Double-paddle/rowing option?

[Peter Kess]

I am considering building a double paddle canoe that would also be adequate to drop in a sliding rowing seat. I realize that there would be a compromise in performance as a rowing craft,but after seeing the plan for the Millcreek 16.5, I was wondering if the Wee Rob or the Macgregor might accomodate a similar purpose. I especially like the idea of learning Outred's glue-lapstrake process. It seems like a great place to start if I continue to build larger craft.
Also, are there good plans for a sliding rowing seat? I've seen the ones in the Firefly plans, but I don't need the whole set of boat plans.

[Tom Dugan]

I think that any boat used for double paddle and rowing will inherently be a compromise in one or the other configurations. Double-paddle canoes tend to be somewhat tender (i.e. tippy) due to their narrow beam. I know the Macgregor is, and I'll assume the Wee Rob is too. Installing a sliding seat is going to raise your center of gravity and just make things worse. And I also think both the Macgregor and Wee Rob are a bit too small for rowing. Their beam is about 28", which is nice for paddling, but too narrow for rowing.

From the other end of the equation, I suppose it is possible to double paddle a narrow row boat, and here the Herreshoff Rowboat, as modified by John Gardner and shown in his "Building Classic Small Craft" (ISBN: 0070228647) comes to mind. This is a ~16', 36" beam boat which is canoe shaped. You might do some experimentation by borrowing a stock canoe in the 16' range and sit in it with a double-bladed paddle, then with a pair of oars, and see how it feels ergonomically. How it performs in the water is another problem entirely. 36" is a long way to reach with a double-bladed paddle.

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that there's no design which would give me satisfactory results. YMMV, of course. I finally decided to build a double-paddle canoe, and will follow up with a pulling/sailing boat. It seems like the compromises between those 2 modes are a lot less drastic than paddling/rowing.

Oh, and check out Glen-L's catalog (www.glenl.com) for sliding seat plans AND hardware kits. As I recall, the kit runs about $100, which is a lot cheaper than a mfg'ed seat. I also recall that the Ken Bassett boats as shown in the WB "30/40/50 Wooden Boats" (I can't remember which one)show sliding seat plans, using split PVC pipe as the track. Is the Firefly his?

Well, I guess the above is mostly my opinion, with a little actual data thrown in. I know I won't be the only one. http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

-T

[rbgarr]

I think Joel White's 20' Bangor Packet would be a good candidate for the row/paddle options.

[TomRobb]

CLC's sliding seat rower looks like their basic kayak hull with a longer cockpit.
Skinny competition/workout hulls are pretty narrow - similar to hot kayak hulls.
Maybe there's a workable compromise there.

[Andrew]

One problem is the length required to offset porpoising from a slilding seat rower. Maybe you should look at a sliding oar rower.

[DougWilde]

As one who has built and paddles Tom Hill Charlottes AND sold and rowed Martin Marine Alden sculls in Hawaii, perhaps I can bring some actual experience to this discussion.

The forte of small double paddle canoes, such as the Charlotte or Wee Rob, is exploration and creek crawling. Highly maneuverable and small, these boats beg to be taken into shallows, along shore, among tree stumps where all the interesting stuff can be found. The only reason to cross open water is to reach the other shore.

Sculls are built strictly for speed. Once you realize how fast you can go you rarely drop below that speed. Long length and tracking as if on rails are the order of the day and the exact opposite of the Wee Rob.

The only option is to build (at least) one of each. Each type is rather parsimonious of materials and could be built of first rate material for some hundreds of dollars (not counting the sliding seat and sculls). If Martin Marine still sells Feath-Oars, buy those. Compared to some of the name brands I've tried, these are much lighter and release much more easily.

Just one man's experience.

Doug Wilde

[Keith Wilson]

This is not really on the subject, but why do fast rowing boats always use a sliding seat rather than oarlocks that move? It seems that the complexity of the engineering is about equal for each. Is it just a function of racing rules? It would seem that a movable-oarlock arrangement would work much better for shorter craft, since the weight of the oarsman wouldn't cause the boat to pitch.

[Todd Bradshaw]

So that you can get much of your power from extending your legs. Your feet are braced and don't move. The seat moves away from your feet when it slides. If the oarlocks were made movable, the foot brace would need to go with it.

[TomRobb]

As I heard it the reason is the racing rules.
And I thought that the foot braces did move w/ the oarlocks. It does seem like a better engineering solution doesn't it?

[Andrew]

With sliding seat, your weight keeps the seat on the tracks with the sliding footrest/oarlocks you need a slightly more complicated race.

[Ian McColgin]

Tom's right.

The sliding lock is far more powerful as all the power goes into the oars and there is no porposing or having to overcome the rower's body's inertia. So the rules exclude them as they are too good.

With that line of thinking, I'm surprised that the rowing community even got around to sliding seats. Why not be really pure and keep to the old benches and greased leather shorts. . .

[Andrew]

Wow, splinters.

[Ian McColgin]

Think of Mel Gibson or Antonio Bandaras style buns with calouses. For the women, of course, Il sogno bagnato e veloce . . .

[LaMess]

Rangley lake?

[dadadata]

<<

CLC's sliding seat rower looks like their basic kayak hull with a longer cockpit.

Skinny competition/workout hulls are pretty narrow - similar to hot kayak hulls.

Maybe there's a workable compromise there.
>>

The Mill Creek 16.5 is a double. It's really a double-paddle canoe, not a kayak. It is also a sailing canoe for one or two people. I don't know of anyone who's put a sliding seat in one. Not that it could not be done, but I doubt anyone at CLC would encourage you.

The sliding-seat boats are the Annapolis Wherry (a lapstrake boat, very pretty) and the competition-style Oxford Shell. The Wherry can be set up for fixed-seat rowing.

The design problem is, as has been pointed out, different uses lead to boats with very different shapes and dimensions.

I think a Wee Rob or Macgregor would be overwhelmed by a sliding seat setup.

Speaking of which, Nathaniel Bishop in "Voyage of the Paper Canoe" rowed his large decked sailing canoe down the Atlantic Coast. He had fixed outriggers. He sailed some. He apparently never paddled with a double paddle.

[TomRobb]

Dada,
I know that CLC's shell isn't a kayak. To my jaundiced eye, however, the hull LOOKS like one of their kayak hulls. I had not supposed that anyone ought to put a sliding seat in a kayak. I merely daydreamed a possibility of a compromise. One untoward part of the compromise would be that the boat might be either be too short for efficient use of the sliding seat rig, or too long for comfortable paddling. Sure two boats would be more fun than one and more suited to their purpose.
And I'd be glad to hear what the difference IS between a double paddle canoe and a kayak beyond the obvious cockpit changes. C1 racing canoes LOOK exactly like kayaks to me, but then what do I know?

(sorry about the CAPS. I don't know how to make this critter do italics... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif)

[Andrew]

Actually CLC says that you CAN add sliding seat rower to the Millcreek 16.

"The Mill Creek 16.5 is enormously popular because it can be used in so many ways. Not only can you paddle it as a single or a double, but you can sail it, add a sliding-seat rowing unit, or even adapt an electric outboard. The Mill Creek 16.5's stability will reassure the most nervous paddlers, while the low freeboard and light weight yield better speed and handling in wind than the average canoe. There's enough capacity for camping gear (with optional deck hatches), and the boat can be easily trimmed by sliding the seats fore and aft on their mounts."

[Todd Bradshaw]

Tom,
Other than for racing classes, the distinction between canoes and kayaks is pretty blurry. For touring boats, (like many of the typical, semi-decked solo boats) it's pretty much up to whatever the designer wants to call it. A small double-paddle canoe is likely to be more open and a bit wider than what most people would consider a real kayak, but there are no rules and many of the beamy little touring boats labeled kayaks these days are far from anything that the Inuits ever paddled.

In every racing class that I can think of, a canoe (like a C-1 slalom boat, for example) is propelled by a single blade from a kneeling position - knees bent, feet under your butt. A K-1 is paddled with a double blade from a seated position with your feet out in front of you. Minimum allowed beam of the C-1's used to be about 3" wider than that of the K-1's, but I haven't paddled racing boats in a while and that may have changed.

There also used to be a rule that the stems on C-1's and C-2's had to be higher than the middle of the boat. This was supposed to preserve the traditional shape of the Canadian canoe, even on decked boats, keeping them from looking like kayaks with little pointy ends. This rule was done away with when low-volume boats that could sneak their ends under slalom gates came into favor.

As far as I know, the other C-1 racing classes, like marathon boats, still require kneeling and single blades, even though you could probably paddle most marathon C-1's seated, with a double paddle if you really wanted to.




[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 08-09-2001).]

[dadadata]

<<
And I'd be glad to hear what the difference IS between a double paddle canoe and a kayak beyond the obvious cockpit changes. C1 racing canoes LOOK exactly like kayaks to me, but then what do I know?
>>

Go to www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata (http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata)

scroll down

click on "Canoe Sailing Resources"

To make a long story short, what has been meant by "kayak" has changed ever since MacGregor popularized the boat type ca 1860.

However, racing aside, a canoe with 24 inch beam would be considered very narrow and a kayak with 30 inch beam would be considered exceptionally fat.

Cockpit size differs. Coamings differ. Hull shapes, in general, differ. A "double paddle canoe" is a description of a boat that takes off more from the types that were around in 1880 or 1910, than the types today which are propelled with double paddles. I hope this is clear enough <chuckle>.

[dadadata]

<<
The Mill Creek 16.5 is enormously popular because it can be used in so many ways. Not only can you paddle it as a single or a double, but you can sail it, add a sliding-seat rowing unit, or even adapt an electric outboard.
>>

Well goll-daaang. So it does. So someone must have built a kit and adapted it for rowing.

I've run one with a trolling motor and under sail so I can vouch for that.

[TomRobb]

QED http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif