British WWII wood boats

[jwaldin]

Does anyone know the name of the British WWII wooden boats that were about 60'. They sort of looked like American PT boats. They had two huge gas engines.

[Stiletto]

I think they were Motor Torpedo Boats , Fast and furious. I read an account of life aboard one of these ; frightening but interesting.

[John B]

MTB's and MGB's were the same hulls I recall reading relatively recently.deck/ superstructure variations for Torpedo boat and Gun boat.

[Aramas]

Like this?
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/anf/rn%20bilder/mtb5.jpg
They were called 'MTB's' - motor torpedo boats, and varied quite a lot in size up to about 120'.

Here's a list (http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/anf/rn-mtb.htm) of the MTB numbers from 1939-45 and their builders. The top photo is faily typical of the smaller ones and is probably what you were thinking of. The bottom photo is a Fairmile which shows the very high fwd chine line of that type - they were generally much bigger.
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/anf/rn%20bilder/mtb731.jpg
Vosper and Thornycroft were probably the most prolific builders of the smaller ones, so a search using their names should turn up some photos.

Edit - lol - have to be quick around here smile.gif

[ 12-09-2003, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[ion barnes]

I think the name your looking for is Fairmiles. Spelling may not be correct but phonetically it is.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The MTBs and MGBs had three Packard Merlins, went at very silly speeds, and were inclined to catch fire and blow up, due to the difficulty of keeping that much gasoline without leaks whilst doing 41 knots, even before the Germans took a hand in things. They also had what were apparently quite lamentable electic servo-pneumatic and servo-mechanical control systems. The larger Fairmile Motor Launches (ML's) which were 112ft LOA had two gasoline engines and made about 20 knots.

For much of WW2 they were involved in fighting with German E-Boats which laid mines in the swept channels followed by coastal convoys and would also attack merchant ships with torpedoes and gunnery.

A very small number were built with Paxman high speed diesel engines for the spcial task of bringing ball bearings, which Britain could not make in the required quantities or to the right specifications, I am not sure which, from Sweden.

The Merlin engined types did not have the range. Unfortunately the Paxmans were not wonderfully reliable, and quite a number of the blockade runners were caught in the open as sitting ducks, with engine failure, so some Mosquito bombers were modified for the task instead.

My late father, who was in the RNVR, shared the common opinion of all who had to do with the MTBs MGBs and MLs that the German E-boat was a very much better boat - diesels and hydraulics. He was with the group that overran the German base at Catania during the invasion of Sicily and found, intact, what appeared to be a complete set of drawings for the E-boat, which he sent off to the Admiralty with much satisfaction; he used to say that the "thank you" letter caught up with him sometime after VJ day, by which time he was in Burma.

[Hwyl]

Andrew,I did not realise that there are two types of Merlin engines. Are the Packard and Rolls Royce engines completely different?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

No; same engine. R-R design, V12, 27 litre, water cooled, aero engine. A Packard Merlin is a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, built by Packard in the USA. Packards did modify the design a little, in the direction of simplicity and ease of mass production, but the differences are small.

Well before WW2, it was obvious that the Merlin engine was the best British aero-engine; the Spitfire and Hurricane were designed around it "off the drawing board", and it was also obvious that, as a key element of the war effort, the RR factory that built it was a prime target for bombing.

"Shadow" factories were set up within Britain, and in the USA Packards also contracted to build Merlin engines. They built an awful lot of them - the Packard Merlin powered the P51 and in its marine version it powered British high speed light craft. Packards had started to build the engine for US-built Spitfires; later it was adopted for the P-51.

The mass production of the Merlin was a notable part of the war effort; RR are not, never have been, mass production engineers, and the Merlin was descended from very specialised engines built in small numbers. The original design for the Merlin was a private venture by RR; not in response to any government tender, so all development work was privately funded.

