Ice boats - tail draggers

[brian.cunningham]

I keep looking at RUM RUMMER in the launching section of WB two issues ago. And I really love this old gaffer.
http://www.concentric.net/%7Edn4762/art/jfrost.jpg
And it looks like it would be easy to design a small version of it.

Just wondering why the old tail draggers ( rear tiller ) went away. Are they unstable?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Stern-steerers aren't really more unstable than bow-steerers. In fact, if you flip one and get tossed out, you don't fly as far because you're closer to the ice during moments of high heeling (during a "hike" in iceboat lingo). They do sometimes have a nasty habit of the stern spinning-out and spreading the occupants all over the ice, which is one reason for their decline.

Another reason is cost, since there is a lot of expensive wood and hardware in the average stern-steerer (like 5' long runners with cast iron inserts for the blades and wide, thick spruce runner planks).

The more popular, modern iceboats are faster, much lighter, more portable, cheaper, quicker to set up, easier to rig and it's easy to find people with similar boats to race against. That said, the old stern-steerers are still quite usable. Most of the remaining ones around here have been upgraded and re-rigged with modern hardware over the years or have been "restored" by hackers and have lost nearly all of their original class, which is sad. This is kind of a void for traditional boats.

It would certainly be possible to build one today with the elegance and tradition of the old ice yachts as a benchmark to shoot for, and if class racing isn't your motivation for iceboating, you could have a lot of fun with it. On the other hand, if you are looking to get into the sport for the least amount of money and labor, or if you intend to race, something more simple and more common, like a DN, would be a better choice.

Size-wise, it's fairly tough to get all the rigging you need for a stern-steering sloop and it's skipper in a package much shorter than about 18'. I've been playing with a design for one for a while that's based on one of the old boats and the smallest version that still looks good with a reasonably-sized footprint triangle and decent sail area is 20' long. Even so, the 25' and 29' versions looked better. It wouldn't be a difficult project, but it wouldn't be cheap if it's done in Bristol-Fashion. There would be a fair amount of blacksmith work, expensive wood and Oceanus sailcloth - but it would be really pretty.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/paccf6124cb05ef5400eca2c207eba85d/fcae1170.jpg

[ 02-05-2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[scratch]

If my memory serves, the old stern steerers generally had four runners on the ice. I would think that they are a bit slower and most likely a bit more unstable in a hike.
Thanks for the photo. Brings me back. smile.gif

[Todd Bradshaw]

They tried four runners for a short time, some even had car-type wheel steering with connecting rods, but it never caught on. The vast majority and all the famous old stern-steerers had three runners.

[scratch]

:D Good point Todd. (Seems we posted 'bout the same time.)
I did happen to get tossed out when a hike went over. Sure glad I had a helmet on.
Cheers!

[Dan McCosh]

I think the move to front-steering was motivated by an effort to put the weight of the occupants in a position where it most effectively countered the force of the sail. (you can see how the occupants have to be lifted off the ice to for a front steerer to flip--while a rear-steerer keeps the occupants on the ice while it lifts a runner.) Rear-steerers tend to get up on two runners a bit easier than front-steerers. Downside, as mentioned, is that you end up pretty far in the air before coming back down in a front-steerer. Looking on the bright side of flying through the air, at least the boat is not coming over on top of you--another drawback to the rear-steerer when it flips. Don't ask how I know these things.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Putting the occupant(s) over the runner plank on a bow-steerer, as well as raking the mast back heavily concentrate both the sailor's weight and as much of the rig's downforce as possible over the runners on the plank, preventing side-slipping. When a bow-steerer's aft runners side-slip at high speed, it's a very scary feeling. The front, steering runner can get by with much less weight on it and still work fine, which is why you can add a soft, shock-absorbing springboard up there and get away with it.

Extreme hikes are to be avoided with either type of boat unless you want to live dangerously. It's possible to iceboat for years without ever flipping (and often without ever hiking more than a few inches) just by using common sense. Most of the hot-shot racers try their best to keep the boats on the ice and don't hike much. Given the choice, I'd much rather flip a stern-steerer with it's heavy mast, plank and rigging than a modern, bow-steerer where it's not at all uncommon for the plank or mast (or both) to shatter in the process. I know a couple of people who have flipped bow steerers and ended up wearing a cast for a few weeks.

