ness boat vs. tammie norrie

[Brian Badgley]

Hi everyone,

I am in my 749th iteration of settling on a boat to build, and I have decided on glued lap because I have to trailer and want to be able to travel with it. I want to avoid an outboard, so I want to be able to row it comfortably by myself, but I want a sailboat first that can be rowed home. I would like to sail with two people most of the time (with camping gear), and 4 people every once in a while.

I love oughtred's designs, and I belive the Tammie Norrie or one of the double ended beach boats (Whilly or Ness) will fit my requirements. I love the looks of both boats, but I have to admit I like the increased number of strakes and the transom on the Tammie Norrie. However, with the double-enders I can go up in size as high as I need to for capacity. Either way, can anyone clarify the difference in sailing qualities of these two boats?

I expect the advantages of the double enders to be:
- a bit more capable in open water
- easier to come about
- handles a following sea better when landing in surf (which is rarely very large on the Gulf coast of FL, but it could be a factor every once in a while)

While I expect the Tammie Norie to be:
- a bit more stable platform for family (read kids)
- roomier in the stern sheets for me to lounge while sailing

Finally, is it reasonable for one person to comfortably row the Ness boat or is it too large? Not incredibly far, but enough to get from the ramp, through the mangroves and boat wakes, out to some water with room to breathe.

As always, thanks for the great help!

[ 07-29-2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Brian Badgley ]

[landlocked sailor]

Iain's newest version of the Ness Boat actuall does have more stakes. The design is reviewed in this month's "Watercraft" magazine. I think it looks nicer too. Rick

[Ian McColgin]

I've not studied your choises with enough care to be specific to them, but I've some general thoughts. Remember that Grana (a marco polo 55' schooner) and Lacey (the kayak) are skinney double enders, Leeward (chamberlain 18' gunning dory) is a plumper double ender, but Tibbotts is a transom stern semi-pram. I've sailed and rowed lots of both transome sterned and pointed stern boats.

If you look at the water lines, you'll see that most 'double enders' are not perfectly symetrical and many transom sterned boat have stunningly fine and syemetrical waterlines below the water. It's easy to be decieved.

Whether pointy ended or some kind of transom, very fine ends are great for rowing or paddeling but don't have the bearing aft to carry sail well. Of boats with transom sterns, whitehalls and some wherrys fit this.

In general, I suppose you could design like LFH did - pretty much make a nicely drawn out pointy stern and then, if there is a reason, lop it off at a suitable place, which would follow the natural water movement at whatever your planned speed it - a sort of compromise between long water lines and a place that causes seperation and thus reduces the laminar resistance.

Now and then you'll see a sail boat with a transom, even a big one, that leaves very little wake. And you'll see things like the Wianno that leave a wake big enough to surf on.

And some double enders leave about no wake while the Atkins boats, admirable though they are in many ways, do push the water around.

My dory Leeward hikes up a huge wake as she approaches her very modest 'hull speed'. She's easy to push along by oar or sail up to a bit under 4 kt but after that she's digging a hole in the water. This is less than the nominal 1.3 times the square root of the water line that's a normative bench mark. Yet Leeward is stunningly seaworthy in so many other ways that I happily live with her slowness.

The idea that a pointy end parts a following sea, like the idea that only a transom has the bouyance to rise with a following sea, are both false extraploations of a partial truth. I've seen pointy ends that get pushed into a broach as easily as a transom - -

- in fact that's exactly what we use in ocean kayaking to digress a bit. The surf ski type kayak is a sporty unit that can be run like a surf board, but your basic ocean kayak will broach something fierce. Once broached, it'll surf sideways if you can stay up. So we start down the wave and once with it, allow the broach and hang a high brace into the wave. Surfing sideways. Leeward will also do that, but other dory types, like the glouster gull will simply roll over on you.

There's so much to design.

If there's a likely rule of thumb, it might be that in smaller boats you're a bit more likely to get a good sailor with a transom - at least with waterlines that are a bit convex at the stern, and a good row boat with really fine water lines - even a bit of hollow at the stern.

I think that general seaworthiness is more due to other charactoristics like reserve bouyancy (which is not simply freeboard) and the right compromise of form stability with metacentric.

G'luck.

[Brian Badgley]

I didn't realize that there even is a new Ness Yawl out there. I guess Iain never got the memo that he was not allowed to add confusion to my already difficult choice...

Ian, thanks for a great response. I appreciate the reminder not to get caught up in the shape above water, as I was doing. I have not seen lines drawings of these boats, does anyone know if they are in his catalog? (I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive...)

and you are right about the kayak analogy, as I rarely seem to be coming into a beach and not find myself looking at my neighbor before I know what happened. Better than finding myself looking at the stingrays, I guess.

Anyone out there that can comment on the sailing ability of these two boats specifically? I am probably splitting hairs, but thought I would check for any feedback that might be out there...

[Greg H]

I believe don Olny built a ness yawl last year, and he's around somewhere. I'm building a Whilly, definatly too small for four...

Here is a pic of Ian's J11 http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pictures/oughtred/j2build4.jpg
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/dfwbphp/boatPAGE.php?type=spec&ID=1029

[ 07-29-2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Greg H. ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Of course, there's always the Caledonia Yawl as well. May be a bit bigger than what you had in mind, but what a pretty boat.
http://www.greatwoodboats.com/c2.jpg

[Wiley Baggins]

Todd,

I believe that the idea is to reduce the number of choices to one. How about pulling with the team here? smile.gif

[Ben Fuller]

And of course there is Tony Dias's Harrier which was designed to meet these specs. She rows fine with 1, fast with two, and can plane under sail. Recent experience at the WBS showed her a good bit faster than a Caledonia in a moderate 10 -15, once the two aboard figured out how to make the rig work.

She is double ended but has considerable more bearing aft than forward which improves sailing. Her flat bottom board , dory style makes it easy to beach and trailer.

My second choice was the 95% Ness Yawl which Ian did for me. I decided not to go for it as I wanted the flat bottom; we have mud flats to ground on around here.

Ben

[imported_Steven Bauer]

I asked the guy from 2 Daughter's Boatworks (they had the Caledonia Yawl on shore) at the WBS if you could really take eight people out for a sail and he said that on the 4th they had twelve people and a keg!
Steven

[Brian Badgley]

Yes, the original goal was to limit the choices, but I have seen all these, so I am prepared. the Ness Caledonia Yawls are too big for me, no matter how gorgeous. I noticed the increased number of strakes on the Caledonia picture also, is that a builder modification or another re-design? I like the narrower strakes much more, and I wonder if I go with the Ness boat if that is an easy modification or option?

Also, I have a petty hangup about wanting a convential tiller, which is impossible on the yawls, as far as I understand. I do love harrier also, mostly due to Ben's posts that I have seen in the past, as well as talking with Tony Dias. Ben, does the harrier have a push/pull tiller? Also, is it glued lap? your pics on Tony's website look traditional, unless you built glued ply with frames?

[ 07-30-2002, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Brian Badgley ]

[Don Olney]

Hi Brian,

No time for a response now, but here are some pictures of my Ness Yawl:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292011163

Here is a review of Iain's Ness Yawl:

http://www.imagic.demon.co.uk/openboat/ness.html

The Ness Boat looks like a fine little ship.

-Don

[ 07-30-2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Don Olney ]

[Keith Wilson]

Y'know, you can build either boat with as many strakes as you like. You'll have to line off the planking anyway (I don't think Iain does this for you in the plans), so put on as many as you like - Heck, you could even strip-plank it if you want ;) Ignoring aesthetics, narrower strakes make more work, give a slightly heavier and stronger hull, may allow a more efficient use of plywood, and use shallower clamps.

[Tom Dugan]

Right! And do not underestimate the importance of Keith's last two points.

[Brian Badgley]

Are the 95% Ness Yawl and the JII Yawl the same boat? If not, what is the difference? While the Ness Yawl is pushing it, I might be able to do an 18 footer in my garage.

[Don Maurer]

I am almost done building my Tammie Norrie, but it will be a month or 2 before I launch it, so I cannot comment on the sailing characteristics yet. It is a fine little boat, but now that it is complete enough to sit in and dream, I wish it were a foot or 2 longer and about 6" wider. She should easily carry 2 with camping gear and maybe 3. A crew of 4 adults would be too much for anything but day sailing in light airs, I think. I set mine up to use the balanced lug as a cat rig, but I also added an extra step for the gunter sloop rig. I built the boat as a sail trainer, so I wanted maximum flexibility. Actually, I added a 3rd "step" behind the centerboard, so I could set it up as a cat ketch if I really wanted to, but two masts on a boat that small seems a bit like overkill. The 3rd step was added for a rack to transport the spars and oars when trailering long distances.

I also have plans for the Ness boat and Ness yawl. Both are much larger boats than Tammie Norrie. Interestingly, the displacement of both the Ness Boat and Ness Yawl are almost identical, even though the Ness Yawl is 2 1/2 ' longer and just as wide. I have heard that sailing the Ness Yawl is not for beginners. The Ness boat looks to be a little more stable, especially with the reduced sail area.

[Don Maurer]

Actually, Iain does provide the points where the top and bottom of the strakes contact the staton moulds. If you run a batten through the points, you can trace the lines for each strake on the planking stock. More strakes = more construction time. I averaged about a pair of strakes a week, working 8 - 10 hours a week. Tammie Norrie has 8 per side. The Ness Boat and Ness Yawl have 4. JII has 6. The JII is the 95% Ness Yawl modified for 6 strakes / side and some other minor modifications.