RR did two things with their engine; they developed a quality control programme to achieve very high reliability (basically, they took engines off the production line at random, ran them at full power until they broke, then found out which bit had broken and made it stronger!) and they worked out how to mass produce it whilst keeping it reliable.

I think that rather more than 160,000 Merlins were built; only a few hundred were the marinised version. I don't think any marinised ones survive, although a handful of MLs and MTBs do.

[ 12-10-2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Lucky Luke]

Hello Andrew,

This was very interesting reading about these Packard Merlin engines, thank you.

I had(not very fortunately)to do extensive (of course) repairs on an almost genuine MTB, over 30 years ago. She still had three engines, the central one with gearbox, the outer ones direct drive. I don't know if that was really the usual feature - I've been told that it was.

One thing I did really admire were tha amazing (big!) tanks, all encapsulated with a kind of rotten cotton and (what was left) of a tight canvas. This was, and I did SEE that, an interesting feature for keeping thetanks more or less tight and NOT EXPLODING: there were shells inside!!!

Yes, there are horrible stories about these beasts, but I would not have liked to hear the roar of these boats, coming to me at full speed in the middle of the night, and shooting their torpedoes at me!!!

Anyway, although this boat was, reasonably, beyond recovery, I did admire the crafmanship: copper clenched triple diag planking, beautiful job! I am not sure, but I think she had been built by VT.

[Dave Carnell]

Douglas Phillips-Birt has an interesting comment about these boats. The diesel-powered versions had an additional hazard. Tracer bullets would explode their fuel tanks because the vapors in a tank of diesel are explosive, while those in a gasoline tank are too rich to burn.

When Dad was repairing cars in the 1930s and I was his gofer, we kept an open pan of gasoline handy for cleaning parts. Dad smoked a pipe and extinguished his matches by tossing them into the pan. He probably learned this trick as a Marine aviation mechanic in France in 1917.

It wasn't until I studied physical chemistry in college that I learned why the matches went out. The vapors over the liquid were too rich to burn. In the ventilated space above the pan they were too lean to burn. The combustible zone was so small that the flaming match passed through it without effect.

Not an OSHA-recommended procedure.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I simplified things a bit.

The Fairmile B was 112ft, round bilge, 20 knots or so, with Hall Scott gasoline engines. These were not really front line vessels, although they were used for the St Nazaire raid.

The Fairmile D was a big long range MTB, hard chine, with four tubes and four Merlins. None survive now.

The prototype Vosper MTB, MTB 102, is still afloat and fully restored, owned by Norfolk Sea Scouts.

There is an odd survival of a WW1 Coastal Motor Boat, MTB 331, which was actually built in 1940 to 1918 plans - dating back to before the "hard chine" era, she is actually a stepped hydroplane. These boats launched their torpedoes, which were carried amidships, by pointing at the target, shoving the torpedo down a stern ramp....and altering course fast!

Here's a link:

http://www.coastal-forces.org.uk/

[WWheeler]

http://www.mnq-nmq.org/english/vivez/impacts/img_fairmi/MORIN4_sm.jpg

Substantial numbers of Fairmiles were built in Ontario (approx. 80) for the RCN. They were parcelled out to the various shipyards around the province, including Hunter Boatworks in Orillia, Greavette, Grew, Minett-Shields.

The Fairmiles were taken out of Orillia down the Trent-Severn Canal. I was on the system last summer, and I had to wonder how they did it. Draft of the Fairmile was 6' aft, but the LOA was 110 ft, and there's some tight turns and short locks.

Fairmile link (http://www.mnq-nmq.org/english/vivez/impacts/fairmi_1.htm)

[igatenby]

R-R design, 12 cylinder, 27 litre, water cooled, inline aero engine Weren't these actually a V12 engine?

Ian

[Jack Heinlen]

Dave,

That is so wildly counterintuitive that I'm also tempted to try it. smile.gif Almost.

Not to doubt you. Gas physics, physics altogether, yields many counterintuitive results.