[Dan McCosh]

Yeah, hiking isn't efficient, but the sensation of lifting a couple of feet in the air and hanging on the air pressure of the sail for a couple of hundred yards is one of the great kicks of the sport. I remember watching one guy with an oddball craft--a stern-steerer with a modern rig--who liked to run for miles hiked on two runners. It's sailing on the edge.

[Dan McCosh]

Check this out: http://www.sailingsource.com/ice/photos.htm

[brian.cunningham]

That truly is nice boat there Todd. smile.gif

I'd love to make a bristol boat like that.
I saw a PBS show that had some restored old gaffers on it.

What I had in mind was more of a bigger boat. Perhaps with a sprit rig ( max sail area with minimum spar length, no boom to hit you ) maybe a sail from a Melonseed skiff OK you still need the standing rigging, but then it's not really a sprit, but you get my drift.

The runners would have to be properly made, spend the $$$ there, run DN runners so I can upgrage later. Make the body and runners from standard lumberyard stock. A plywood platform to laydown on.

I notice your design is a "sit-up, legs forward" design. Looks like all the old gaffers are "heads first" designs.

And yes I do have a helmet! ;)

[Edit] Just noticed you show both positions on your design. Either that or your encouraging a crew smile.gif

[ 02-06-2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[David N.]

every time I see one of these boat's my heart beats faster , have to plan a trip east durning the winter I guess .
Does any one rent these ( with lesson's ) or is it " run what ya brung " . This has been on my list for at least 40 yr's .
How much ice has to build up before it is safe to go out sailing . part's of our lake will frezze up , but never enough to sail on , never seen an ice boat here .
Looks like a blast , someday !! .

[Todd Bradshaw]

Well, if you put a spritsail on it, you could build a replica of America's first iceboat. It's not much to look at, but is probably the easiest historical replica building job on the planet:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pf3bdbff4eec7453d8c082829d8ed9816/fcad63bf.jpg

In general though, you would probably be happier with a "harder" sail. By this I mean one with more structural support and fewer loose edges than a spritsail has. When you're iceboating, you trim the sail in a bit, ease it out a bit and once in a while, glance up to be sure it's still there. There isn't time for much else, so a sail that has enough structure to support itself without worrying about things like snotter tension and sheeting angle is generally better. A fairly high-aspect sprit-boom might be a good choice for a simple sail that won't bean you with the boom and is pretty tolerant of variations in sheeting angle.

There were also some iceboat sails that were kind of like sprits, kind of like bat-wings and fairly simple, though they nearly always had conventional booms.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p80741387e107e42de65f02f508c1f332/fcad638c.jpg

Lateens were also used. Supposedly they were faster than anything else in certain conditions, slower than everything else in others and thus, a liability as general-purpose racing sails but simple to rig and use for touring.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p90ddb594177a21455fa7e7cfb61b6aaf/fcad6366.jpg

At speed, most folks would sail a stern-steerer from a head-first, reclining position. It minimizes both drag and wind-chill, which is considerable. I test drove an open bow steerer that I was thinking about buying once, on the spur of the moment and wearing street clothes. The wind blowing up your pant leg is something you won't quickly forget. No wonder I don't have any kids. Stern-steerers also usually have stout handrails around the edge of the "basket" (seating platform) and along the spar (backbone). In a prone, face-first position, you're also in a good position to get a good grip on them if the skipper says "Hang On!" which usually means the stern is about to spin-out. Some baskets are wood bottomed, some have slats and some have netting. The really classy ones are wood with bent combings and railings and a tufted velvet cushion to sit on.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p9b66f8503425b2292585811016608ed5/fcad5732.jpg

The guy in the PBS video with the long hair, bushy beard and big scarf sailing the big lateen-rigged boat is John Speer. He's got an interesting website that has info and pictures on the old Hudson River boats.
http://www.ulster.net/~mriceboat/welcome.html

David, I don't know of anyone who rents iceboats (just imagine what their liability policy would cost). Usually it's a matter of hanging out where people are sailing until you get the opportunity to mooch a ride in one and then you're hooked. Unlike summer sailing, people in iceboats don't put-in and sail off for the entire afternoon. It's too damned cold, so an afternoon's sailing is usually made up of several fifteen to twenty minute excursions, interspaced with warm-up and B.S.-shooting periods at the ramp. They generally love talking about their sport to anyone who will listen and can give you the local low-down.

[ 02-06-2003, 04:03 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Six or so inches of ice is usually more than enough, though people have sailed on far less. It is very important to know the difference between good ice and bad ice. Good clear black ice (real black ice, not the stuff the clueless reporters on TV talk about every time somebody slides off a bridge) is very strong and somewhat flexible. You can jump up and down on an inch or two of it and it usually won't break. A few inches of it makes for great sailing.

Snow ice, which is whitish due to compacted layers of snow and trapped air is much less safe and much less predictable, even in a fairly thick layer. You want to dig through it to be sure that somewhere down there under the junk there is a solid, reasonably thick layer of black ice backing it up. If not, stay off of it. When the ice really starts to get rotten it often has kind of a greenish color to it. At this point, you can be pretty sure that any solid base that it may once have had is gone and it's not safe. You also can't assume that just because one area has good ice, the entire lake has the same. Springs, drain holes from rainwater and areas around pressure ridges may have much thinner ice around them.

[brian.cunningham]

Well what that first one lacks in aerodynamics it makes up in bouyancy! LOL :D

The second one really catches my eye. SWIFTWOOD will have batwings on it. Perhaps I can adapt the sails from it. Not like I'm going to be sailing them both at the same time. smile.gif BTW SWIFTWOOD's aren't traditional Batwings. It will used airfoil shaped battens, not flat, more like a wing. The hull looks pretty basic, yet elegant at the same time. Can't quite make out the steering though.

Yeah one of the things I like about those traditional boats is the nice soft ( and warm ) pad with grab rails.

Didn't know that was John Speer, thanks.
and BTW :eek: OMG! This boat from his site looks like a Sandbagger on ice!
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/gifcache/moa/scmo/scmo0022/00672.TIF6.gif

EDIT: didn't realize the picture was so BIG!
Changed it to a link.

[ 02-07-2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[brian.cunningham]

Here's my first crack at designing an iceboat.
I took the batwing rigged boat above, and turned it into a taildragger. It uses the mainsail off of SWIFTWOOD.

SWIFTICE (http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/bcunningham//swiftwood/swiftice.htm)

What do you think?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Bring the anchor points on the runner plank for your fore-and-aft guy wires and the shrouds in about 40% of the distance from the runners to the body spar. This lessens the amount that the rig will wobble when the plank flexes and was pretty much standard on stern-steerers with a plank that wide.

This plank actually looks a little too wide to me. A big triangular footprint between the three runners is nice for stability, but in the proportions shown, the body would probably drag on the ice when the plank flexed. Remember, iceboats generate a whole lot of downward force. Getting a balance between enough plank flex for proper shock absorbancy and speed and enough plank stiffness to keep things from dragging can be tricky.

Moving the wires in will also narrow your netting, which is already probably a bit narrow back near the steering runner where you're going to want to sit. You need weight as close as possible to the runner to keep it from spinning-out. You can mount the steering runner shaft at about a 5 degree angle to plumb (angled forward at the top of the spar) so that it's blade will bite a little better by leaning into turns, but you'll probably still need to expand the aft end's seating area with some sort of framework so that you get more weight over the runner.

The idea of just using netting for seating may also limit your ability to push-start the boat. There isn't much to get hold of back there. Generally, you need some wind speed flowing over the sail before it starts to work and that is achieved with a running start. The netting and guy wire will be awfully close to the ice to be able to get hold of and run with.

A sail with more than the normal minimum amount of draft will help when starting somewhat, but it's a trade-off. At cruising speed, it will tend to be too full, stall easily and not have much potential to really get you moving fast. The kayak's batwing is probably going to be too full, especially if it's designed to push a kayak at six knots. By the time this boat starts moving on it's own, you'll already be above that speed and the sail will soon begin stalling.

