Beautiful Daysailer

[SchoonerDreamin]

I recently posted a forum about N.G. Herreshoffs Alerion for a trailerable sailboat....after reviewing my means and budget I think this would be an unachievable goal........

I was wondering if you all could help me find a design, it has to be able to be built by me.....be trailered to the water everytime it is used and be pulled by a 1/2 ton truck, I am looking for something with timeless beauty like the Alerion, so if you could post what you think is the most beautiful daysailer to your eye as long as it meets these requirements, it may help me in finding a design I fall in love with other than the Alerion

Thank you in advance as I have always gotten great advice on this board

[Wiley Baggins]

I'm not sure if QUITSA or any of Nat Banjamin's designs are available to home builders, but she is a pretty boat...if you like that sort of thing. ;) Scroll down through the eye-candy in the link below for a peek.

Gannon & Benjamin Boat Design Gallery (http://www.gannonandbenjamin.com/designs.php#)

Edited to add: BELLA may also be of interest.

[ 11-29-2005, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Wiley Baggins ]

[StevenBauer]

Have you been up to Mystic Seaport to see Alerion? Everytime I go there I end up standing in front of her for the longest time. :D
Do you have the Joel White book?
Another beautiful daysailer is the Arey's Pond 18 Daysailer but I don't think they sell plans:

http://www.areyspondboatyard.com/images/apbydaysailer12.jpg

www.areyspondboatyard.com/apbydaysailer.html (http://www.areyspondboatyard.com/apbydaysailer.html)

Steven

[SchoonerDreamin]

No I have never Alerion in anything but pictures.

I like the looks of both those boats but I need something I can build myself and stretch the expense out as much as possible.

I really like the lines of the Arey's Pond 18

[Keith Wilson]

A couple of ideas: Albert Strange’s Wenda canoe yawl is trailerable, although with some difficulty IMHO – 4000# is awfully big for pleasant trailering – but is as beautiful as anything that ever floated. You can get plans from the Wooden Boat store.

http://www.yachtbau.cz/klassiker/canoe_yawl/foto1.jpg

Joel White’s Flatfish is smaller, at 3100#. It’s a centerboard version of the Herreshoff Fish class boats. Here‘s a web site. (http://www.chipboat.com/flatfish.html)

http://www.chipboat.com/nina6.jpg

Another spectacular Joel White design is currently produced in fiberglass by Edy and Duff, (http://www.sakonnet23.com/sakonnett23_first_encounter.html) but you can also get plans for wooden construction from WB. It’s a much more modern design, probably significantly faster than any of the others, but still gorgeous. It’s lighter and would be fairly easy to trailer.

http://www.sakonnet23.com/images/sakonnet_2_small.jpg

http://www.sakonnet23.com/images/sakonnet_3_small.jpg

[SchoonerDreamin]

I'm sure I'll catch hell for this among others, but I have never been particullarly fond of the double ended look, something doesnt catch my eye about that.

[Meerkat]

Golant Gaffer. I have plans available... ;)

[Thorne]

Not like double-enders -- SACRILEGE!

;- )

If you are considering a non-ballasted (or lightly ballasted) daysailor, the field opens WAY up -- and these are much nicer to launch and recover from ramps!

Would the Penobscot 14' or 17' do? Great boats for the semi-novice builder by all accounts, and the designer is very helpful.

http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis2.html

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/weelass/ free.cfm (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/weelass/free.cfm)

Here's a great site to shop for boat plans -- check out the Ian Oughtred designs...the Gannet and Fulmar are roughly comperable to the PB 14 & 17.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/oughtred/gannet2.jpg

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/designers.p hp (http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/designers.php)

And last but not least, John Welsford's designs -
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/index.htm

[ 11-29-2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[Keith Wilson]

Oh, Jeez, how could I have forgotten the Haven 12-1/2? It's a centerboard version of the Herreshoff 12-1/2 one of the nicest small boats ever designed. It's not particularly easy to build, but a strip-planked or cold-molded version (or even ply lapstrake) would be eminently trailerable and a delight to sail.

http://www.havensailboats.com/images/photo1.jpg

If you don't like double-enders there's also a version of Joel White's 23-footer with a transom. It should be marginally faster and considerably easier to build; that lovely (IMO) stern would be hard to plank, and if you like the looks, so much the better.

[ 11-29-2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Jim Budde]

ya know, thar's timeless beauty and then thar's timeless beauty ...

I think too often we respond to requests like this without first asking what's your level of skill, both in the shop and on the water and what do you want to do with that thar beauty.