But I'd thought I read somewhere that one of the advantages of the German E-boats was that they were diesel powered, and less liable to explosion? Of course, one reads all manner of things that aren't true.

BTW, if you search WB mag. archives you'll find a a history of the US PT(MTB), and in the next issue a lengthy letter to the editor, nose more than a bit out of joint, re British developement. It's an interesting interplay for those so inclined.

Finally, IIRC the first MTB were steam turbine powered British craft around the turn of the century, capable of at that time astounding speeds in the upper twenties.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally posted by igatenby:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> R-R design, 12 cylinder, 27 litre, water cooled, inline aero engine Weren't these actually a V12 engine?

Ian</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, of course. Don't know how I came to write "inline". Sorry. Corrected original. redface.gif

[Jack Heinlen]

Turbinia

Name ring a bell Andrew?

[Stiletto]

There are a few Fairmiles in private hands here in NZ. I dont recall them as being high powered. I havent seen any in very good condition.
My Dad served on one during WW2 for a short while and didnt view them that favourably, but he was used to larger ships.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Turbinia....

Now, there is one very famous little ship, but not built of wood!

The world's first steam turbine vessel, built, at his own expense, by the Honourable Charles Parsons, not as a means of testing the steam turbine that he had invented, but as what we learned to call a "publicity stunt".

Parsons' very first turbine, made in 1884, can be seen in the Faculty of Engineering at Cambridge University. Six horse power.

People were not paying attention. Parsons formed a company, called I think the Marine Steam Turbine Company, to build a turbine ship.

The Turbinia was the ship; steel, 100ft LOA, 9ft beam, 3ft draft. As Uffa Fox says in one of his books, where he prints her lines and GA plan, she has the proportions and shape of a rowing shell.

She did'nt work at first; big mystery. Parsons investigated and discovered the phenomenon of cavitation. He also fitted a better turbine.

2,100 shaft horse power.

Wow! She went!

People still were not paying attention.

On June 26th, 1897, the ageing Queen-Empress sat on the deck of her Royal Yacht, the third "Victoria and Albert", and steamed slowly through the ranks of the Royal Navy, assembled at Spithead for her Diamond Jubilee review.

As the Royal Yacht came to the end of the line. a little white steamer with smoke pouring from her funnel raced through the line of battleships. Picket boats were despatched to intercept her....no chance. They were very fast; 21 knots. Turbinia, sheeted in spray, romped in between the battleships at 34 knots and disappeared.

And the rest, as they say, is History.

The RN ordered its first turbine ship, the torpedo boat destroyer HMS VIPER, at once.

In 1905, Jacky Fisher ordered HMS Dreadnought, the warship that made all others out of date, with steam turbines.

In 1907, Cunard, having first built a pair of sisters, one with triple expansion, one with turbines, to find out for themselves, built
the Mauretania and the Lusitania, with 70,000 shp turbines. Blue Ribband of course.

In Uffa's book there is a photo of Turbinia nestling under the bow of her immense granddaughter, in 1907. Her last voyage; she is now in a museum.

[ 12-10-2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally posted by Stiletto:
There are a few Fairmiles in private hands here in NZ. I dont recall them as being high powered. I havent seen any in very good condition.
My Dad served on one during WW2 for a short while and didnt view them that favourably, but he was used to larger ships.The Fairmile B - the round bilge 112ft job, was basically what the USN called a sub chaser - an anti submarine vessel, armed with depth charges, and light anti-aircraft guns (Oerlikons, made in Switzerland). Two Hall Scott 600 hp V12's, maybe 20 knots.

These were often bought for conversion into yachts and houseboats, after the war, and the engines were usually changed for smaller Diesels, for $$$ reasons.

The Fairmile D, shown in Aramas' photo near the top of this thread, was a big, long range, MTB, hard chine, with four Merlins. These were, to put it mildly, not practical yachts, and they are therefore extinct!