It may also take quite a beating as an iceboat sail. Four ounce Dacron would be the fabric of choice on the kayak. Iceboat sails are under very high stress both from the wind at high speeds and from the tremendous amounts of mainsheet tension put on them while sailing. The more normal starting point for iceboat sailcloth would be 8-9 oz. fabric or heavier, which might make a pretty doggy kayak sail. People have had plenty of fun sailing home-made iceboats with old Sunfish rigs on them, but an afternoon's sailing can pretty much trash such a light sail.

Anyhow, you have a start to build on and it looks better than the first one I ever "noodled-up" (as Mr. Gerr would put it). If you want to have some fun without risk of bodily injury, build a model first. One of my sailing buddies has a radio-controlled bow-steerer that they clocked at something like 33 m.p.h. earlier this season. In the summer he puts Rollerblade wheels on it and sails it in parking lots.

[brian.cunningham]

Thanks for input, and getting back so soon.

I probably should have drawn in a "person" to give a scale. The spars are all 6ft long. My head would wind up near the plank, but I'd have to keep it pretty taugh to keep from smacking into the ice when I dive into it after pushing off. :eek: But needing weight in the back to keep from "spinning out" kinda kills that idea. I also see you point about having something to push off on.

Never thought about moving the lines in. smile.gif

Has anyone used a curved plank? with load pre-bend?

BTW The batwings I'm using are not flat, but have an airfoil shape. Still haven't decided whether to use just flexible battens, or actual airfoil shaped battens, so it looks like a WW1 fabric wing. SWIFTWOOD is a multihull, and I'm hoping for speed near iceboat level.

What your thought on these guys?
http://www.iceboat.org/Images/CraigWilsonPhotos/Feb_98_180.jpg

This could be built with two "central beams" put together and bowed out. The bottom could either netting or solid. I could even stitch & glue it like the kayak :D a 20ft body would weight about 40-50lbs.

I like the idea of a model. Used to due that with the solar cars.

[Todd Bradshaw]

"speed near iceboat level"---In your dreams!! My boy, you need to hitch a ride on a DN, a Lockley Skimmer 45 or an Ice-Flyer. They are all fairly simple, small iceboats and even if Swiftwood is the fastest multihull/kayak thingy in the world, it will feel like an absolute pig that just crawls through the water by comparison. The only soft-water sailboats that are even remotely close to iceboats in speed and feel are hydrofoils like the Hobie Trifoiler.

Why do you think so many fairly rational individuals would go out when it's ten degrees and fifteen to twenty knots of wind and hang around on a frozen lake? -or even worse, participate in a sport that is basically like going out on the interstate in those conditions and driving 60 m.p.h. in a convertable with the top down and no windshield? It's the speed and until you see it for yourself, you can't imagine what it's like.

A typical ride in an iceboat:

You stand next to the boat with it's nose pointed about 45 degrees off the wind, rocking it slightly fore and aft to keep the runners from melting into the ice and sticking, waiting for a puff. The sail is cleated-off, trimmed-in part way and you have the mainsheet and tiller in one hand. The other is on the boat for pushing. When the puff comes, you push off and start running. Depending on the winds, you may have to run forty or fifty feet if it's light air. Other times, after three or four steps you have to hop aboard to keep from getting left behind.

You jump in the boat and start trimming the sail and checking your heading. The boat rumbles along until you get up to about bicycle speed and then the magic starts. It just seems to break away and starts going faster.

Some folks use a tell-tale on the headstay as a wind indicator, but it's mostly a matter of feel. If your trim and heading are good, you are instantly rewarded with more speed. You trim and trim and trim, a little bit at a time until you're trimming harder than you have ever trimmed a sail in your life. The mast is bending, the boom is bending and the sail's foot just keeps getting lower and lower, until it's right on top of you. The windward runner is light and you occasionally see it lift off the ice a few inches as the boat goes faster and faster.

Just about the time you think you have reached what certainly must be the boat's top speed, a puff comes along and with what seems like no effort whatsoever, it squirts forward in a heartbeat and your eyes get even bigger to match. You start to realize that for all practical purposes, there is no top speed on this thing. If a big enough puff comes along, you're going with it!

Tacking and jibing are a relative breeze. The side runners chatter a bit and you probably lose 30%-40% of your speed as you carve an arc and head off on the new tack, but who cares? Speed is easy to come by as you trim-in again and it was still ten times faster than any tack anybody ever made in a regular, summer sailboat. You work your way up the lake using long tacks and fast turns and before you know it, you're a couple miles from the ramp.

The turn from upwind sailing, through the wind to a downwind reaching heading is the trickiest maneuver in iceboating. It can also be the most exiting since that's when your boat really wants to hike. Steering is critical as it's usually what is going to save your bacon in a tall hike. There just isn't enough time to control a hike with the mainsheet. The trip back home is a zig-zag of broad reaches, linked by fast, effortless jibes and before you know it you steering the boat in big circles at the ramp to blow-off speed and coast to a stop. You step out and every part of your body that has nerves feels frozen. In warmer conditions, you may even be sporting a lovely veneer of frozen slush, but you have a big smile frozen on your face to go with it.

If you want Swiftwood to feel like that, better plan on bolting a fifty-horse Merc to her tail, because that's about the only way you will even get close.

Six feet long huh? I was thinking "Gee, that must be a hell of a big Bat-Wing because the boat looks bigger in the drawing. Let me think about it.

[ 02-08-2003, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

This rather unusual photo shows one common way to do the body of a smaller stern-steerer:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p5fb68f97559e5b7cc0b247809168d372/fcab339f.jpg

Stitch and glue is a possibility, but I'm not sure it's stiff enough to resist the downforce without more reinforcement. I've been working on this design with a stitch and glue skin over pretty extensive, lightweight internal bulkheads and have pretty much decided that it would need a lengthwise keel plank that forms an attachment point for the springboard up front and actually rests on, and bolts to, the runner plank aft. Without really loading the hull up with fiberglass, I'm afraid the sailor's weight and rig downforce would bend it right under the mast. A sturdy, laminated, fore-and-aft, integrated keel plank would probably weigh less than trying to go monocoque and get the strength from the skin.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pd33ae2c611a453951f8a8e81411e8111/fcab2b9a.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p407842031d2841b7fd9604b1d9be9b29/fcab2e 6f.jpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p407842031d2841b7fd9604b1d9be9b29/fcab2e6f.jpg)

[ 02-08-2003, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[gert]

Anyof this goin on in Lotus Land or is it just too warm in British Columbia? I would like to get in contact with any one ice sailing within an 8 hour drive of Vancouver (fat chance eh?)

[ 02-08-2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
"speed near iceboat level"---In your dreams!! My boy, you need to hitch a ride on a DN, a Lockley Skimmer 45 or an Ice-Flyer. They are all fairly simple, small iceboats and even if Swiftwood is the fastest multihull/kayak thingy in the world, it will feel like an absolute pig that just crawls through the water by comparison. The only soft-water sailboats that are even remotely close to iceboats in speed and feel are hydrofoils like the Hobie Trifoiler.My secrets out smile.gif
It's a wood version of one of these guys.
http://www.windride.com/images/wrrave_actionshot.jpg
For the most part I'll be on the outriggers, better for shallow draft, but at 20ft they're longer than the kayak. the ketch rig has 114sqft of sail.
When using hydrofoils I'll have to crank up the sail area to 200sqft+

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
Six feet long huh? I was thinking "Gee, that must be a hell of a big Bat-Wing because the boat looks bigger in the drawing. Let me think about it.That's each "finger" is 6ft, 10ft tall when the gunter is fully raised, and it's just the mainsail. The nice thing about batwings is that I can always add panels in latter. Like I said, just a beginner boat. :D

I certainly wish I had your gift for describing the thrill of such an event. Well done.

Quite a bit of engineering in your S&G drawings!

Back to my last post on stern steerers, tail dragger really isn't the right name for it is it ;) . I think the red stern steerer would be the easiest to due. It could be put together like a one station skiff, or a sharpie, with a ply or cross planked bottom. The area between the mast step and the cross plank needs the most engineering done.

