Grey Seal questions

[ken.bryant]

I'm about to order plans for the Grey Seal. My apologies if everything I'm asking is answered in some previous posting. I've searched the archives and found much useful info, but I haven't found answers to the following questions:

(1) The Duck Flat site gives a building time of 1000 hours. Somebody else's 1000 hours, of course, is likely to be 2000 for me, but still: does anybody have other guesstimates of how big a job I'm taking on?

(2) And ditto for cost: I've seen somewhere that a Canadian dollar estimate for the Eun na Mara, in reasonably recent dollars, is $15K or so. From that, I might guess (on a dollar-per-pound-of-displacement basis!) that a Seal might cost me $30 K or so. Comments?

(3) The "Fifty Wooden Boats" book gives "other construction methods" as "traditional plank on frame". Has anyone tried traditional riveted lapstrake on this, or similar, Oughtred designs? (Why would I want to? Well, I don't enjoy epoxy, and the less of the stuff I have to use, the happier I am).

(4) And finally, while discussing my own perverse aversions, I do all my woodworking with hand tools. No electric anything. Am I nuts to start a Grey Seal that way?

[Howard Sharp]

There was an article in Classic Boat some years back about a Scottish builder who built a very nice Grey Seal in conventional lapstrake, using larch planking. (He wanted to use only lumber that grew in Scotland). The design uses several ring frames which must be laminated. You could use resorcinol for the laminations. The stem is designed as a laminated piece as well; it would probably be heavier if it was built up. I built my first boat (an 11' Iain Oughtred design) almost completely with hand tools, but I did allow myself a 7 1/4" builders saw and a jigsaw. Since then I would say a bandsaw and a planer have saved more time than any other tools. Attempting something the size of Grey Seal with only hand tools conjures up visions of getting out 10' long 8" wide 1/4" laminations for the stem with a hand ripsaw. Well I say put on the ear protectors and save yourself a day or two.
The rule of thumb for professional time is 1/4 hour per pound. For first time builders, I would more than double that. It should be possible to build one for around $20K, but it could easily get to $25K.

[ken.bryant]

Many thanks Howard! That gives me a good first estimate both on dollars (25k) and time (2000 hours).

The only bit of your advice I'll probably ignore is the hand tools. A task such as you describe -- a ten-foot rip in 8-inch stock -- isn't really so bad with a three-foot frame saw, followed by a two-foot jointer plane, on a twelve-foot workbench. The handtool thing is obsessive with me (like boats...)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hey ken.bryant welcome to the forum. There have been a few threads on the Gray Seal Start with this one to wet your appetite ;) She is a beautiful boat

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.co m/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006739&p= (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=006739&p=)

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.co m/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000732&p= (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000732&p=)

Originally posted by Peter Jacobs:
The builders of the Grey Seal in the wooden boat articles, Jim and Dick Wagner, have a web page at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JamesWagner/

A lot of the pictures from the magazine article are there, plus many more.

-Peter- Originally posted by Wild Dingo:
Theres also Emiliano's building site here (http://www25.brinkster.com/kng/) but its in Argentinian so reading it could be a drama... but the graphics are good and one can follow his sequence.

theres also fellow forumite Pauls (http://pages.sbcglobal.net/wilicyote/index.html) site of Adagio an Eun Mara anyone know whats happened to Paul?? havent seen a post from him in ages!!

I think the differences will become obvious as you puruse the sites weve offered... there are several on the board in the processes of getting sawdust blowing... Ken when you gonna drag them back down and start mate?! ;) {has the honey do list has grown mate?}

Best of luck whichever way you goMore from Emiliano in Buenos Aires

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.co m/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008817&p= (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008817&p=)

Also you should spend some time here WBF FAQ Building and Repair (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008298) The best this forum has to offer is on that page.

Good luck

[ 11-16-2005, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[chuckm]

Ken; do not let these "old Salts" intimindate you. The Seal is like the first day of college, your at awe of upper class mates and your scared. Being scared of building the Gray Seal is ok, but it can be done with minimal tools and initial expertise. You grow into it. You learn lofting' its not hard, its fun. Find somone who has built a real boat. He will help you. You need a mentor. But if your lucky like me a fellow boat builder will take you under his wing and help you with tools and layout and advise. Plan ,plan,plan, plan somemore. Emiliano's web site is awesome, run off every picture and study it. Oughtred's manual is a must.You need adequate shop space. and room for lofting-plywood layouts. Room for scarping plywood. Go back thru previous post on WBF and run off articles of interest, read them at night. So far i have not spent that much in dollars, but i'm finding ways to aquire lead, for free making deals with millwrights,calling in favors for bandsaws, I've learn to treat the local high school boys who work in the lumber yard, special discrete favors. (My high school daughter invites them over for a beer &/bond fire.) Hey if you really want to built this boat you make deals with devils and homage to the clergy. Beg, borrow, and steal. Seek out other boat builders, the race-boat builders have excellent contacts with marine engine guys. So far i'm just at frame # 8 keel version of the Seal, and frankly i'm very pleased with my progress so far. Just started cutting wood June 1, 05; and had to deal with hurricaine and clean-up and rebuild new roof and re-tin boatshop.If you like the Seal--JUST DO IT...

[ken.bryant]

Many thanks for everybody's advice. This is starting to look like a job that can be done -- maybe even by me!

I saw, on Mike Pilato's thread, Mr. Oughtred's drawings of a revised sail plan for a Grey Seal yawl. I was in the process of sending an excited response to Mike Pilato, a man I never had the pleasure of meeting, when I read the terrible news of his death.

The version of the boat Mike Pilato commissioned the drawings for is exactly the version I want to build. It is absolutely beautiful, and for reasons probably irrational, looks to me like the perfect boat for me. Does anyone know whether Mr. Oughtred's plans, as currently packaged, include the yawl option?

[StevenBauer]

Ask him when you order your plans. :D
Order his Clinker Plywood Building Manual, too, if you don't have it yet.

Steven

[ken.bryant]

Thanks, Steven. Duh. I had understood that his plans were only distributed through places like WB and DuckFlats, but in the Clinker Boatbuilding Manual I see an address for ordering directly...

[gert]

If you write to Mr. Oughtred he will send the yawl sail plan. I have it at home but I can't recall if it was dimensioned, but I know it doesn't give the mast locations. Mike Pilato's rendition of GS is also what prompted me to buy her plans.

[ken.bryant]

Thanks, Gert. Are you building?

[gert]

Hope to start in Jan, been busy lofting (on acad) and detailing moulds, doing domestic stuff, building things for the house and generaly procrastinating. I'm always afraid to start a project; original start was supposed to be Sept. If you havn't seen the plans drop me a line, I'm in New West.
I'm the opposite to your self, I'm going to throw technology at this girl; like a CNC machine.

[ 11-18-2005, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[ken.bryant]

So what we need to do, Gert, is (over the next 10 years!) run two parallel photo-blogs of our projects: two Grey Seal yawls, one super-high-tech, one Neanderthal. Of course, yours will be sailing while mine is still upside down getting planked; still, could be fun. And it's neat that they're both in the same neighborhood (my shop's on Galiano Island).

[gert]

I'm 53! It better not take 10 years :eek:

I also don't think it should cost 25k either; not in this woody part of the world. The only realy pricy bits are motor, planking ply, balast and sails/rigging. Every thing else is from your local lumber yard, or in your case the local saw mill :cool:

She's not gonna be a highteck boat, it's just I would rather grab a power tool than sweat, and I have access to a CNC for making and marking the moulds

[ 11-21-2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[ken.bryant]

Doug fir for frames, stems, keel?

[gert]

Yup
I got two 5x10s by 20' fir and about 100 bf of clear Sitca spruce (masts etc) 22'long of various dims. I am also considering a laid deck, sprung in VG fir. Fir is such a beautiful wood why not use it as much as possible, it's not expensive. Throw in some cedar for colour to cockpit seats, cabin bulkhead and interior...
"Mahogany" is a beatiful wood especialy the African ones (Makory & Sapeli) but they're pricy and heavy.

I'm going to buy a sheet of local 1/2" marine ply and see if I cant make it presentable and some how stabilize the face; this is a long shot but it would save a fortune. This boat will have a painted hull, I have never liked the look of a scarf joint under brite finish, not the scarf joints I've done any way. The GS built in GB was solid planked with copper roves, gorgeous hull, but then they have to be stored wet and I can't afford that.

[ 11-21-2005, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: gert ]