Knud Reimers/ Tumlaren

[wgstephens]

Are plans of Tumlaren and stol-Tumlaren available ? The address from Wooden Boat 19 does not seem to exist anymore. What I have read about these designs seems to be positive. and or swedish. Any help would be appreciated, or if you are a blond swedish female... Thanks Bill ( no relation) Stephens billinind@comcast.net any info or comments on these boats would be appreciated also

[N. Scheuer]

I know only two things about "Tums".

First, the Columbia yacht Race from Chicago, to Michigan City, to St Joseph, and return would always have a few Tums representing their smallest class.

Second, their used to be a Tum moored in the Michigan City Harbor which was sailed by a true Seaman. I only met him once, and that while outbound to Chicago in my Dovekie, PIL-PEL.

Moby Nick

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Adlard Coles, author of "Heavy Weather Sailing" had two Tumlare boats, "Zara" and "Coho I" In the 35 year old reprint that I have of HWS, he speaks quite highly of both boats, and certainly put them through their paces. Zara was 21.8 feet on the WL and Coho was 32 feet OA, a Knud design with a canoe stern. Coho I won the Transatlantic race of 1950. ;) She was built by A.H Moody and Son at Bursledon.

I've personally always loved Reimers designs and their typically high aspect sail plans. Coles did get pooped for the first time in Zara,(in a force 7)but still liked her for her quick response and feather light helm.

[Aramas]

Tumlarens are essentially double-ended Dragons. They're racing boats, although some are modified cruising versions, with a larger cabin and self-draining cockpit. Adlard Coles liked his Tumlare, but also described her as being 'as wet as a half-tide rock'. They're lovely bay crusiers, and exciting coastal cruisers for aspiring submariners.

The original design had steel frames, which is something well worth avoiding.

Second hand Tumlaren are very cheap (~$10kUSD in excellent condition) in the US and Australia (there's a small fleet at RMYS in Melbourne), but I recently saw some for sale in the UK for around 30k Euros - search for Tumlare (no 'n' in the UK for some reason) here (http://ybw.yachtworld.com/). Just ignore the othet fields and put 'tumlare' in the manufacturer field. God only knows why they're supposedly worth four times as much in the UK as anywhere else.

Here are some links:
Some articles and photos, (http://www.penofin.com/tumlaren_pictures.shtml) and a few more pics. (http://home.san.rr.com/pbeach/tumlaren.html)

Do a search for more information, using both 'tumlaren' and 'tumlare'. Just be sure to use Yahoo, since Google has gone completely insane and has become essentially useless. It's not a search engine anymore - it's an advertising engine.

[ 08-13-2005, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[wgstephens]

I have read that the tumlarens are wet. Is this due to low freeboard,narrow width, low volume in the bow, or a combination of all or another reason? I wondered if the stol-tumlaren had the same characteristics. Is the dragon wet also? I have read the tend to pound.

[Chris.]

Bill,
all of Knud Reimers drawings were bequeathed to the Swedish National Maritime Museum in Stockholm.
Stockholm Maritime Museum (http://www.sjohistoriska.nu/Sjohistoriska%20museet/Om.aspx)

This site's home page comes up in Swedish but there is an English language option for those of us whose knowledge of the Swedish language is limited to words like Volvo, Saab and smorgasbord.

If you contact them, they are very helpful, and copies of plans can be bought i believe.

Yes, they are wet boats for all the reasons you mention, as are dragons and the sq metre class boats. On another aspect, i have found that they have a fairly small cockpit - you tend to wear them rather than sit in them. depending on your size and the number of people you want to sail with you might find the cockpit to be a limiting feature. That boat Egret in one of the links is the larger Stor Tumlaren with a much more useful cocklpit.
Cheers,
Chris.

[wgstephens]

Thanks Chris I went to the museum site, and will contact them. Bill

[lagspiller]

The Tumlaren is not based on a Dragon. It is derived from the Square Meter.
Reimers went on to design the Tumlaren class in 1933 to marry the Koster boat, longish and narrow, with the speed potential of a Scandinavian skerry cruiser. Skerry cruiser (an inaccurate translation of "skjaergaardskrysser" is another name for the Square Meter classes.
Reimers, a Dane, worked on square meters in Sweden prior to designing the Tumlaren. He wanted to make a yacht that was one-design and with a bit more room than the square meters.
Here is a nice link to some information in english.

Egret (http://www.penofin.com/tumlaren_egret.shtml)
Tumlare, btw, is Swedish for dolphin. "Stor" means "big".

[Norske3]

http://www.penofin.com/images/t-gallery1big.jpg

[wgstephens]

I noticed that the stol-tumlaren has a toe rail, and the tumlaten does not. does a toe rail help at all in keeping down spray. The 22 sq meters have brite work decks, which are beautiful but I would guess slick, what about deck work on the varnished decks? Is it possible to have non skid on brite decks? Do you have to choose between seeing a beautiful wood strip deck or a serviceable walking surface?

[wgstephens]

What is the drawbacks of the tumlaren? Is it the wet sailing and the low headroom inside? If there was more freeboard would that solve those issues? If there was more freeboard would the design resemble the designs of the american of that time period? But that brings up the issue of the double end. The scandinavian countries seem to favor them. What I have read suggests they are easier to build. Is the trade off in reserve floatation vs eddys behind a transom a regional preference?

[Aramas]

Originally posted by lagspiller:
The Tumlaren is not based on a Dragon. It is derived from the Square Meter.
I didn't say it was based on the Dragon. Look at a Tumlaren and Dragon side by side when hauled out, and apart from the stern they are very similar boats. They're about the same size and layout, and similarly rigged - much moreso than the square metre boats.

[martin schulz]

Originally posted by Aramas:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lagspiller:
The Tumlaren is not based on a Dragon. It is derived from the Square Meter.
I didn't say it was based on the Dragon. Look at a Tumlaren and Dragon side by side when hauled out, and apart from the stern they are very similar boats. They're about the same size and layout, and similarly rigged - much moreso than the square metre boats.</font>[/QUOTE]I thought the Tumlaren design was based on skerry-cruisers :confused:

[WWheeler]

Tumlarens? You can buy this one. See www.woodwindyachts.com. (http://www.woodwindyachts.com.) Hint: they do the restoration at shop prices.

Another reason they're wet is that the sheer is dead flat, so you'll be taking breaking waves over the bow. Like all of the square metre classes, these boats were designed to race. If you want to cruise, another design is suggested.

PS there was a Tumlaren fleet in Toronto at one time, built in the 30's by JJ Taylor. Of that fleet, I know that there is: 1 currently sailing in Port Hope Ontario, 1 at Woodwind, and 1 is in my barn (restoration in progress). I think there was also a fleet in Australia.

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/tumlaren3.jpg

[ 08-16-2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[lagspiller]

I thought the Tumlaren design was based on skerry-cruisers It is.
Skerry cruiser, square meter yacht, skjaergaardskrysser... different names for the the same boats. The original name, Skjaergaardskrysser, means a "krysser" for the "skjaergaard" ... an archipelago or area dotted with "skjaer"... or in English, "skerries" (small rocky islands).

Don't confuse them with Meter boats or International Rule boats like the Dragon or IOD. Even if SOME of the "Skerry cruisers" will resemble boats built to other rules. It would be closer to call the Tumlaren a "one-design skerry cruiser".

(I really hate the translation from "krysser" to "cruiser". It gives absolutely the wrong connotation. "Krysser" is about tacking high into the wind. Not Cruising.
I prefer "Skerry Cutter".)

[ 08-16-2005, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: lagspiller ]

[Dan McCosh]

Two friends had Tumlarens, one a 27 ft. the other 36 ft. The smaller one was great looking, but had a small interior that made a Folkboat look huge. The cockpit barely held two, and that would weigh it down due to the lack of boyancy aft. The larger boat was a powerful boat upwind, very stiff and handled heavy seas well. It also was cramped below, having little headroom and a galley accessible only on your knees. I think they both were intended mainly for racing.

[Jeremy Burnett]

Baum and Konig the Hamburg brokers have a good looking English built one on their list at present.Recently restored,pitch pine planked.They are great boats I always think when you look down the inside it looks about the size of a coffin but with ribs.Perhaps not! Adlard Coles descriptions of sailing Cohoe transatlantic and in the Bermuda race are classics of how ocean racing used to be.

[Lucky Luke]

Tumlarens (and not "tums" :rolleyes: )are essentially "double ended dragons" :confused: . There is a vague resemblance form some angles...besides that...????
Anyway, cuuuuuuute boats they are, and don't they sail!