[brian.cunningham]

I got this from the iceboating mailing list, I've got to get out there and visit their fleet!

From: jmorton732@aol.com
To: IceBoating@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Feb 9 2003, 3:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: [IceBoating] tail draggers

... the earliest front steerers were in the 1930s ... at least in Red bank

N.J. the book by Cal Smith is excellent if you can find it ... Going down
wind , stern steerers may loose bite on the rear runner caused by the
lateral forces and a slight 'un-weightening 'of that runner , yes causing the boat
to flicker ( a 360 degree spin ) sometimes sending the skipper and or crew
for a slide !

The North Shrwesbury Ice Boat & Yacht Club (www.nsibyc.com (http://www.nsibyc.com)) in Red Bank NJ
has more than a dozen 'A' stern steerers (350 sq ft sail ) as well as
about 2 dozen smaller C &D boats in its fleet. Some are over 100years old . More
than one owner/skipper has opted to sail and race the old stern steerers
over their modern skeeters or DNs recently . The Hudson River Ice Yacht Club is
dedicated almost exclusively to stern steerers . In Wisconson , they sail
very old stern steerers with modern rigs ... talk about crazy ...

enjoy have fun ...

GO FAST - Stay SAFE - Never sail alone
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[Curtis Rist]

Todd, I was interested on your comment about the stern-steerers whose original gaff rigs have been "hacked" over the years by their sometimes well meaning owners. A few of the current racing A class boats were orignally gaff rigged while a others were origanlly marconi rigs. Have you had the chance to see the Duece, the Fritz, the Taku or the Bull on the ice? Both the Fritz and the Duece are on the ice in Fontana, WI they will be racing for the Hearst cup on the 15th. of February. ( check iceboat.org for updates) I understand that the Dutchman will also be racing. I've purposly left out the Eclipse, because she is not one of the antique boats.

As far a chopping up an antique rig goes, I have mixed feelings. If your wish is to pleasure sail then by all means keep the rig original. But if your intention is to continue to experiment and compete with the new rigs then you may find that a more modern rig will suffice. The Pteredactyl is a excellent example. The "hull" is the orginal beam from around 1910 while in the past two years the boom, the mast and the plank have been replaced. The plank and boom were broken two season ago while the mast was replaced three years ago.

Your description of ice sailing was great. Just what we are experiencing now on Lake Geneva. The stern-steerers are even more impressive to sail. Last Saturday we were racing the Pteredactyl (40 foot hull, 24 foot plank, 40 foot mast 1800 lbs. rigged without crew) against the Fritz, The Duece (56 foot hull) and The Eclipse. While you can trim in at the starting line to slightly fill the sails, you go when the flag drops. All three crew men sprint to get the beast moving. Usually the helmsman is in the basket first with the main trimmer and the jib and rotator trimmer to follow. Trimming the main is a rough job, we are using a purchase of 24-1 to get the big sail trimmed in. It is almost as taxing as grinding on an ACC class yacht. As you race up wind at 50 or 60 mph the main trimmer has his hand on the brake release of the winch. If the windward runner gets too high or the helmsman cannot feather upwind a bit to bring the runner back down then a bit of sheet is relaesed to ease the main and bring the runner back to the ice. All this while watching for the others on the course and the wind racing through your helmet.

If you make the trip down to Fontanta, you will be pleased to find not only the "modern" racing stern-steerers but also some lovingly restored gaff rigs. The Taku and the Pteredactyl however will be conspicuously missing. Taku lost her new mast a few weeks ago in Green Bay while the Pteredactyls' mast exploded on the second windward mark rounding in the second race of the day. Looks like we have two new masts to build before next season.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I don't believe I said anything about stern-steerers having their gaff rigs hacked at all. I was talking about the entire restoration job being hacked, not rigging upgrades. We've got at least a couple old Madison-style, trussed-plank boats in town which really have no competitive value any more and which might as well have been properly restored and saved as an example of things that used to be. Instead, they got inadequate clean-up, bad paint jobs, sails made by an awning company, cheap steel "blocks" (hardware store pulleys) three-strand manilla lines etc. etc. etc. To restore the boats properly, you would need to undo everything that was done to them and hope it doesn't leave too many scars that you have to cover or fill. I find this unfortunate.