If you want art, build a Herreshoff. Take the time (perhaps years), learn the skills (if needed) and spend the money (perhaps lots). If , however, you want to get out on the water with friends and family, then I'd suggest there's timeless beauty in almost any wooden boat you choose to build ... beauty in the smiles and the laughter of your cargo as you slip away from shore for that first grand adventure

So, Schooner Dreamin .. tell us how you define timeless beauty and then perhaps the suggestions
might be more appropriate.

[Billy Bones]

Absolutely anything by Paul Gartside. His # 128, for example, is an easily built 16' boat which boasts a building time of only 500 hrs, which should be achievable by a rank amateur with a nose-to-the-grindstone outlook. It is glued-lap plywood which is usually inexpensive to build, and happily withstands drysailing. Additionally he is very nice to deal with--by far the nicest of the few designers alive who I've dealt with--and makes himself quite accessible for answering questions across the spectrum of complexity.

[Venchka]

Amen, Brother Billy Bones! Paul doesn't do bad boats. Heck of a pleasant guy!

What is wrong with double-enders? Some of us are rather partial to them. Some folks even say they are easier to build than transom sterned boats.

Add Iain Oughtred to the list of designers who know how to produce a sweet set of lines.

Wayne
Consumed by doubleenderitis in Texas. :D

[StevenBauer]

A great time to come up and visit Alerion would be the first weekend in June when Mystic Seaport hosts the John Gardner Small Craft Workshop Weekend. More here (http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=C9BDB2EA-EFD0-9CD9-E015D418B3650B55)

Steven

[SchoonerDreamin]

Thanks for all the great replies, any one know of something with great lines like these boats, but with a cabin for overnighting or maybe a weekend trip and still be trailerable? I like the Haven 12 1/2 and have studied this design before, even if it is just a copy ;)

I love all of Nat Herreshoffs boats, the man just had an eye for beauty.....maybe I am crazy but I am still dreaming of Alerion

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

A bit bigger, but apparently still trailerable (and a schooner!): http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/Aruna_33.gif

And the MacNaughton Website (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/aruna_33.htm)

[Thorne]

Not to rain on the schooner parade, but how many of these traditional deep-keeled or fin/bulb keeled boats do youse guys think are actually trailered and ramp-launched **every time they are used**?

Classic lines and looks are one thing, hauling the durn thing around on bumpy roads, launching and retrieving on public ramps, and setting up rigging in the ramp lot are another thing entirely.

I'm not suggesting that any particular dreams be given up, but 'reality' (such as it is) needs to be dealt with at some point if said dreams will ever be realized.

Personally I have found that the launching abilities of a 1/2 ton pickup can be somewhat limited, and at a certain point 4x4 is needed to avoid expensive clutch damage.

Don't know what that weight limit might be for all trucks, but my personal checkbook says it comes in at around a ton for the boat -- anything more than that will smoke a 2x4 clutch when retrieving on a wet ramp.

So, if the truck and ramp-launching are a given (and that ain't necessarily so, sling launches are possible at many marinas), then I'd strongly suggest that the top weight limit for the boat be 2500 lbs or so - the trailer will weigh a bit too, remember.

With that rough limit in mind, a lot of the suggested boats will still work out just fine -- but some of the larger and deeper-keeled boats won't.

Here are some of my friends swimming the trailer out to a wooden boat with only a shallow keel -

http://www.luckhardt.com/swim-launch.jpg

[ 11-30-2005, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[SchoonerDreamin]

I have always said a 3'-6" draft boat is not trailerable, and I have left my schooner dreams on the shelf until I can justify a boat I can afford to build and leave in the Chesapeake all year long and live aboard.......I like the Haven 12 1/2 but am looking for something with a cabin and maybe a bit more length but with the same timeless lines, perhaps it is a dream boat, something that doesnt exsist......

[Venchka]

Here you go.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Spartan2-110.jpg
Paul Gartside's "Spartan" (http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail2.php#spartan)

Wayne
Pondering the plans for Spartan in Texas. :D

[SchoonerDreamin]

I think I am in love with Scruffie Marine's Secret and Scintilla Voyager, they sell precut kits and they include epoxy and all parts needed along with rigging kits, anyone know of anyone how has built these boats? or offer input on the design. I like the Secret in Cruising form and and the voyager in cruising form. And would have to opt for the salt Gaff Cutter rig on both, I think I have found my dream boat, my next boat.

Secret
http://www.scruffie.com/webgallery/secret_webgallery/images/Secret%2020-2.jpg
Secret Specs (http://www.scruffie.com/secret.htm)

Voyager Full Cabin
http://www.scruffie.com/graphics/rought/scintilla_cabin_draw.gif
Voyager Specs (http://www.scruffie.com/scintilla2.htm)

[Venchka]

and now, for something completely different. Simple. Easy to build. Totally trailerable.

Oops, the stern is pointy.

http://www.sredmond.com/boat_images/ElvSailpl_sm.jpg

Steve Redmond's ELVER.

Steve Redmond Plans (http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm)

Enjoy.

Wayne
In Texas. :D

[JimD]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SchoonerDreamin:
[QB]
Secret
http://www.scruffie.com/webgallery/secret_webgallery/images/Secret%2020-2.jpg
Secret Specs (http://www.scruffie.com/secret.htm)

Secret is a real beauty. If you're considering something a little smaller there's Paul Fisher's 17.5' Evening Swan. Boxier and not quite so graceful but very roomy inside for the length and easy to build:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p792dbd87cb9b483ad2d87c28873f1807/f13e8b9c.jpg

[Carlsboats]

Steve, like your idea of rounding up some forumites in June in Mystic. I sure hope to be on hand for that.
And you do remember, do you not, that you and family have standing invite to stay at my place in Mystic, which is less than a mile from the Seaport museum? I could probably handle a total of a half dozen guests, but I wanr all comers: I'm no cook, no like tha Bauer fellow.
Still trying to figure out how to mail some pic to the Forum, so you guys can see the new Block Island 19 on shore and in action. Carl

[Carlsboats]

Steve, like your idea of rounding up some forumites in June in Mystic. I sure hope to be on hand for that.
And you do remember, do you not, that you and family have standing invite to stay at my place in Mystic, which is less than a mile from the Seaport museum? I could probably handle a total of a half dozen guests, but I wanr all comers: I'm no cook, no like tha Bauer fellow.
Still trying to figure out how to mail some pic to the Forum, so you guys can see the new Block Island 19 on shore and in action. Carl

[StevenBauer]

Carl, let's plan on a Mystic gatering. I'll even help with the cooking. smile.gif How many forumites do you think we could talk into coming to the JGSCWW? Joe could bring either Dove or his catboat. I'll make sure Gavin's faering will be finished. Who else is up for this? Thad always goes, who else?

Carl, if you e-mail your BI 19 pics to me I'll post them here. That was fun reading the article in the BI Times. :D Send as many pics as you want, I've got a cable modem. :D

Steven

[StevenBauer]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. smile.gif SD these latest few boats aren't really daysailers. since your a Cap'n Nat fan have you seen the articles and threads about his own daysailer Coquina? Now that's a daysailer!

Steven

[Steve Paskey]

What about Romilly?

ROMILLY (http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/romillyspv.html)

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/images/romspv/roms11.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by StevenBauer:
Carl, let's plan on a Mystic gatering. I'll even help with the cooking. smile.gif How many forumites do you think we could talk into coming to the JGSCWW? Joe could bring either Dove or his catboat. I'll make sure Gavin's faering will be finished. Who else is up for this? Thad always goes, who else?

StevenI'm up for it. Keep me in mind guys. Ahhhhh but what boat to bring Dove all shinny and fixed up or the new catboat, decisions decisions :D

[Ed Armstrong]

SchoonerDreamin,

Don't give up on the Herreshoff designs! You might consider a cold-molded FlatFish with a cuddy cabin ala Felicity:
http://www.vsp.cape.com/~whmsi/felicity.jpg

or a fuller cabin like the Herreshoff Marlin, which is a Fish with a bigger cabin:

http://www.herreshoff.org/images/oned_1421big.gif

If you are looking to reduce weight, you could have the Flatfish redesigned for cold-molding to reduce framing. I had a quote from the Brooklyn Boat Yard Design for about $2700 to do just that. That's a bit out of my price range right now, but is not a lot of money. I regularly trailer and launch a 2000#, 2'7" draft sloop and while it takes a bit more work than a shallow draft boat, it can be done (at least on the lake on which I sail).

[Billy Bones]

Was that $2700 for the design work to render flatfish in coldmolded construction? I ask because Chuck Paine already did that for flatfish and calls it Pisces, which are being built by somebody advertising in WB--don't recall who just now. Whether either designer or builder would part with plans to a one-off builder is another question entirely.

[DougWilde]

He's going to trailer this boat and a lot of what has been proposed will require a great deal of set-up time. And that becomes quite a hassle after a while.

I propose ACTIVE III at 16'.

http://dbwilde.home.comcast.net/BoatScans/ActiveIIIa.jpg

IIRC, this is a dory type hull, should rig quickly and have enough strings to pull to keep everyone well employed.

Sorry about the quality of the scan. From the Ideal Series.

Doug Wilde

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Active III - AKA Dove ;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid162/p472008962535c816b19a69a610348962/f4be6265.jpg

[StevenBauer]

Any progress pics? :D

Steven

[AlanL]

Ever considered a Hartley?

Great trailer boats and there've thousands of them built over the years. Good for families, over nighting, day tripping and there are lots of sizes too.

Design is a little old fashioned I guess, but they do have a certain charm about them.

Hartley boat plans here. (http://www.hartley-boats.com/)

Alan

[ 11-30-2005, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: AlanL ]

[FG]

Trailerable to me means easy to step mast. Got to make the rig not take an hour to set up. I got the sunfish out a lot more than other boats because of the easy set up. More complex set is more time off the water. With trailer boats, the less set up time, the more use.

[YMT]

Day Sailing anyone? http://www.tantonyachts.com/896p3.JPG

[Tom Lathrop]

Schooner,

Your first problem is that you asked for a boat with the look and style and similar accomodation of an Alerion in a shorter, lighter, shallow draft boat that is easily trailerable with a 1/2 ton vehicle. Tough list.

Alerion gets its style from the long overhangs, low freeboard, tall rig, low coachroof and the designer's ability to integrate those into a beautiful whole. There are several outfits that are selling large "copies" of that daysailer style for big bucks these days but no smaller ones that I know of.

It ain't gonna happen in anything with reasonable accomodations. Even the Alerion is not generous with that. Several of the offers by other posters are very nice boats but real accomodation with the look you want is just not there. You are going to have to take a serious look at your wish list and decide what is most important.

I sailed in company with a friend's Alerion yesterday and it was beautiful on the water, even if it was behind my little, much less good looking and much less pedigreed, f*^&%ss 22 footer.

[maa. melee]

COOT (http://home.insightbb.com/~polysail1/images/coot.htm)

http://www.dngoodchild.com/5594.jpg

[ 12-01-2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: maa. melee ]

[Ed Armstrong]

Billy Bones,

That was $2700 to redesign the Flatfish for cold-molded construction. I believe that the Pisces is a Fish, not a Flatfish, with correspondingly greater draft, but I could be wrong. Anyways, when I was seriously drooling over the Fish design, after reading that article in WB a couple of months back on the Herreshoff hollow-bow designs, I inquired about the Pisces drawings from Chuck Paine design. I was told that they were willing to sell them, but I had to get the okay from the Classic Boat Shop, who commissioned the design work, and it would still cost $2800 for a set of the plans.

Regarding trailering & stepping the mast, I agree that bigger is not better in this regard, but it seems to me that with the shorter spars on a gaff rig, combined with a hollow mast, a Flatfish would be trailerable and could probably be set up in under 45 minutes. Albeit, it won't be as easy as a shallow-draft, under 20-footer, but it may be worth it for the sailing qualities of something like a Herreshoff Fish. It's certainly not an easy decision though, and one that I'm still struggling with. Fortunately, my small children won't be old enough for another couple of years for me to even contemplate having the time to build something like this smile.gif . In the meantime, I'm working on a 10' Acorn dinghy, which I can take out when I don't feel like rigging my larger sloop.

Ed

[DougWilde]

Joe,

Comments on how DOVE sails and other handling characteristics?

Doug Wilde

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by DougWilde:
Joe,

Comments on how DOVE sails and other handling characteristics?

Doug WildeI'll let you know this spring. I'm actually hoping to compare the handling and sailing characteristics between Dove and the Catboat. I promise to report back..... with photos of course ;) :D

[YMT]

"Summer Afternoon". 22'7" sharpie schooner.
Beam 6'2"; Draft 17" http://brad.smugmug.com/photos/36961087-M.jpg

[Carlsboats]

What some of you are talking about is pretty much what I have done with the Block Island 19 -- a slightly smaller hull than the Flatfish (19' LOA vs. 20'-6"), composite wood construction, hollow mast with gaff rig, shallow draft (2'). Came out much lighter than a Fish or Flatfish --all up, the boat is under 2300 lbs. Mast weights 50 lbs. and gaff weighs hardly anything (it's Sitka, birdsmouth).
Since it is my design there is no intrusion on the work of Chuck Paine (Pisces 21) or Joel White (Flatfish).
Easy to haul around on a trailer, but two caveats: First, even with the gaff rig it is not a simple matter to step and unstep the mast. It's not like the 12 1/2's, where the mast butt goes into the step and the spar swings up into a latching gate. This one has to be dropped through the deck, and the spar is 25' long. With Marconi rig it would be 30'. Second, no matter how you build it, a boat like this is a lot of work. I figure at least 1000 hours. Of course, this bedding a new design, I had to loft her out and build a set of molds, and that was a large hunk of time. Next time it would go quicker --but at my age, according to my wife, there ain't gonna be no more projects of this magnitude. oject of this scale.

[Ed Armstrong]

Hi Carl,

I saw your post over on the BB25 thread as well. I'd love to see some more pictures of your design. If you need help with posting, I could upload some images to my ISP's website, if you sent them to me. Drop me an email if you're interested. Have you considered selling plans to your design?

Ed