Yes, a Folkbat's interior looks huge in comparison, and that is why French N. Architect Maurice Amiet did design the "Solveig", which is inspired by both. A few of these boats were built by my "master", Felix Silvestro, in Nice. I was always in love for the Solveig "Peer Gynt". You can see the "compromise" on these pics.
http://www.webmer.com/peer%20Gynt.jpg http://www.webmer.com/solv005b.jpg

Since Amiet wanted a live-aboard boat, and worked out a wonderful compromise in his design, some (and I am one of these) consider a "sacrilege" to have transformed his other Solveig into....well, a cute little thing, for sure.
http://www.classicmarine.fr/occasions/plan-amiet/amiet6.jpg
http://www.classicmarine.fr/occasions/plan-amiet/amiet5.jpg

[ 08-18-2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

[Lucky Luke]

Originally posted by lagspiller:
Skjaergaardskrysserggggrglp!..makes Polish sound easy!
Well, thank you for the lesson, lagspiller ;)

[Aramas]

Yes, you're right. A Tumlaren is exactly like a Knud Reimers 22sq metre - well, apart from an extra three friggin metres of overhang tongue.gif

Dragons are far more like skerry cruisers than the Tumlaren is. I really don't get it. How can anyone deny the similarity between the Tumlaren and the Dragon? Has everyone seen the original Dragon before the stripped-down, cabinless racers became de rigeur? Funnily enough, a Stor Dragon is also much like a Stor Tumlaren smile.gif

[lagspiller]

There seem to be two points you are missing...

A 22 square meter is anywhere from 24' to somewhere around 42'. Mine is 32'. That is exactly the idea of the rule... stipulate sail area and let the designer figure out how to make the best hull. Obviously, a 24' 22 square meter will not have the same overhangs as a 42' boat.

The other point is that the tumlaren WAS developed with referance to the square meter and the Swedish Koster yacht. That is simply a historic fact. The Dragon was not in the picture AT ALL. Wrong country, wrong rule, wrong time.

Both Reimers and Uffa Fox toyed with square meters and canoe sterns. My 22 sq.m. is a Johan Anker design. He also designed the Dragon....
So when you had mention something about the Dragon being like a Sq.Meter, then the ancestry is nearer the mark. But then, we can also say that Anker & Jensen worked together for years, and that Jensen's later Knarr class is also similar to the Sq.Meter. And Fox's Udell is simply a locked, one-design Sq.Meter. Herreshoff was also an admirer and dabbler with Sq.Meters.

Hmmm... seems the Sq.Meter is a pivotal boat in yacht design history.

[ 08-22-2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: lagspiller ]

[ingo]

Skerrycruisers and other sailing yachts that have the sailing areas as a main factor are light deplacement boats.

International rule yachts (metre-classes) are about twice the deplacement of skerrycruisers - but have nearly the same speed at the same length...

IOD, Dragon and tumlare are one design classes that are not directly connected to measurement formulas. IODs and Dragons are definetly not light deplacement yachts and the Tumlare is a little between. Skerrycruisers have much less deplacement at the same sailing area.

[Woodenhead]

I am after any information on the SOLVEIG design by Maurice Amiet and any yachts of this type.

My yacht for the last 18 years is, I believe a, Solvieg and would love to find how to obtain some further information, plans or owners of others to compare notes with.

[Wiley Baggins]

There are two references to the designer in the magazine linked below - I don't know if the articles cover the type of yacht you have.

Original Site - http://journaux-anciens.chapitre.com/YACHT/1955.html

English Translation - http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://journaux-anciens.chapitre.com/YACHT/1955.html&ei=7ByfSaeUI9G3tweuu8iTDQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=8&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSOLVEIG%2BMaurice%2BAmiet%26hl%3Den

[kazeai1969]

I love this boat and had a look at the one at Woodwind last year....
Ken won't sell it unless you are willing to have him properly restore it (he suggested somewhere "North" of C$100,000 when I asked him.....) They do amazing work and you'd have an incredible boat...
I was in touch with the museum last summer - they are more than willing to help with copies of the plans.

[outofthenorm]

I sailed as crew on Valhalla in the 70's. She was a true thoroughbred - responsive, fast, wet and absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. Rolled like mad down wind, but a witch to windward. If I win the $48 million 6/49 lottery tonight, she's on the list. Ken would do a fine job on the resto.

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/tumlaren3.jpg

[lagspiller]

Just curious... that stripe with the arrowhead is a signature Johan Anker mark. He used gold colour instead of white and probably drew the line another yard forward, but it makes me wonder anyway. Which yard built that boat? Any idea?

[Tumzara]

I have a set of drawings for the Stor Tumlaren Though they are on A3 and have been photocopied a few times and are a little hard to read. I think I can get hold of can also get hold of the drawings for a 27' Tumlare. If anyone wants some copies send me a message.
Also a photo of one of the local boats.http://classic-yacht.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/zephyr02.jpg

[rufustr]

This is a photo I took of a Tumlaren at the Wooden Boat Festival in Hobart in 2007.

I believe she sold for A $20000.00 recently in Sydney.

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/rufustr/WBSHOBART2007311.jpg

[Peter Plones]

There's a nice one for sale in the Netherlands, on the picture it seems to be in good condition. Varnished hull, b.y. 1954, restored in 2005, hull of oregon pine on hardwood (not specified), mainsail, jib, stormjib and spinaker, Yamaha 4 hp outboard. Asking price 17.500 euros. No website, just an e-mail adres (send PM, no relation with the owner)

[Amherst Island]

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss139/outspan/KRYSSA2.jpg?t=1236205654

There is one original Tumlare (out of 12 built in 1938) left on Lake Ontario, and we are her lucky owners. Kryssa has been wonderfully cared for and sailed for every one of her 70 years. She still looks gorgeous and sails like a dream, especially upwind.

[py]

I owned a Tumlaren for a few years, perhaps 20 years ago now. Lovely boat. very small-not really a cruising boat at all, although my wife and I honeymooned on her. Wet yes, but extraordinarily seaworthy too. I got caught out in a nasty nasty storm sailing from Adelaide (South Australia) round to Port Lincoln. Its around 200nm, and once you are out from Kangaroo Island the next thing South is Antarctica. We had 80knt winds and 18 metre seas-as recorded by the weather bureau. We laid ahull for about 12 hours with the anchor out as a drougue. Very scary, and took a couple of green waves into the cockpit (which is not self draining), but we survived well. They are delightful to sail perfectly balanced and just sweet. Gorgeous too. Mine was huon pine with laid beech decks. And a little blaxland pup to push her along when there's less than 2knts of wind.

[Amherst Island]

We are hoping to get a glimpse of the Tumlare fleet in Melbourne later this year when we visit that area. We figure we are probably the luckiest people on the Great Lakes - I sailed on a Tum as a child and couldn't believe my good fortune when we came back to this area to find Kryssa, the only one left on the water for sale 8 years ago. Kryssa is mahogany on oak, with a tiny Kermath 5-hp engine for when the wind on Lake Ontario dies (which it does). Nothing like your amazing experience, just lots of lovely sailing - absolute heaven for 6 months of the year.

[Stephen]

Sadly, here is a Tumlare that will never see the water again.
Last year it was sold to a guy who claimed he was keen to get her back in tip-top shape again. LIAR! A month later he had cut it length-wise for use as signage on a property he is developing on the main street of town.
It was such a good candidate for restoration too. :(
http://www.pilotcutter.ca/images/hosting/tum1.JPG

http://www.pilotcutter.ca/images/hosting/tum2.JPG

[David Charlwood]

May I introduce myself as David Charlwood and I currently reside in New Zealand. I know a little about Thirty Square Metre yachts having owned two (30K7 HAXAN and 30S213 NELLY) and having previously been the Hon. Secretary of the British 30 Square Metre Association. For some time I have been trying to purchase a Tumlaren, but to no avail. If anybody knows of a good example then I would much appreciate being contacted.
Many thanks.
David Charlwood.
wdc37@xtra.co.nz

[Clive P]

PLEASE. The design is a Tumlare .Plural is Tumlaren. The big one is a Stor Tumlare.
They and the Dragon and the Squ mtrs and the Skerry racers were all designed for a tideless sea. Wind on tide plus low freeboard equals wet sailing.

[lagspiller]

It helps to know what you are talking about I guess.

[Jay Greer]

I believe Uffa Fox has several pages of line and rigging drawings devoted to them in his Second Book.
Jay

[BarnacleGrim]

Isn't it named after the animal, porpoise?

Wouldn't then the design be Tumlaren ("the porpoise") and the boats themselves be just Tumlare ("a porpoise, many porpoises") :confused: