bits vs cleats

[OEX]

I am in the middle of repairing/restoring the stern (deck, knees, etc) of my 34 gaff Cutter Katarina. I am thinking of the main sheet and mooring points.... Bits or cleats?

The boat is a British Gaff Cutter style, but built in USA in the late 20s. I will be adding bulwarks of 11-14 inches or so.

Here is the url to pix of her, etc

katarina (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Katarina%20Colin%20Archer--%20Atkin.htm)

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
For mooring, definitely bitts on the foredeck (or strictly a samson post, bedded down on the keel, which is what appears to have been fitted before.) My preference would be for more bitts on each quarter as well, backed up to the stringers, but you could get away with large (15"+) cleats there instead if they were properly supported under the deck beams. Also, since you're replacing the bulwarks, consider two or three pairs of kevels down her length as well -- very handy for temporary mooring-line belays as well as dinghy painters and other odds and ends too from time to time.

Cleats are traditonal for all sheets, but I suppose you could use bitts for the mainsheet if you really wanted to.

A very nice-looking vessel.

Mike
.

[OEX]

Sampson is still there from original (8 x 10). Yes on Kevels. I have experience with fifes in Scotland and liked the sheet bits, etc. Cleats were on the boat as original, but what are the pluses and minuses for sheets? I have seen them used on Channel Cutters too, seems fairly common on working boats of Great Britain.

Thanks for the complement on the boat---not sure of the designer still.....oh well smile.gif
Cheers

[ 11-20-2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[Frank Wentzel]

What would the diference be between an ordinary cleat and a kevel?

/// Frank ///

/

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Ah, I can offer something useful!

Mirelle has all three - quarter posts (i.e. mainsheet bitts) cleats and kevels, all within range of the double ended mainsheet!

Actually the kevels were originally fitted for the falls of the runner tackles, but we have Highfield levers now and they are used for the Wykeham Martin line and the staysail sheet.

A kevel is a cleat formed by bolting or rivetting a horizontal bar across a pair of frame heads or bulwark stanchions.

They are brilliant for getting long lines out of the way tidily, but not good for belaying in a hurry.

I find that the cleats are what I almost always use; the exception is when I make the mainsheet round a post perparatory to what I know will be a very heavy gybe.

To use the posts all the time takes too long - the cleats are fastest.

[OEX]

Ah, Andrew this is what I am looking for. I had been thinking gybes in my gaff cutter (30 foot boom) and how a bit would be nice and easy to let line out and haul in, etc. Are the bits ever in the way when you’re using the cleats most of the time? Does it get too busy towards the stern ---do you have gallows and a horse??

Also, what issue of CB was your stove article? I have three shipmates and one tiny tot and am still researching other stove (all these came cheap at antiques stores and ebay---want to look into it again this winter.

Cheers, Bruce

[ 11-21-2005, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Bruce,

I am not sure that I am talking to you!

I hate people who can pick up Shipmates for small money in antique shops! No chance at all, over here! I just paid £300 for a secondhand 201! Mind you, it is a lovely thing...

Mirelle has a counter stern. Starting from aft, and heading towards the small, self draining, footwell, we have:

The taffrail

A mainsheet buffer, with a single block on it, and two single blocks on deck eyebolts to each side of it.

The boom gallows, which crosses the entire deck from rail to rail

The lazarette hatch, in the middle, with the quarter posts each side of it, at the end of the cockpit coamings, and, between the coamings and the hatch, two 12 inch cleats. There is no aft coaming.

Somehow I think a photo would be better...

...but to get to the point, the two ends of the mainsheet pass inside the two quarter posts to the two fore and aft cleats, so you can make the end off on either.

[Russ Manheimer]

Bruce,

Teriffic boat. The sheer and house remind me of an Atkin Design. Keep us posted on your progress and search for her designer.

Andrew's stove article was in the November 2004 issue of Classic Boat. Here's a link to Navigator Stove Works, the manufacturer of the Sardine model I have on Sjogin.

Navigator Stove Works (http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm)

Russ

[OEX]

Thanks guys. I have been looking at that little stove, and others. We will see. Not to rub it in, but the Oyster Sloop Restoration boat we (WBRF) will be working on has a nice large shipmate, original from 1914 smile.gif

pix and text on Katarina will be updated on the website---I will give notice here when I do put them up.

Cheers, Bruce

[OEX]

Andrew---can I get you to take a pic? What type of boat is she?

cheers
p.s. I will be in the UK in Jan---maybe I can "carry-on" the shipmate :D Just kidding.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p831562b2711090ef8b9acc5c44638c0b/fde66a74.jpg

You can just about make out the arrangement of the aft deck and cockpit, here.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p682f7391c2f04df80965a13cefcf720a/fde6594f.jpg

How do I post a photo?

[ 11-22-2005, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[OEX]

send the puic to me at bioelf@mindspring.com and I will post it. You have to have it on a web page all by itself to be able to post it---pain in the butt I know and very archaic. b People use a few types of sites that you can hold pictures---not sure of the best one, search the threads for the answer I guess. I use the listings pages in WBRF to do mine.

cheers---I am off to Deer Isle maine for our Thanksgiving---0n the WATER again at last!!!!!

You still interested in being a WBRF rep for UK?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Bruce - just emailed three pics.

Yes, let's meet and talk about it when you are over here in January.

[OEX]

Here are Andrew's pix. Very nice, it reminds me of one of my favorite boats---Bryony

Edit: I changed a few of your shots to make them viewable here....

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=499

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=502
http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=500

[ 11-22-2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Bruce.

BTW, that's Ian Wright at the helm in the middle picture, with my son Alex, then aged 8, with him.

The very rusty Shipmate Skippy in the cabin picture has just been replaced with a beautiful Shipmate 201.

[ 11-22-2005, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[OEX]

here is a diagram of my boat with the changes in the bulwarks, extended bowsprit and a whale strake added. Sail plan is not right in pic yet.
http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=503

Cheers

[Ian McColgin]

The forestaysail looks a bit steep and narrow and small. Since the mast is pretty much stuck there, maybe you want to dispense with it and settle for two jibs equipped for Merriman furlers, one small and one large, that can be run out as the wind dictates.

My other thought for this most handsome vessel is that the gallows is too close to the main sheet, You risk fouling in a high wind gybe. Because a boat this small should be easily reefable if you have well placed lazy lifts to both hold the boom up and confine the bunt, I'd personally settle for a portable crutch, if any.

High wind gybe:

There are way too many folk who think a gybe must be done slavishly, with the main hauled in to center and let out gradually. This adds much to the danger of a high wind gybe. The centered main can induce a death roll broach. At the minimum you'll face some very interesting steering problems. You also have the stresses caused by the fact that almost no one knows how to let the sheet really run - soft hands and no gloves or nerve I guess - so you always get that slam where the sail tries to broach the boat further into the new tack.

It takes some nerve and some very nice line handling, but a high wind gybe can be done safely if from about dead down wind and sail way out you swing her through about 100 degrees to just forward of a beam reach on the other tack.

The sail will fly across and stop itself when it luffs. This wild and flying gybe actually reduces the strain on the rig. It also means that you don't have to be as magically fussy about when you set up the new running backstay, if any.

It has some issues to think through first.

In the snap of the wind filling from the other side of the sail, the boom will lift. At age 6 almost 7 in my first breezy gybe I managed my first dismasting as the boom lifted to smash on the mast! So, a heavy boom is better than a vang on a traditional rig anyway, but you may want to add a vang.

Secondly, the sheet is all the way out which means it's leading forward at 45 degrees or so from the counter. As this huge multi-part bight comes flying across the cockpit and aft end of the cabin perhaps, it will be seeking things with which to foul - heads and limbs especially. A well designed cockpit area will not have winches and bitts and cleats in the way but the binnacle, wheel or tiller may tempt the sheet. It helps if one person of nerve (if not the helmsman) is back there to simply fold all the sheet parts as they go slack and basicly cast them across. A hand needs to be at the top of the helm and all heads suitably ducked to shed the passing line. It all sounds harder than it is but you must practice.

Thirdly, pick your moment. I like to make the turn on a wave crest so that I'm slamming around while the new lee side is still on the wave's back. Once the sail is around and luffing, you'll need to bear off quickly, a nice thing to get done in the trough.

If your crew weight is important for dynamic balance, you need to be sure they get and then stay centered until the boom AND sheet have passed over head.

As you can see, this evolution is not practical with any gallows ahead of the sheet's attachment to the boom.

It really does sound and look much more terrifying than it actually is.

Especially for a gaff rig with a big main and many fathoms of sheet, it's often not possible to pull the main anywhere near center without forcing the boat to round up, likely broaching, and very few crews are fast enough on the sheet that they can haul in the slack as fast as the boom comes across.

There's huge safety in oversteering the gybe to let the wind stop the sail. I've certainly managed repeated gybes in weather where the only others to even try were snapping gaffs or rolling their booms into the waves and doing the pirouette leveraged death roll.

G'luck

[OEX]

As I said the diagram does not reflect the sail plan at all (still messing with that). I have all the rigging, sails, spars, etc and I am not changing anything but the bowsprit. I need to see how she sails as is first (bowsprit is housable, so I will set it at the old spot and them move it out and see what happens to the helm (I think she will have a very weatherly helm as she is now with a 4 1/2 foot bowsprit---also old owner did mention an easy into stays (irons) and weather helm). Her boom is about 28 feet and her mast is about 44ft and her gaff is 16. She has neither topsail nor topmast.

She is 33 foot LOD and 31 1/2 LWL and a beam of 12"3" and a draft of 5'10".

After a year or so of sailing I will see about the aspect of the main and if it needs (wants) changes and I will see also about a topsail or topsail mast and topsail jib.

I am not stressed about a gybe, but just interested to see if I can use bits to slow it down towards the end vs. a cleat or all up to my hands. The cockpit now is very open, no combing, winches, binnacle, or anything but a couple of cleats. I plan on gallows right off the side of the stern bulwarks (not really right in the diagram). The horse now is about 2 ¼ long---I had thought to increase this to 5 feet or more. My Cornish Shrimper really does well when the main is sheeted right off the stern quarter and not towards the center. It seems to me that if the main is sheeted off the center as much as possible that the force would be more forward and not to the side (make sense?).

does all this sound logical?

pix here
pix (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Katarina%20Colin%20Archer--%20Atkin.htm)

[ 11-22-2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

She's a big boat - much bigger than Mirelle although shorter overall - more than a foot more beam and four feet more waterline.

Quite a powerful beast.

Is that a single ended mainsheet or a double ended one?

I'm sure you know the dodge (photo in Hiscock's "Cruising under Sail" showing "Dyarchy"'s taffrail) for rigging a double ended mainsheet on a transom stern boat - just carry the centre block over the tiller, either on a very short horse or just on a reinforced section of taffrail over the tiller.

I find that a double ended mainsheet allows the boom to settle nicely into the right spot with a good downward pull on it.

I'm not keen on long horses - big risk of something getting foul.

Based on my own experience, (see pics!) I would scrap the staysail boom' far more trouble than they are worth.

[ 11-22-2005, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[OEX]

staysail boom---what are the problems and are they not offset by the self tending?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

As you can see, we've got one.

Drawbacks:

1. Requires smaller than usual staysail (no overlap possible)

2. Takes longer to set and stow sail

3. Loads of friction in sheeting system, due to extra blocks

4. Takes over the foredeck.

Advantages:

1. Self tending when tacking

I've come very slowly to the conclusion that assuming one sets the staysail last and hands it first, a normal sail gives so much more pulling power when set that the minor advantage of not having to sheet itwhen tacking in a river is well outweighed.

[OEX]

huuummmm ..... :confused: I got to think on this over a glass of wine and some turkey and a bit of time on the water.

I see what you are saying and this boat will need lots of sail for summer sailing in Downeast Maine where she will be most of the time.

thanks again

cheers

[ 11-22-2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[OEX]

Another drawback with the boom is that it is more difficult to use roller furling....yes?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Now we are getting into the truly obscure backwaters of traditional yachting!

It IS possible to use roller furling with a staysail boom. There is a drawing of the set up in one of Francis Cooke's books.

You need to have two lines running up the boom.

One is the usual staysail sheet, which typically passes from the becket of a single and becket block on the end of the boom, to a block on the foresail horse, back to the block and thence forward along the boom to a turning block under the gooseneck, and thence aft.

The other is the clewline, passing from the clew, through a block at the outboard end of the boom, to a second turning block at the foot of the boom and thence aft.

To furl the sail, ease the clewline and haul on the furling line; to set it, haul on the clewline and ease the drum line.

