boats - enviromental pollution - Part II

[Franz F.]

here is a summary of the first discussion forum:
- enviromental concerns have not affected boating industry when it comes to the building process
- regulations just concern the "use" of the boat (exhaust, paint, waste...)
- there is no possibility for real recycling of old boats !
- and:
enviromental issues do NOT affect desisions of customers to buy (build) a certain boat or not.

what's your opinion?

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http://www.emubo.com -boats for amateur builders
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[Tomcat]

Are you talking generally, or relative to wood only?

I would say in both cases that the first point is false. Boatbuilders have been hugely affected by enviro conditions/requirements. Methods that ensure VOC compliance for one.

For wood, most wooden boats systems are a response to environmental availability of materials, whether we are talking aobut plank on frame vs. a dugout, or cold molded.

[Franz F.]

about the first point in general:
affected is just the building process, not the result. VOC compliance ensures a more "healthy" production for the workers, not for the enviroment.

about wood:
the statement "wood=enviromental friendly" is just not true, especially when you think of modern building methods.

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http://www.emubo.com -boats for amateur builders
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[Wiley Baggins]

Originally posted by Franz F.:
about the first point in general:
affected is just the building process, not the result. VOC compliance ensures a more "healthy" production for the workers, not for the enviroment.

about wood:
the statement "wood=enviromental friendly" is just not true, especially when you think of modern building methods.

Franz F,

I assume that your English (which is better than my grasp of Germanic languages) leads to your assertion that the control of VOC's (volatile organic compounds) benefits only workers in the industry. A reduction in VOC's means fewer emissions on both the plant floor and from the plant into the outside atmosphere.

As to wood not equaling an environmentally friendly media given modern methods, that is open to debate. There are many, many variables within modern building methods, and between modern and traditional methods.

I note from your website that you make some interesting comparisons, and feature some interesting designs. How do your designs match the goal of low environmental impact boat construction?

PS Where is Part I?

[ 11-20-2002, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Wiley Baggins ]

[Franz F.]

Hi Wiley
how my designs match the goal so far:
- plywood makes most out of a tree, wood decays.
- all joints are designed for wood on wood contact, but still in reach of an amateur builder. this reduces the need of glue (0.2 litre epoxid for the 6 metre "caravan")
- all jonits of two different materials can be dismantled.
- no need of lofting reduces the amount of material.
- rigg is rough aluminium, easy to recycle.
- you don't need an engine.

so, after 15-20 years of use you will end up with 0,5 kg of un-recycleable material for a boat 6 metre long, and some used sails.

PS Part I is down below

[Franz F.]

about VOC:
this is just a drop in the ocean, nothing is solved.
All plastic boats are lightyears away from any meaningful recycling process. just take a look at any industry where plastic is used: even if the product is made of one (!) sort of plastic, nothing attached, it can't be recycled so far.
how should it work on a hull, with wood sandwich deck, laminated foam-stringers and aluminium inlays? ....

Anyway, what scares me the most is the fact, that consumers just don't care when they buy a boat.
Or am I wrong here?

[Alan D. Hyde]

I agree; I don't think they care.

BUT, in the free market, once it gets to be a big enough problem, some clever person will find a way to make money out of solving it.

Remember, in 1900, straight-line projections had major cities COVERED with horse manure by 1925.

Trying to predict ten years ahead is dicey; going out beyond that is pure speculation.

Of course, that our posterity will rise to the challenges presented to them doesn't mean we shouldn't take reasonable steps to minimize those challenges through the thoughtful exercise of forethought and forehandedness.

Alan

[Ian McColgin]

I can't understand why people refuse to read Adam Smith. If they did, they'd understand his goal was the correct management of market forces. One tool is self-interest, but not by any means the only tool. He also understood the old financial saw that band money drives out good money. In product markets, crud often swamps quality. Sometimes both may exist.

Cleaning pollution is only profitable if pollution is a cost. Right now for most industrial settings most costs of polution remain externalities and there's little market incentive to get with clean.

All that said, you now find boat yards responding to environmental concerns, containing bottom paint waste, etc etc. You see the move away from 2 stroke engins. You see greater care with coatings. You see people at least raising the issue of responsible forestry. And so on.

We in the boat world are far from perfect, but we're trying. We in the wooden boat world, even those who are practice marine trades, are mostly able to incorporate environmentally sane practices and pass the costs on to our consumers. No bad thing to do our very little part.

[Bruce Taylor]

BUT, in the free market, once it gets to be a big enough problem, some clever person will find a way to make money out of solving itI'm still waiting for the free market to replenish the supply of dodos and passenger pigeons.

Linear projections in the late 19th century suggested that the Syrian Bear would soon be extinct. And by golly, it is!

[Alan D. Hyde]

Obviously, there are limits to what human ingenuity can accomplish.

But those boundaries are expanding every year.

I am told that it is now theoretically possible to clone a Mastodon; so Michael Crichton's fictional forays (Jurassic Park) may be less fantastic than they first seemed.

None of this, of course, excuses wasteful, short-sighted or irresponsible conduct.

Alan

[Bruce Taylor]

None of this, of course, excuses wasteful, short-sighted or irresponsible conductI'm sure we can agree on that, Alan.

And, if I've understood you, we can probably agree that the free market sometimes needs a little assistance in determining what constitutes responsible, far-sighted conduct. If market forces should happen not to favour the survival of the orangutan, for instance, we might consider asking our legislators (or Indonesia's) to set aside a few scraggly trees for the wild men to build their nests in.

Far-sighted and responsible people won't stand for the casual extermination of these furry orange fellows, however certain it is that scientists will soon be able to build new and better orangutans from scratch.

I'm just plugging the mixed economy, as usual. smile.gif

[Franz F.]

talking about costs:
Boats include a lot of "hidden" costs. After 30 years of use our plastic-Boat friends will pull long faces when they want to get rid of their wreck.

the "real costs" of all goods are cost of production + cost of use + cost of disposal.
No matter if the market is regulated or not or you are able to build "...better orangutans from scratch."

[alex..davies]

boating industry is defiinitely missing big garbagecan!

[Gary Bergman]

can't recycle old boats? build em right, keep em up, replank when necessary, sell to another classic boat junkie! after all, this is pretty much the haunt of boataholics. the name says it all...

[alex..davies]

Hi Gary,
do you live in Disney-world?
If yes, let me know how to get there, must be nice!
Alex

[viking]

As long as there are no laws, people don't care.

[TomRobb]

You want a recyclabel boat? Get a rotomolded kayak. The plastic can be made into other plastic junk fairly readily.
My impression is that old wooden boats recycle themselves, with the enthusiastic aid of weather and fungi of course.