An idea from looking at the tall ships of the past

[Wild Dingo]

Well Ive been wondering and musing about all the tall ships being built and restored around the world over recent years and a thought sort of wandered around my mind... I know I really should try to stop them before they get to this stage but what the heck? http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Now these ships where big ocean going ships with many if not most well over 100ft... question is and its only a question... has anyone ever considered getting the lines from one of these and DOWNSCALING them to say 30-50ft? with all the goobs and gobs of the original? can it be done? how would such a ship based on the lines of one up to three or four times its size sail?

I know this is a bit off centre but then again we often read here of people wanting to UPSCALE the plans of particular boats now what about DOWNSCALING them?

Would it be worth it? Im thinking tourism here... sort of like here we have the HMAS Leuwin as a training ship beautiful tall ship sails up and down the West Aussie Coast.. takes kids and adults for cruises they work the boat from sails to rigging to navigation and everything to do with sailing it... my thoughts run to taking a couple of tourists out over night or short trips up the coast in a small sailing replica of one of these.

Allow yourself to imagine it... think about the feelings and emotions of sailing something like a downscaled spanish galleon... Now loose the emotion and think logical is the idea impractical? foolhardy? wastefull? plain stupid? BUT... can it be done? The tourism potential is alone worth thinking about surely?

I know Jean-Pierre has been having some problems with his venture but this is a tad different... I think?... Aussie is warmer than where he is anyway so thats a start! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

Ideas? thoughts? suggestions?

Take it easy
Shane

[PugetSound]

The answer to your idea is that the scaled down versions would not work very well at all. This assumes that, by 'downscaling' you mean to simply reduce the lines by some percentage. Reason is that the behavior of a boat (stability and all that) is most definitely NOT linear. In other words, take for example what happens if you cut everything by 50%; because you cut both the length and the beam by 50% you have reduced the waterplane area (which affects the stability) to mabey 25% of what it was before. All that and you've only cut the height of the masts by 50% which now means that the boat is unbalanced.....

What needs to happen in such cases is that the boat needs to be redesigned as a smaller "scale" replica which is not proportionaly exact. This has been done successfully. Personally I would rather they spend the resources on building a small boat dock and a small boat livery especially for kids rather than building some huge period piece that most people can only see and look at.

[Dave Hadfield]

I recently leafed through Rosborough's "Confessions of a Boatbuilder" (I think that was the title) and a number of the boats he built were rigged as brigantines or square-topsail schooners. I think something along these lines is your best option. A brig or a ship-rigged vessel at 50ft is hardly practical because the proportions are so small. Handling square sails from aloft requires a certain size and strength of materials ie. a yardarm big enough to lean over and a footrope sized and proportioned for standing on. There also ends up being a lot of weight aloft -- a big factor to contend with when ballasting a smaller boat. If you can't go aloft, you need to bring the yards and sails down on deck. Each yard needs at least a halyard, 2 braces, 2 sheets, and if you have a column of sails (courses, topsails and t'gallants) they are usually linked together. This makes handling them on deck -- with all those lines -- difficult.

That's not to say it can't be done. There are a number of examples of someone making a 24ft (eg) square-rigger, but more as a curiousity than a boat to take you somewhere.

However having said all that, having a square topsail is do-able. I made and use one on Drake. (see my thread Drake Under 5 Sails in misc) I rig it on deck with the sail gasketed by rubber bands, hoist it aloft and then pull on the sheets to break it out. At 16 ft yardarm length it's just big enough to be useful, and just small enough to raise and lower without too much confusion. I'm favoured in having a ketch rig where the top of the mizzen is exactly the right height for braces. This means I can get away without topping lifts to each end of the yard, provided the halyard lifts the yardarm via a bridle.

Sailors of the past were just as smart as we are and a lot more experienced at this sort of thing. They didn't rig as a brig (2 masts, all sail square except for staysails) until the boat was 75ft or so, and usually more.

Mind you, they weren't trying to impress tourists. I'm sure they would've rigged their boats like a stack of box kites if it would have made them a living!