You now have three lines passing aft in respect of one sail - sheet, furling line and clewline... :rolleyes:

This was a common fitting aboard the sailing canoes of the decades before WW1. Hence the term "canoe jewellery" used to describe the tiny blocks.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Oh, just to answer the original question - I would fit quarter posts for sure - for mooring, belaying the tender's painter, etc., even if not used for the mainsheet, which can still go to cleats.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew, what are the dimensions of your sampson posts and quarter posts? How big is Mirelle ? 10 or 11 tons, and say 30'wl x 10' beam?

She really is lovely smile.gif

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Peter, I've replied to your PM. Sorry for the oversight.

27ft 6ins waterline, 9ft 9ins beam, design displacement 20,000lb.

Quarter posts are oak, four inches square, cleats are teak, 15 inches long.

Both have been replaced during my ownership, the originals having proved a little small.

[PeterSibley]

Andrew, I got your PM...thank you very much.I was also interested in the lines drawings you posted for Mirelle .She seems to bear a strong resemblance,below the wl ,to the boat I am building.Mine is a little larger,30' wl, 10'6" beam and slightly greater displacement,(calculated) of 22,000 lb.A plumb bow though ;) ,a bit more Edwardian in appearance smile.gif I shall take great interest in any details you care to post.

[ 11-29-2005, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: PeterSibley ]

[igatenby]

Peter

I bet you don't put a wood fire in though - then again, you do live somewhere near the Antartic don't you?

Ian

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The shape of the bow was altered to accord with the metacentric shelf theory. Some deadwood was cut away and the forefoot rounded up, as compared with the original John Alden design on which she was based.

In the opinion of her first owner, Philip Allen, this was a mistake.

On the credit side, she self-steers quite well, and I think what is happening is that as she heels the forefoot loses grip on the water and tends to skid to leeward just as the midbody tends to shove the bows up to windward. This fits what I understand to have been Arthur Robb's ideas on the subject.

On the debit side, she is a pig when motoring in a fresh breeze - Philip found, as I do, that her bows will blow off, due to the lack of forefoot, and more than once I have had to execute a quick "360" turn - amongst moored boats - to get her pointing the right way again. This can be heart-stopping stuff.

Furthermore, she sheers around when anchored, espescially if I leave the W/M jib rolled on the bowsprit. If I house the bowsprit she behaves.

Perhaps more seriously, certainly more controversially, she seems slower than she should be. This may be due to the very powerful bow sections. The plus side to this is that she is very dry - but as has been said, slow boats usually are dry!

There may be other reasons for the slowness, and two which come to mind are, first, that she is relatively under-canvassed and under-ballasted, and second that her owner is a lousy helmsman. I am starting to experiment with the first of these. That she is undercanvassed is illustated by the few occasions on which we need a reef - we are well into F5 before thinking about it, whereas I think that most gaff cutters will be tucking their first reef at the start of F4. The under-ballasting is more subjective, of course. There is some 6,600lbs on the keel and another 1,000lbs or so internally. This is not much of a ballast ratio, espescially with the high top weight of gaff rig. I am planning to add some more internal ballast, as an experiment. In the long term, if the increase in ballast proves correct, I will replace the iron ballast keel with lead, to get the weight in the right place and abolish internal ballast.

[martin schulz]

Bruce,
perhaps you should consider a little bar (sorry, I don't know the proper name) like I have for the mainsheet.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/pffddd17c48370b6700845e64a017c0cc/f1436899.jpg

Oops sorry, I just saw that you already have one...

[ 11-29-2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

British English = "horse"

American English = "traveller"

(I think!)

Deutsch = ?

I see you belay your mainsheet to the quarter posts.

[ 11-29-2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
British English = "horse"

American English = "traveller"

Deutsch = Leuwagen

I see you belay your mainsheet to the quarter posts.True. I thought about using a block with one sheet-end fixed and the other end belayed on the block (the dutch use blocks, called "Hackblock" for this).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p4bea25db2cd2d424f687af714a2b3694/f142a562.jpg

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thames bawleys

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/images/200/F2841-1.jpg

with a standing gaff mainsail, which brails to the gaff, and no boom, also use a "hack block" for the mainsheet.

Lethal in a gybe...

[martin schulz]

I am not sure, but in the pic above the loose end is just jammed between the sheet and the block. That way all you'll have to do in a gybe is a strong jerk on the loose end.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I didn't make myself clear.

In a bawley, the "lethal" bit is the upper block, attached to the clew of the mainsail, which can knock your brains out, rather than the hack block itself which is on the horse.

Even my 16ft bawley rigged little boat is "quite interesting"!

[martin schulz]

;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid141/pd984484034d566ff9d360b75aebd3f8b/f6d2d2ec.jpg

[Alan D. Hyde]

Mirelle's a beautiful vessel, Andrew.

She is slow to prolong your enjoyment. :D

Alan

[PeterSibley]

Ian, perhaps not a wood stove,although I've used wood heat for 30 years.Probably something like this
ht tp://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7565549145&category=106203&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:AU:11 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7565549145&category=106203&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:AU:11)

I missed out on it on Ebay last night...the joys of dialup :eek: I can't win a trick.As an aside what do people think of that style of heater....an Aladdin Blue Flame.I hope to spend a bit of time around the Tasmanian coast...it's a bit chilly there for we Northerners.

Andrew, thanks for the discussion of Mirelles performance...perhaps I will have to develop a little more patience ;)Her ballast,weights and arrangement are similar to mine.

I'm going to try for around 750 squ. feet of sail .....would Mirelle have around that? Have you ever considered yawl rig as an aid to mooring and motoring (esp upwind)?

[ 11-29-2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: PeterSibley ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Peter, the Pardeys use such a stove, but personally I would not have one aboard as I don't think they respond well to heeling and motion; if I were going for a kerosene stove I would go for a Taylor's pressure vapourising type.

I think 750 sq ft is probably right; we are roughly 100 sq ft short of that, with exactly 400 sq ft in the mainsail.

My interim solution involves lengthening the mast, as recommended by Ed Burnett, so as to make the topsail part of the working rig. At the same time, I will scrap the boom staysail in favour of a proper one. If that does not do the trick, then in the longer term, I will add a new boom and gaff and another 100 sq ft in the mainsail, as there is certainly enough hoist (see photo).

Looking at the photo I reckon we are too high out of the water (a good fault in a cruiser, but taken too far) and under canvassed.

I don't care at all for yawls; I like a proper cutter, with the mast stepped 2/5 of the waterline aft from the bow.

More heavily canvassed cutters, such as the Colchester smacks and Victorian racing yachts have the mast further forward, to get more in the mainsail without absurd aft overhang of the boom.

[igatenby]

Barry & Noelene were varnishing during winter here and requested heating for early morning starts - a 2400watt fan heater does the job nicely. I've never had a need for heating - so far.

Ian

[ 11-30-2005, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: igatenby ]

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:

More heavily canvassed cutters, such as the Colchester smacks and Victorian racing yachts have the mast further forward, to get more in the mainsail without absurd aft overhang of the boom.You mean when the boats heels over just because of the weight of the boom alone...

http://www.tallship-fan.de/images/segl37h.jpg

[PeterSibley]

Peter, the Pardeys use such a stove, but personally I would not have one aboard as I don't think they respond well to heeling and motion; if I were going for a kerosene stove I would go for a Taylor's pressure vapourising type.

Andrew ,would you mind clarifying that,well adding a bit.What is the problem with the round wick type...does it go out ,surge? It's just that they are available secondhand ,usually in fine condition.The Taylors are not.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

To my mind, Martin, that photo does not show a seagoing rig. It is an inshore waters rig. I say that because of the angle the boom makes with the waterline. You can see that, if running in any sort of sea, the boom will dip in the water. This is a typical rig for racing boats, and for some inshore fishing vessels in summer. The racers always set their trysails when making passages, and only set their mainsails for day racing.

Boats like pilot cutters have the sort of rig that Mirelle has, with a very well steeved up boom.

But I reckon any gaff rigged boat can be made to heel a bit by running the boom, gaff and mainsail out!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Peter, yes, I recall that the problem is sloshing in the tank. Can go out but more significant can flare up. The Pardeys have a way of dealing with this, it seems.

[PeterSibley]

Hmmm, that shouldn't be to difficult to solve.Perhaps loosely filling the tank with something to restrict surging.Fiberglass wadding comes to mind.

Thanks Andrew.