boats in this size range. I've enjoyed a number of postings from you-all on Wellsford's Penguin and his new upcoming design, Oughtred's Eun mara, Wee Seal & Gray Seal, and numerous others.

Are there any opinions out there on a Fish with cabin? Seems like I change my mind on a daily basis about the desirability of a cabin. I currently sail an FRP Cape Dory Typhoon, which has a cabin so small that I won't sleep in it. I clearly don't NEED a cabin, but if I had one, perhaps I would use it for something other than a place to store (and use) the head...especially when my daughters get old enough to want to overnight on the boat.

I did have one other question for the group mind:

Joel White's version lists carvel as the only construction method, which isn't the best for trailering (or my fledgling boatbuilding skills). I could probably handle strip or cold-molding though. My brief search on this BB returned a few postings from people who were going to attempt to strip-build a Fish hull, though I didn't see any follow-up pictures or posts. Has anybody out there done cold molded or strip planked a Fish? Can anybody think of a reason that cold-molding or strip wouldn't work with this hull?

TIA,

Ed

[imported_Daniel]

Sorry I cant help you with any of the technicalities of the constuction of this boat, but I think she's a real pretty boat that looks like a joy to use. I wish you luck and hope to follow your progress.

[JimConlin]

What's the deal with plans for Fish? Is it tied up by Cape Cod Shipbuilding like the 12-1/2 or do you have to promise MIT that you'll build it by candlelight of gopherwood?

[Ed Armstrong]

I haven't looked into the plans yet. I figured if I got as far as building it, I would probably go the route of Joel White's Flatfish. Since it will live on the trailer, the centerboard version is the one for me.

Ed

[paladin]

there ain't no such thing as "gopherwood" as a wood..

[Venchka]

That's a lot of boat for a trailer. Not exactly a bad thing. Something to ponder.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Russ Manheimer]

Ed,
The boatyard where I keep my boat built a Flatfish last year. She is probably the most comfortable boat to sail that I've ever been on. Well balanced and always graceful. Here she is along with a link to some more photos:
http://photos14.flickr.com/18047064_a1763f8318.jpg

Flatfish Photos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sjogin/sets/267468/)

As far as a cabin is concerned I think Herreshoff built a version of the Fish with a small cabin. There was a post earlier this summer on a glass Fish with a cabin.

This boat was built traditionaly, White Cedar on steam bent Oak frames. I believe Eric Dow, in Brooklin, Maine, has built several cold molded Flatfish.

Good luck with your project.

Russ

[Ed Armstrong]

Vencha, heavier than an Eun mara, lighter than a Grey Seal. Certainly not as easy to trailer as your Caledonia, but probably about the same as my Typhoon (heavier, but shallower draft). Cold molding might cut down on that weight a bit. I'd guess that she's about in the middle of what I've been considering (Penguin, Eun Mara, Grey Seal, Gartside's 22' double-ender, Crocker's Sallee Rover, Zimmer Sloop, etc.) While I might never get around to building this boat, It sure is fun to dream!

Russ, thanks for sharing those pics. She sure is a beautiful boat (as is your lapstrake double-ender).

[Keith Wilson]

It would be very hard to find a better-looking boat. I don't think you'll ever make the cabin really habitable, at least not for very long or without making it ugly - OTOH, you may be smaller and more flexible than I am. ;) It's quite trailerable, at least if it's built in a type of construction that will handle it (not carvel-planked). Some attention to a mast tabernacle and mast-raising apparatus would be time well spent. I'd build it glued plywood lapstrake, which may offend Herreshoff purists, but sure would look nice.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Ed Armstrong:
...I'd guess that she's about in the middle of what I've been considering (Penguin, Eun Mara, Grey Seal, Gartside's 22' double-ender, Crocker's Sallee Rover, Zimmer Sloop, etc.)You have a good eye! A bit of GOOGLING confirms your placement on the heft scale. Only Penguin and Eun Mara are lighter. Throw in the J-24. I see folks towing those behind Suburbans. It can be done. You might need a hoist for launching. As pointed out above, the heft of the mast could be troublesome. That applies to most of the masts on your list. None of that is insurmountable. Just keep your eyes wide open to the total picture.

http://photos8.flickr.com/10851850_18b8a0075e_m.jpg

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Ed Armstrong]

Wayne, yes, it is one of the more difficult decisions -- trailerability vs. interior room. I'm a believer of smaller is better because of that -- the larger the (trailerable) boat, the less you'll likely end up sailing it because it is harder to launch. Twenty to twenty-two feet is about my limit. Fortunately, draft doesn't seem to be as much an issue in the lakes that I typically sail. Ramps are long and relatively steep, and I haven't had any serious problems launching my 2'7" draft Typhoon with 8' trailer tongue extension. The weight of the mast is a concern. I've heard that some Fish were gaff-rigged (or at least that the Haven was, of which the Fish is an larger cousin), and may consider a gaff-rigged craft to reduce spar length & weight. That is, if I ever get past the dreaming part and into construction, which will require finishing my Acorn dinghy first!

P.S. something tells me that you don't mean the 24 foot fin keeled fiberglass racing boat from J-boats when you say J-24.

[ 08-18-2005, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Ed Armstrong ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Ed Armstrong:
P.S. something tells me that you don't mean the 24 foot fin keeled fiberglass racing boat from J-boats when you say J-24.Yes. 3,100 pounds and a long spar. Just a for instance. I've never seen the boats being rigged for launch. I just see them on the road.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Ed Armstrong]

Ah, yes, but it may be due more to the J-24's draft, which if I remember right, was around 4'. I do know of a guy who trailers (and launches) his Victory 21, which draws almost 4'. He uses a 20' tongue extension; however, he doesn't do it very often!

If I can get the link right, here's a pic of my Ty sitting on it's trailer:

http://users.innercite.com/edarmstrong/sailing/62604_road_ready.jpg

It does take a bit more work (and more time) than a shallow-draft boat. As you said, it's something to be aware of. My next boat will be shallower draft than my current one.

[Venchka]

Shucks, if you can handle that boat, what am I trying to tell you? Nice boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Ed Armstrong]

Thanks. Carl Alberg did a nice job designing the Typhoon, for a fiberglass boat. I would like my next boat to be easier to rig and launch, though. I'm hoping if I build something in the twenty-foot range, with a gaff-rigged, hollow spar and shallower draft, set-up and take-down will be quicker.

I'm eagerly awaiting the new Wellsford design, though I'm probably 2+ years out from starting on a bigger boat.

[PVanderwaart]

You do want to check out the Petrel, a nice fiberglass rendition of the type:
http://tinyurl.com/desa9

[PVanderwaart]

The classic small cruiser of this type is the LF Herreshoff "Prudence" or H-23. A bit much for a trailer, admittedly.

[Ed Armstrong]

Thanks. The Petrel is certainly a beauty. I haven't seen the Prudence, but I'll check it out!

Ed

[Ed Armstrong]

Note for JimConlin:

I just heard from the curator of the Hart Nautical Collections at MIT that the offsets for the Fish are owned by Cape Cod Shipbuilding, so no luck there. I've asked them to check their collection for drawings of the Marlin, the cabin version of the Fish.