Both gaff and Marconi rigs have their places in the stern-steerer fleets. It also brings up an interesting question in that an old boat that has seen use over many seasons may have been in a more or less constant state of upgrade. As new hardware was developed it replaced older stuff because it worked better. Rather than being a one-time, strip-and-replace job, it has been more of an evolution on some of the old stern-steerers. For some, though they no longer really appear "traditional" in a classic sense, they seem to follow the number-one, age-old tradition of iceboating, which is to make your boat go fast.

I do cringe a bit when I see Harken blocks on a stern-steerer and given the option, I'd much rather look at a classic iceboat than one which has been upgraded over the years to stay competitive on the race course, but I certainly can't fault the racers who own those boats as long as it's done properly.

For me, if I ever get around to building a stern-steerer I want it to look as much as possible like a luxury ice yacht from about 1910 and fresh out of the builder's shop. An iceboat with a name, not a number. I'm not interested in racing it so I'm not worried about tweaking every last ounce of speed out of it. I just plan to sit there on my tufted velvet cushion and watch the world go by in a frozen blur.

[brian.cunningham]

The kind of sprit rig I was thinking of.
http://www.wharram.com/images/launch4_sm.jpg
I wonder how it would look on that front steerer you posted?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p80741387e107e42de65f02f508c1f332/fcad638c.jpg
They due seem to be more compact.

[ 02-13-2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

It might look fine, but it's still a bad choice for an iceboat. Too many unsupported edges, including part of the leading edge, too much mainsheet tension, too much variation in sheeting angle, draft, etc. Not much reason to re-invent the wheel if the prototypes you're coming up with are square....

[ion barnes]

Hey Gert, I was up in Baniff last summer and saw a picture of iceboat racing at one of the local lakes in the twenties. The guides etc (students) were not aware of any racing done recently.

[brian.cunningham]

Yeah but a low cost racing boat is out there already the DN.

I figured it would make a nice starter/cruiser, the rig could always be "upgraded" later.

Besides it works well enough on small cats!

[ 02-13-2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

That's your problem right there! A sail that works on a small cat is still way too full to work decently on an iceboat. The cat in the picture probably won't top eight knots going to windward, if even that. An iceboat won't even keep going for long at eight knots. The sail shown will get you going and then stall because of it's fullness. Iceboats and multihulls really don't have very much in common and what works on one probably won't work on the other. You're still thinking like a soft-water sailor.

[brian.cunningham]

OK following you.

How do you get a gaff to work?
Make it stiffer than normal?
What do you tell the sail maker to do?

How come a gaff works, but a sprit doesn't?
Yes I get that sprit won't work, but could you get it to.

What about a wing mast?
http://www.trikini.com/Cheapwingsail/images/pictures/fullview.jpg
http://www.trikini.com/Cheapwingsail/index.html
These are forced to hold thier shape, but they stall easy.

[ 02-14-2003, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

A gaff works because both the luff and head are supported by stout spars and because the leech, which is the only unsupported edge is being kept tight by multi-part tackles both at the top (peak halyard) and the bottom (mainsheet). Even so, a Marconi works better - straighter, more vertical leading edge, more aerodynamic mast, less weight aloft, more control over upper sail twist and with full battens, a more efficient airfoil. This is why so many of the old racing boats were converted from gaffs to Marconis. Class rules were primarily a matter of sail area and given the same amount of area on a boat that runs at very high speeds and which accelerates quickly, a Marconi rig is faster.

We haven't even gone into the structural problems with trying to put a spritsail on an iceboat. Mainsheet tension is going to put tremendous bending force on the sprit and it probably would need to be almost as stiff and heavy as the mast. Every time it flexes it will lose diagonal tension on the peak, resulting in more mid-sail draft and more head sag induced, upper draft at exactly the time you are trying to flatten the sail.

Also, since you are trying to make a very shallow draft sail which has the potential for very high speed but not much power (the reason you have to push-start the boat) the disruption of airflow across the sail by the sprit is likely to be a major problem.

