Lapstrake canoe designs?

[Patrick Ford]

I'm trying to narrow down my choices of plans for a canoe I want to build. I want something that has at least a 500 pound capacity that can still be comfortable with only one paddler. Is this possible? I've been looking at the Sassafras 16 by Chris Kulczycki and the Cavendish by Tom Hill. Both are about 16" long and seem like they would suit my needs.
My main issue is saving money. I'd like to keep my budget down as much as possible so I'd obviously take the more economical design over one which would waste materials, like the Sassafras seems to. Are there any other designs you guys can show me that might help me decide?

I'm probably going to go with either occume or meranti plywood for the planking.

Any suggestions or stories relating their experiences with this type of boat would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Patrick Ford

[skuthorp]

http://freepages.genealogy.rootswe b.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html)

Hi Patrick, I have an Outred designed Macgreggor. Lapstrake ply ,decked and rigged for sailing. Very versatile, 15'7", and I cartop it. I'm 61 and it's easy enough to handle with all the rig, rudder, leeboard etc inside.
There are dozens of choices here, I'll look about for more sites but this is a good start.
http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002621&p=

:D

[ 05-04-2004, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: skuthorp ]

[Brian Palmer]

I built Tom Hill's Charlotte (smaller than the Cavendish, though) and the process worked well. I'd estimate that the cost was about the same as buying a kit from CLC for the 12 ft Sassafras. So, I think that your cost will be about the same for both the Cavendish and a CLC kit, or a CLC design built from scratch.

-- Brian

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Here's what your up against.
There are not yet many designs for canoes in S&G, Lapstitch or glued lapstrake. Most of the longer boats are are fairly wide and may not be comfortable to handle by someone who isn't an experienced paddler.
The only additional design I can think of is a S&G by Pygmy. Also quite large.
If you look into strip building you'll find canoes of every size and configuration.
What would fit your needs is a boat about 16' by 30"-32" width. One name that comes to me is "Sunnyside Cruiser". The offsets are in Ted Moores' book in strip building.
All of the glued lap canoes require 7 planks on a side but have the advantage of being structurally sound without any additional reinforcements. Lapstitch canoes can get by with only 5 planks per side because of the gap filling properties of epoxy. These hulls are all require a layer of 'glass/epoxy on the inside tho'.
Charlie

[AndyFarquhar]

You don't need to be limited by established lapstrake designs. You can make pretty much any canoe as a lapstrake. I've taken the lines off an 18.5 ft. EM White Guide canoe and built two lapstrake versions. I made the stems a little lower but otherwise followed the lines. I used Tom Hill's method and had to trim the station molds by 3/4" all around to account for the 3/4" by 3/4" ribbands.

Regards

Andy

[Patrick Ford]

Skuthorp, those are nice, especially the Elver, but I am only interested in a paddling canoe right now.

Brian, could you explain how the costs equally out to the sassafras kit? It seems kind of expensive and I will be making everything myself.

I thought about taking the lines of another cane, but as this would be my first, I'd want to be safe in my measurements...

Patrick

[Paul Scheuer]

A little late to the discussion, but I think a Tom Hill glued lap would get you the most boat for the buck. Especially if you can partner up with another builder to spread the cost of the form, or sell it when you're done.

You also have more choices in materials. I once met a guy that build one from the scrap lumber that came a crating for the "good" lumber he bought for his "real" boat project.

Of course, if the 500 # is all paddler, you're goiig to need a special design. :D

P.S. Don't forget the "free boats". Let it be known that you're looking for a project, they'll show up. None of them are really free, but if you can maintain the illusion, you can end up with just what you need.

[ 05-04-2004, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Paul Scheuer ]

[Don Maurer]

Selway-Fisher has a fairly extensive line of canoes in both stich and glue and plywood lapstrake.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/

[Brian Palmer]

I'm not sure I can account for everything, but you can start to add it up with a bill of materials and a few catalogs, like Jamestown Distributors. I actually bought my plywood from CLC (two sheets at $45 each) and paid about $60 for shipping ($150 total).

I had to buy two quarts of epoxy resin and hardener (about $80 total). Plus filler and some dynel cloth (another $20?). Wood for the frame and stringers needed (another $50?). The stringers need to be clear to bend fairly, so I needed to be pretty picky for those. You also need to include the wood for the keel, stems, rails, etc. Not expensive, but also not free. Another $20? Right now I am up to about $320. At the time a kit was $495.

That's a difference of $175, but I already had a lot of tools and clamps, but still went out and bought a new saber saw ($80) and some deep throated clamps ($20), plus a rabbet plane on which I could mount an extention for cutting plank bevels. If I went with a kit, I wouldn't have needed the saw, clamps or new plane.

I think it is telling to note that some pro boat builders still start with a CLC kit, according to the CLC cataloge.