Dave

[bud]

A few years ago I saw in the lobby of the Baltimore/Wash airport a wooden boat made recently on display. It was a reproduction of a boat made as a gift for George Washington as he was leaving office and retiring to Mt Vernon.
It was a sort of mini-version of a much larger boat. God I wished I had a camera! But I didn't and the details now are a little sketchy - I think it was about 14' with 2 masts, and the larger boat it represented would have been maybe a 20 - 30' ketch. Supposedly George could have sailed it down the Potomac on his way home. I think it actually was sailed down there for him by the builders.
Anybody know anything of this reproduction. I've been kicking myself for a long time about not getting a picture - it was a beauty!

[Greg H]

Is this what you saw Bud?
This may be a LITTLE extreme:
http://www.capaccess.org/snt/alexsea/images/tallship.jpg
"The original Federalist, a miniature square-rigged sailing vessel, represented the "Ship of State" in a grand procession through the streets of Baltimore on May 1, 1788 to celebrate Maryland's ratification of the Constitution of the United States. Despite her small size, only 15 feet on deck,the Foundation's replica of this historic vessel is fully operational. The Federalist has participated in many "Tall Ship" sailing events, including those in Baltimore,Philadelphia, Boston and Toronto. The Foundation will soon begin bringing the Federalist into schools as part of its youth programs initiative."
http://www.capaccess.org/snt/alexsea/




[This message has been edited by Greg H. (edited 11-26-2001).]

[N. Scheuer]

When I was a kid sailing my 8 ft. plywood dinghy on Lake Maxinkuckee at Culver, Indiana, along with one of my brothers back in the 1950's, one of our inspirations for the wonderful adventure of sailing would be the 35 ft, three-masted O.W.FOWLER operated by the Culver Military Academy. I'm not sure whether it was a Bark or a Full Rigged Ship, but it was wooden, and had been built plank-on-frame at the academy for sail training.

Sometime in the 1970's, I believe, she was no longer servicable and so was destroyed.

The O.W.Fowler has been replaced by the LEADBETTER, a 40 ft steel Bark. She's worth a look.

Moby Nick

[garland reese]

This is not quite shat your refering to, but it is worth a looksee. Stuart Reid and John Welsford have a neat little replica of a Royal Navy cutter with a yard for a square rig for down wind sailing. She looks very salty indeed, with all those strings and sails! This could make for a really neat little family boat. John says that 6 would be a good load for a daysail. It is not quite what you were inquiring about, but hey.......you could build this one in your backyard and trailer her home when your done!! Her name is Swiftsure. Have a look in the plans pages on Johns website below.

www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz)
Garland

[bud]

Wow! Now I'm really confused. (again). The boat in that picture looks like it is about 3' rather than 15'. Is there some one on board? http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/confused.gif

[Don Z.]

It was definitely Federalist at BWI. If I remember well, this one was a copy of the original, and designed by Melbourne Smith. I wonder if plans are available?

[Ken Hall]

That Swiftsure is a sweetie! It gets added to the "maybe" list. Thanks, Garland!

Ken, needing a squaresail Ken

[johnw]

In 1866, the 26 foot metal lifeboat Red White and Blue, square rigged on both masts, sailed from New York to England in 35 days, where the English scoffed at their claims to have sailed across the ocean and accused them of only sailing across the English Channel. The rig had 22 sails, including stuntsails, topgallants and royals. I think the key is, the boat has to be stable enough for the crew to climb the mast, or the mast has to be short enough to handle the rig from the deck.

[Kristian]

I came across the same problem when scaling down a viking ship; and was told the same thing. UNLESS you can scale down the enviroment and weather, it won't work.

however; (I just thought of this now as I type) what about the scale models used in designing. Test models of boats, bridges, anything else that requires fluid dynamics.
Are waterlines, water viscosity, air density, etc. all adjusted to compensate?

[Wild Dingo]

Hey it looks like Im not alone in my thinking! Was wondering if it was possible... good minds will now set to work with imagination to achieve those dreams not yet dreamt to reality...

Garland that Swiftsure... as Ken says is a definant... maybe! That pic of the federalist sure looks like a toy doesnt it? http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif 15ft with all that fruit? thats a work of art isnt it! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/cool.gif

Take it easy
Shane