[Hwyl]

Thanks Andrew for the information about Merlin engines.
The Uffa Fox book "Seamanlike sense in Power boats" (I think) is in our local library. I keep trying to buy it, and the reply always is "but it is borrowed at least twice a year" to which I reply "Yes, by me!".

But back to Turbinia, Uffa adds that if the Admiralty had listened to Parsons, the Kaiser would not have seen Turbinia at Spithead and therefore WW1 would have been a lot shorter, because the Royal Navy would have had far superior technology. A story to enjoy but perhaps not ruminate over.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I recall from somewhere that the Merlin engine was considered so important that drawings and tooling for it were sent to the United States, early in the war, to ensure that they did not fall into German hands, should Britain be invaded.

Like the Phantom II car, the claim is made for the Merlin that it was the last RR aero engine for which the design team was headed by Sir Henry Royce. It was a private venture by RR and was based, somewhat, on the "R" air racing engine used in the Supermarine S6B (and, incidentally, in Sir Malcolm Campbell's "Bluebird" car and boat).

[Meerkat]

Wasn't the Merlin also used in other aircraft, especially the Mosquito and Lancaster?

[John Bell]

All this talk of Rolls Royce Merlins and Packard Merlins, and I have to wonder where the Allison V-12 fits in?

[Lucky Luke]

Very interesting about the engines...may be could have more about the boats.

What about the ASR? (Air Sea Rescue). I did some work too one one of these (not in England that one, but in the South of France), which had been considerably modified to become a Yacht (well, a really rotten yacht!!!). She was very much the same as an MTB / MGB, used to have three engines too (which ones???), but had a much lower aft deck. Same construction as the MTB too.

Somebody knows about them???

Then about the German MTBs: Besides the fact that they had diesels instead of petrol engines, while the Admiralty kept insisting that construction had to be of high standards (I had the opportunity to appreciate that!), Germans went for quick, economical construction. Many of these boats did little more than one attack, and the use of expensive material and expert craftmanship was not making much sense. Building them cheaply in grea numbers was the key.

There were no radars in those days, and these boats (British or Germans) had to be stationned on some supposed route of "ennemy" ships, commercial or military, and to do a fast (very fast!) attack when they would see a convoy on a dark horizon, as it was usually at night. They could not be far away from their home , having a limited range (were often towed up to their station), and they were mainly defending their coasts.

German boats were built after seing the efficiency of British boats, and could have been very efficient...but the war happily ended.

One main reason for both nation's boats efficiency was that the hulls themselves could receive a lot of shots with little damage; their planking was too thin to make big shells explode...unless an engine was hit, and only the very small superstructure was armored. There was not enough time to shoot at them while they attacked - they were so fast - but many had been shot after lauching their two torpedoes and turning back.

Most torpedoes did not hit their target, as these boats were not able to aim properly, that's where the numer was the key.

Well, this is what I can recollect from men who built some, mainly my old freind John Wilsher, of Shoreham by the sea. If somebody may happen to know about him....?

[ 12-11-2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

[Graeme Forrest]

Just a point. The engines used in the majority of British MTB/MGB were the same as those used in the American PT Boats, namely Packard 4M-2500, a rather older (early 20s)designand quite a bit larger(Packards designation for their version of the RR Merlin was V1650, the four figure numbers being the rounded out capacity of the engine in cubic inches). The only real resemblance between the 4M-2500 and the Merlin was they were both supercharged V12s of approx. 1500HP. I think Vosper did build approx 3 boats with Merlin engines but they were not a success and the engines proved very unreliable in the marine enviroment.

[Chris.]

As others have stated before me, I am really enjoying this thread. Some fascinating bits of information have surfaced.
I went back to reread the CB articles on Thorneycroft (some months back now) to go over their CMB (Coastal Motor Boat) designs for WW1.
The bit that I had forgotten was that Tom Thornycroft competed in the 1908 Olympics with a power boat of his own design, winning two Gold Medals. He used an engine of his own design too, 4 cylinders with bore of 4" and stroke of 7" !!!!!. This gives a swept volume of about 88 cu in per cylinder (i'm too lazy to convert to litres but it should be a bit over a litre per cyl)
But, power boat racing in the Olympics - what an interesting concept! I guess we will never see it again in our lifetimes, as it would not be nearly as TV friendly as swimming or athletics (depends on your point of view of course). Too bad, I am a sailboat bloke all the way through but am always open to new boat-based Olympic events.
Chris.

[ion barnes]

Not for sure but believe the Allison V12 were another copy of the Merlin. I was told by WW2 airframe mechanic, that for desert use the RR was the best choise because the clearances were closer and the sand had more difficulty wearing out engines.

I helped to tie up a boat (twenty-five yrs ago) and picked up a conversation with the owner. The vessel of about 40ft as I remember, had twin Pratt and Whitney gas turbines for power with adjustable pitch props!! That enough to start any conversation but when he gave me the grand tour, I noticed alot of unlimited hydroplane pictures and made the naive comment "So you like hydros" "Yeah, we built all those" Ooops says my mind $$$$$$$$ ! I felt stupid, but he took it in stride and I asked for his name. Chuck Lyford. Alright I know of him. "You flew the Miss Bardal P-51 in the Reno Air Races." "yeah" Real pleasant guy, and he continues to show me around and explain the vertues of the turbines. I got back to the hydros and specifically Miss Bardal and driver Bill Muncie as I had met him at a boat showsome years before.

Chuck went on to say that the Merlin in the hydro was used for devloping a stronger engine for the P-51. Further, the rated wartime hp was anything from about 1000hp to almost 1600hp at the end of the war. "We're getting about 3600hp reliably for about 2 hours tops, when we began to experiment with a replacement because they were getting hard to find parts."

That massive increase in power was evident when he saw a picture of himself exiting from a pylon and the nose of the plane was twisted by the torque enough that there was about seven inch variation from one exhaust stack set and the other. The prop they were swinging (oversized) countered by the engine trying to corkscrew the airframe the opposite way!!!. Good for almost 450mph in level flight at less that 100ft above the ground.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Allison V12 was not a Merlin; it was a different engine. The particular feature of the Merlin was that, being built like a brick outbuilding, and having been comprehensively de-bugged, (it is a Rolls-Royce!) it could take ever higher levels of supercharging, which is why the power output kept on climbing, through the war, and why it made such a difference in the P51.

I know from quite a different context that the same is said of the R-R RB211 turbofan; an airline which had these on its Tristars and more importantly its 747s said that it saved them a fortune, and allowed them to be one of the pioneers of very long range flight in full size 747s, because with the RB211 all they had to do was to bolt on sucessive upgrade kits, whilst their competitors with GE's and PW's had to buy four new engines each time a mod. came out.

There were an immense range of boats, built in wood, in huge numbers, for the Royal Navy, all the way from 16ft dinghies up to the "Ton" class minesweepers. The commonest survivors from WW2 are the "MFVs" -"motor fishing vessels" which were based on Scottish fishing boats and used for all the odd jobs in port. Air Sea Rescue launches, torpedo range launches (very fast; their job was to chase down practice torpedoes and observe their running) seaplane tenders (200 of those!) for getting aircrew to and from their Sunderlands, HDML's and many many more.

As to whether these boats were overbuilt, it is hard to generalise but perhaps many were. Construction standards for the peacetime Navy were very high; it was difficult to lower them.

I have the letters exchanged between the builder, the designer and the owner of my boat, in 1936-7.

The builder's excuse for taking more time and for price overruns is "The Navy are buying everything up" - he was mainly concerned with the cost of teak, copper and bronze. One wonders how long a war Their Lordships of the Admiralty were planning for!

[ 12-11-2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]