Hope this helps,

Brian

[Keith Wilson]

I built the 16' Tom Hill canoe (originally a design by Carl Bausch, I think). It's set up as a conventional tandem canoe with seats about 4 or 5 inches below the gunwales. I have not been pleased. I don't know if it's the design or if I did something wrong, but it feels quite unstable with two people on the seats, like if you twitch wrong it'll dump you in the water. It's fine if the back paddler sits on the bottom of the canoe. I've been meaning to lower the seats and see if that helps, but in the meantime it's hanging from the garage roof gathering dust. I think my building mold was reasonably accurate, but I could be wrong.

A couple of recommendations, several lapstrake ply boats later:

You can mount an extension on any plane for cutting the lap bevels, a rabbet plane isn't required. I use a low-angle block plane and it works fine.

System Three T-88 epoxy is really nice for glued lapstrake boats. It's pretty thick, only good for gluing, not coating or fiberglassing, and is a 1:1 mix. No precoating with unthickened epoxy, no fillers, just mix it up and slather it on. Good stuff, although it might not flow well enough for a "lapstitch" boat.

Clean up epoxy drips with a heat gun and scraper. If you don't know about this technique already, it will save many many hours cleaning up the inside of the hull; makes it almost pleasant. Heat softens the cured epoxy, and it scrapes right off without damaging the joint or the underlying wood.

[Andrew]

Just to offer a different opinion to Keith's on Tom Hill's canoe. I found it has less initial stability than a flat bottom canoe but is seems to move through the water a lot easier. After a couple of paddles it became comfortable to paddle. It certainly is prety too.

[Popeye]

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Designers/Discoveryboats/discanoe4.jpg double paddle canoe (http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Designers/Discoveryboats/discoveryboats.htm)

[Keith Wilson]

Andrew, do you have one of the 16 foot ones? If yours works OK, then maybe I really did get the shape wrong. It's not just my perception, though; I've had several other experienced people try it and they were all very surprised at how scary it was. It's not just a lack of initial stability, like a dory. It doesn't stiffen up once it starts to lean; it seems like it'll go right over if you don't correct. :confused:

BTW, I've paddled a couple of the shorter Tom Hill designs where you sit on the floorboards and use a double paddle; they're just fine.

[Dan Nielsen]

Harry Bryant's Fiddlehead is a lapstrake double paddle covered canoe. He has 10.5 foot, 12 foot and 13.5 foot (?) versions. The long one is set up for two people.

I do not know the capacity of these boats but the big one should be close to your 500 lb requirement. These boats do not seem to be well suited for rapids, but can take on some choppy water (so I have heard). Should be fine for the lakes around Raleigh, Merchant's (sp?) Pond or even the sounds, but I would not put one in the New River or the Neuse River after a rain.

They can be built from solid wood or ply. They may not meet all your criteria, but they are worthy of consideration.

I am currently building a pair of the 12 footers.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Popeye,
Bob Ebermayer's design looks more like Cleopatra's barge than a practicle open water canoe. Those elegant jutting stems will catch every breeze under the Southern Cross. The thought of tempting the ocean gods in a windcatcher like that fills me with dread.
My apologies to Bob but a gondola doesn't belong anywhere the wind blows.
Charlie

[Bruce Taylor]

Don't forget to take a look at Walt Simmons's canoes, which can be built in either traditional lapstrake, or clinker/ply.

http://www.duck-trap.com/2002can.html

[Patrick Ford]

Bruce, I saw those particular canoes and they look pretty good. Anybody used those designs before?

Thanks,

Patrick Ford

[Bruce Taylor]

Patrick, I have no experience with Simmons's designs, although I made extensive use of his book on traditional lapstrake canoes while building my own Piccolo.

They're narrow, presumably because Simmons designed them for use w/ a double paddle. If you're looking for a single-paddle tripping canoe, this might not be your best bet.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I'll disagree about the stems on Ebermeyer's design. Historically, boats with high ends have been paddled successfully in serious open water for hundreds of years - from skin kayaks, to some umiaks, as well as many of the nowthwest coast native dugouts, regional variations of birchbarks, Voyageur canoes, some Hawaiian boats and some Polynesian canoes, not to mention more modern designs like the Old Town Otca. Yes, they may catch more wind than other designs, but they may also in some cases have much more lift in the ends and provide a drier ride in rough water, especially if the sides are flared at the ends. There are certainly some high-ended abortions out there (the Dolphin Chief comes to mind) where function went out the window a long time ago and what's left is a bad cartoon of a canoe, but statements like a clipper-bowed canoe "doesn't belong any where the wind blows" aren't generally made by folks who have used one.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Todd,
Anything will move if you can cram enough bodies on board to generate some paddling horsepower.
However, a single paddler can generate only about 1/4 h.p. for extended periods and that ain't a lot when trying to maintain control in a powerful wind.
Recently, I got caught paddling on an 85 acre lake in winds that reached about 30 miles an hour. There wasn't enough room to generate any waves but I almost broached anyway. I let the bow get off line about 10 degrees during one gust and almost went for a swim.
The Enzed designer combined the unhappy elements of a flat bottom and upjutting stems. It might work if there was enough load to get the keel down in the water but with a light load it's going to float like a cork and do what the wind commands.
If you wander amongst the paddling venues near Madison I'm sure you'll see folks with high priced Kevlar tripping canoes that are as flat as aircraft carriers on top. Not as romantic as an old upswept Gerrish but much better on big water.
See you in Bayfield. Leave your Otca at home.
Charlie

[AndyFarquhar]

I like high stems in a big water canoe. The Chestnut Prospector has something like 25" stems and will not take water over the bow. My personal favorite, the EM White 18.5' Guide, also has high stems.

I've built two lapstrake boats to the lines of the EM White canoe, albeit with slightly lower stems. They handle the waves well. I've psddled thes boats solo into some pretty strong winds without shipping a drop. Except for a breaking sea, it's hard to imagine taking water over the bow of a canoe with high stems.

The key to paddling into the wind is to get your weight well forward so the boat cocks into the wind. When paddling out of the wind, get your weight back. I agree that a loaded boat is a lot more stable in the wind than a light one.

Regards

Andy

[Bruce Taylor]

Except for a breaking sea, it's hard to imagine taking water over the bow of a canoe with high stemsWell, the curls at the bottom of a big V will usually do the trick, and even big haystacks will slosh into the boat...but there are times when you've got to choose between wet knees and a sore back. :D

http://www.canoe-trips-ontario-canada.com/dscn0111.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

Charlie, A small, flat-bottomed, hard-chine canoe is still a displacement craft and contrary to your belief, if it has a similar waterline beam, waterline plane, volume and rocker, it doesn't ride appreciably higher in the water than a similar canoe with a shallow-arch bottom. In fact, the hard chines may even resist blowing around more than the soft chines found on most canoes. As for the paddling characteristics of the high-performance Kevlar boats, their in-water performance (resistance to blowing around and straight-tracking ability) are mostly generated by their shapes below the waterline (dead straight keel lines, long, straight tapers on the waterlines as they approach the ends and square, deep lower stem shapes, generating as much waterline length as possible). Their low ends don't have all that much to do with it. If you've ever paddled one of the fast tripping boats where they literally took the mold for a marathon racing hull and added extensions to it's sides to lay-up a really fast 15" midship depth wilderness tripper with even higher ends, you would have noticed that it really doesn't blow around that much more than the 11" deep marathon version.
All canoes are compromises and some certainly do some things better than others. A lot of those low-slung Kevlar boats are horrible in waves.

With the exception of Andy's Prospector and White, none of the other boats mentioned in this thread are really designed for extreme paddling conditions and if the poor guy was looking for that, he'd be looking at a totally different size range and class of canoes in the first place. And sorry, but nearly going for a swim on a small lake in high winds can only be attributed to lack of paddling skill and/or lack of judgement by pushing the canoe into conditions that it clearly wasn't designed to handle or where that particular design demands more skill than the paddler has to offer. It ain't the boat's fault.

As far as this thread goes, 500 lbs. in any canoe is a lot of weight. Anything under 16' is probably going to paddle like a pig with that kind of load aboard and lose most of it's seaworthiness in the process. Narrowing the parameters down and trying to figure out whether you're more in the market for a nice solo boat or a tandem tripper would be the first step.

And if you take a really low-ended boat into whitewater, be sure you use a very buoyant paddle to keep yourself on the surface. ;)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid36/pc125c1f8bf60fe0e5f01d914193a56c6/fd26e75d.jpg

[ 05-08-2004, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[almeyer]

Back to the original question. I've read both Tom Hill's and Chris Kulczycki's books, and between the two of them, I think the Sassafras will be quicker, easier, and cheaper to build in that you don't have to build a ladder jig, frames, or stringers. But in my very limited experience, the overall savings will be fairly minor. I'm finding out that you'll spend more money on epoxy and finish than you will on lumber. Good stuff though and worth it. If you buy (or loan) Chris' book, you don't need to buy a kit - the book has all the dimensions you need so you can cut your own planks. As between meranti and occume, meranti, at least in my area, is quite a bit cheaper than occume, but it's also about 25% heavier, if that's a consideration.
Al

[AndyFarquhar]

Here's a pic of one of the glued lapstrake boats I made to the lines of an EM White 18.5' Guide.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid115/p853bc3a8ebaf49548ebff94383fe70da/f8bbee7e.jpg

The stems were cut down a bit - otherwise it's pretty faithful to the lines.

The boat in the background is a stripper. Below the waterline it's a 16' Prospector. I cut down the stem height to about 22" and the depth to 13" and added a bit of tumblehome in the middle. It's a great solo boat. There's no reason it could not be made as a lapstrake boat.

The photo is from a daytrip down the Oswego River in the South Jersey Pine Barrens - as pretty a little river as I've seen anywhere. I put my friend and his two kids in the 16' boat. I remember that it was considerably slower than the 18.5' boat. The Oswego is a tiny, twisty stream. I taught my kids how to pry and draw in the bow at an early age.

Regards

Andy

[ 05-09-2004, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: AndyFarquhar ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Great looking boats & kids, Andy.

The Oswego sounds like a real treat.

[John E Hardiman]

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