All in all, it's like putting the motor from a Chevette in your Corvette and then wondering why it runs like crap. Spritsails are great, simple sails, but nobody uses them on any boat to generate high speeds and low drag.

You tell your sailmaker that you want an iceboat sail and ask how many he's built. If the answer is none, you find a different sailmaker.

Wing masts can work. We see an E Skeeter here in town once in a while that has one. It's a two piece affair, very rigid, but adjustable in shape, having a front section hinged to an aft section with some sort of fairing strips that cover the joint. Most of the hot-shots seem to do better with Kevlar/Mylar fullly-battened radials though.

Poly-tarp has lousy off-threadline stretch resistance, so a poly-tarp wing would likely stretch out of shape really fast and start sagging. You might get a weekend out of it, but probably not much more before it bagged out or the sailing and mainsheet forces tore it part.

The mainsheet on my iceboat only controls about 75 sq. ft. of sail. It's 5/8" line and runs through six very sturdy, 3" diameter aluminum blocks. If you hand hold it at high speeds (which is usually a pretty good idea, compared to cleating it off) it is all you can do to hold it and you are trimming as hard as you can. That's the kind of force that is being put on the sail and rig. Anything that's not very sturdy isn't going to last for long.

[jeffsod]

I will second that. There is a tremendous amount of force involved in iceboat rigs. Last February at the end of the day I was on my last run up the north pond of Webster Lake (MA) and the surface had an inch or so of powder and being the end of the day was 'stiffening' up a bit and the wind was increasing too. My Kent carbon mast at the time was one of the most flexible around and was pushing outward off axis easily one to two feet no exageration (sp?). Last run of the day it was out as far as ever and a gust hit it and before I could back off the sheet BANG! Catastrophic failure. Sounded like the engine in a race car when they go.

Ever try to break a piece of carbon fiber with your hands. Next to impossible.

You want your sail to be cut pretty much flat maybe just a little depth for power when there is snow on the ice.

The plans for the South Bay Scooters call for Zero Draft in the sails.

One sailmaker in the northeast who is now making DN sails for the Maine Chickawaukee Iceboat club is Pope Sails. I believe you can do a search and find their website.

Also, Henry Bossett is a very experienced iceboat sail maker. He works out of the North Sail Loft in New Jersey.

Their website is located here:
http://www.monmouth.com/~nsnj/

If you want to see a nice photograph of a Scooter Cane Rig which shows a great foil look at this link;
http://www.dngoodchild.com/5252.htm

I would go with a Marconi rig. Old Hobie Cat rigs work well with minor modifications to the length.

[brian.cunningham]

Here's one off the mailing list:
Isabella Iceboats (http://www.berezin.com/index.shtml)

Looks like it fits the bill!

[ 02-15-2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Todd Schliemann]

I've just been reading this thread with keen interest ... had my first ice boat sail yesterday. OOOOh BABY!

Todd, your desciption was perfect, except you forgot the part about the ice chips spraying your face as you hit 75MPH and trim for more. The concept of apparent wind moving forward, and then making your own wind is remarkable. Unlimited speed it seems.

There were about ten boats of different vintage. There were two Great South Bay Scooters, the skill of those guys moving that boat up on its leeward edges and tacking it without a rudder (is that what you call it?) was a site to behold.

I'm hooked.

[jeffsod]

I made the trip down to the Hudson River this past Saturday and got to see the boat in the first post on this thread, the Jack Frost, actually sailing on the Hudson River. Wow. What a magnificant site to behold. The swiftness with which such a large, 50 ft long, iceboat can move truely has to be seen to be believed. There were many beautiful stern steerers on hand and it was well worth the trip. One of the smaller boats that was sailing about really caught my eye. The Kriss. Built in 1898 she is a piece of sailing history as it was formerly owned by the Roosevelt family.

I posted three photos on the yahoo e-groups homepage photo section in the folder entitled Jack Frost. I will add more when the other two rolls I took are developed. The address is here:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/iceboating/lst?.dir=/Jack+Frost&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/

You must have a Yahoo user name and login to access the Iceboating E-group home page which is here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceBoating/