DORY v. GYPSY

[davebrown]

After 3 months of going around in circles ( I could have built BOTH of these by now!), I am stuck betwixt a Payson's Gypsy and a stretched Gloucester Gull. I want a boat that has some rough water rowing ability while loaded with a passenger, myself, and a dog or some gear...I live in Sacramento and want to do some pulling down around Angel Island or Alcatraz...

I have actually built one Gypsy to point of painting, but then a divorce swept her downstream and I never got her launched. I have a Weekend Skiff which I did finish and have used for about 2 mos now, a delightful boat which has gotten me very motivated to do some long trips rowing.

Thus, which would be better for rough water rowing, a stretched Gloucester Gull or a Gypsy? And, where can one get plans for the stretched Gloucester Gull? I do not see any plans except for the 15'6" version (I have Payson's book).

Regards and thanks for responses.

[Keith Wilson]

Well, if you want to go out in the Central Bay on summer afternoons in either of those boats, you're a braver man than I. In the early morning or in winter, either will work, although I'd lean toward the dory.

I think the larger dory would have better rough-water capability, although you might want some ballast if rowing solo. I built a Gypsy and rowed her quite a bit; while she's a wonderful boat, freeboard is very low and I don't think I'd be real comfortable in rough water. One point - for rowing, the Gypsy DESPERATELY needs a skeg. Directional stability is not good without it; if you stop rowing she wants to rotate merrily abut her centerline, which is good for taking in the scenery but not for forward progress. Gypsy sails very well (although not on San Francisco Bay :eek: ), if that's important, and the dories don't.

Palns for the big dory are available from Common Sense Boats (http://www.common-sense-boats.com/big_dory.htm), or you can contact Bolger directly.

From another site:
The best way to contact Phil Bolger and Friends, Inc. is by fax at (978) 282-1349, or by mail at P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA 01930 USA. They respond quickly to faxes and have a reputation for being very helpful. They do not use a telephone, and do not use email.


[ 04-16-2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[davebrown]

Brian: that sounds both very generous and very interesting. I'l trade ya an excellent bottle of wine for the experience. If you are serious, give me a buzz at davebrown63@yahoo.com.

[davebrown]

Brian: that sounds both very generous and very interesting. I'll trade ya an excellent bottle of wine for the experience. If you are serious, give me a buzz at davebrown63@yahoo.com.

Keith: sounds like you are speaking from experience. The Bay is not for the unprepared or the inexperienced. I am the latter, although I have gone out many times in kayaks. I think you will agree it is doable in the right weather with the right boat however...

[L.W. Baxter]

Dave, have you considered the Stickleback or John Dory designs by Iain Oughtred? Or one of the rowing dories from John Gardner's books? Any of them can be built in glued-lap plywood. And for big-water rowing, these would seem like good choices.

Here's mine:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid111/p8b64764a6406b71431415b6ec9ec5e5e/f910c200.jpg

A 17' Swampscott from Gardner's The Dory Book . As to it's rowing qualities, I can only speculate, as I have yet to get it wet.

Aw shucks. I can't help myself. Here's another look.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid111/pe91a4ee71d13a2f2de56c78ad3bc4f01/f910c228.jpg

[Peter Lyons]

Why, L.W... she looks fine all over! In this other recent thread (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009205) you were shy about showing us anything more than just her rear end. ;) (and a nice rear end it is.)

[davebrown]

I have gotten a numberof hits on searching for Gardner's Dory book. This sounds like a must have. That swampscott looks very seaworthy, from my amateur eye...

I still don't know what I am going to build but I am buying ten sheets of ply and other lumber tomorrow. I think the suggestion for the Big Dory is going to be the best compromise b/t building ease and rough water capability.

[Jack Heinlen]

A dory, Swampscott or Bank, is the finest, small rough water boat ever. Not to disparage 'Gypsy'. If I remember correctly it's not much more than a Swampscott dory with a little more bearing aft.

If you want a good all 'round boat', to row and sail, the 'Dion Dory' from 'The Dory Book' would be wonderful.

The Glouster Gull is tender. They are all tender, it's part of what makes them so successful, but the GG is going to take a little finesse. Great boat, don't get me wrong, but not a neophyte's picnic boat.

There's an old saw. If you get in trouble in a dory lie down in the bottom and let the boat take care of itself. Largely true, unless you're about to be washed ashore. :D

[davebrown]

This boat is for rowing; I cut the rocker on my weekend skiff for adding a sail rig, which I will do this fall. My main goal with this next boat is to do work-outs in it, but I am an adrenaline junky from way back and as I gradually get educated I want to do some Bay rows up towards China Beach and at the right time, Angel Island or thereabouts (SF Bay). It is perilous with fast changing weather and sea, but I have done many trips in kayaks and I often see pulling boats out--I want to try it, but I don't want to get myself killed in the process.

Can the swampscott be built with ply and stitch and glue?

[Keith Wilson]

Any dory can be built with plywood, either sheet ply for the straight-sided types (like the Gloucester Gull or the larger version), or ply lapstrake for all the others. You could convert to taped-seam if you like. It has advantages and disadvantages: less accuracy but more sanding required. I'd seriously suggest you get a copy of John Gardner's "Dory Book"; it's by far the best on the subject. It's still in print.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/300043S.JPG

About rowing on the Central Bay; I haven't done it, although I've sailed there quite a bit. I had a Thunderbird (26' plywood fin-feeled sloop) in Berkeley Marina for a while. I'd say it's a matter of timing. The tidal currents can be pretty strong. I once was sailing north along the east side of Angel Island at what I though was a pretty good clip, until I realized that two anchored fishing boats were gaining on me. You don't really want to end up off Point Bonita somewhere until the tide changes.

Also, the sea breeze is strong and very reliable on summer afternoons - 25 knots is normal, and it can get pretty choppy on a big ebb. Not big waves; maybe a 3-4' breaking chop, but big enough in a small boat, and I'd suspect hard to row in.

Y'know, there are two old rowing clubs, Dolphin and South End, on the Cityfront, one of them just at the foot of Hyde Street next to the Maritime Museum. Why don't you talk to them? They'd know more than anyone. I think they even use some old San-Francisco style whitehall boats (wider and heavier than the east cost whitehalls). There was an article in WB #155 about them.

[ 04-19-2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[carlg]

The South End club sponsors a rowing race on the Bay and I've competed a few times in my Maas Aero. They do indeed have some wide and heavy "Whitehalls" and they are surprisingly fast. I've finished a race in the middle of the pack and seen one of the "old" boats very close behind. I'd pay them a visit just to see the great variety of boats in the boathouse.

[edsr]

Have you considered a Seabright Skiff? One was rowed across the atlantic at the turn of the century.

There are a number of seaworthy boats in the Dory Book. I would tend to think that if John Gardner considered it seaworthy it probably was and is, especially hauling a load.
edsr

[davebrown]

This has been a great series of replies. Thnx.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by edsr:
...I would tend to think that if John Gardner considered it seaworthy it probably was and is, especially hauling a load.
edsrIn the case of the Banks dory, hauling a load is very nearly required to achieve stability. No worries. Your most rotund fishing buddy and half a ton of cod will work nicely. :D

[davebrown]

Keith, did you also say you have a Gypsy? Is the main problem with rough water rowing her freeboard, or is it the fact that the rocker and other issues make it a better boat for sailing? I am just abot sold on the swampscott over any other boat..but I have built one gypsy and know I could do it much faster the second time around...that was my first boat and I think I have made most of the big mistakes one could make with it. I am very inventive that way. Funny thing, I had a bilge plank that I sawed three times, and, to repeat the old joke, each time it came up short. I phone Payson, who, to my surprise, answered the phone in his shop. In an accent that I guessed must be heavy downneast, he evaluated my error and said, "If you do that, you'll introduce a lot of wickedness into that boat". I thought that was a great remark. I felt like I had phoned Ishmael. He talked me through the error.

[Keith Wilson]

I had a Gypsy, sold it to a friend. It was the first boat I built, 14 years ago now, and not knowing any better and having no excess cash, I built it out of lumberyard ACX fir, bits of 2x4s and polyester resin. It's holding together just fine despite indifferent care. The Weldwood glue holding the halves of the mast together let go two years ago, but he put it back together with epoxy. The rudder and daggerboard have been replaced - they were an even worse grade of plywood, and rotted.

Oh, God, did I ever make my share of mistakes on that boat!! Nothing too bad, but it took a LOT more time than it would if I built one today. The worst was not knowing the difference between layup and finishing resin. Polyester resin won't cure completely in the presence of air, so layup resin always has a thin sticky layer on the surface. Finishing resin has wax dissolved in it, which floats to the surface, blocking out the air and allowing it to cure completely. I tried to sand off the sticky layer, which gums up sandpaper at an astonishing rate. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I never rowed the Gypsy in conditions like one would encounter on the Central Bay. I don't think it would be a bad rough-water boat, but anything with only six inches of freeboard will have certain limitations, which is why I said the dories would probably be better. I'd take on a fair amount of water, spray mainly, just sailing her on local lakes when it was blowing. If you do build one that you're going to row a lot, be sure to put on a skeg.

And I share your opinion of Dynamite Payson; he's a great guy, even though you sometimes need a translator. I stopped by to visit him on my way back from the WB school a few years ago; saw his shop and the original Sweet Pea prototype. He said he mainly builds models now, "Got tah'd a'sanding fahbahglass." Can't say I blame him.

[Venchka]

:rolleyes: SMACKS his head hard!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why didn't I mention this sooner:

Traditional Small Craft Association, Sacramento Chapter

T.S.C.A. Sacramento (http://www.drathmarine.com/)

These folks could help.

[Steve Paskey]

Dave: You asked earlier whether a swampscott could be built stitch and glue.

Selway-Fisher in England sells plans for two stitch and glue swampscotts -- a 12-footer and a 16-footer. Here's a link to the latter:

Fisher Swampscott (http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#FISH)

Construction should go quickly: the plans include the plank shapes, in metric measurements.

The 16-footer is a bit beamy (5'-0") to be a outstanding rowing boat, but Paul Fisher seems to be very amenable to making modifications to his plans at the request of builders.

Paul has most of his work in a CAD system, so I doubt that it would cost much to have him give you the plank shapes for a slimmer version. If you'd really prefer a stitch and glue design, it might be worth asking him.

[ 04-22-2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[L.W. Baxter]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
The 16-footer is a bit beamy (5'-0") to be a outstanding rowing boat...
But what is the beam at the waterline .

My Swampscott, pictured above, should come out to about 40" at the waterline when modestly burdened. Coupled with the fine ends, I expect it will row very easily. And the 5' beam of the Fischer dory at sheer height should be good for getting leverage on the oars--no need for outriggers!

The biggest drawback to the Swampscott's would seem to be the added windage due to greater freeboard. But the greater freeboard is also a principle advantage when the wind really kicks up. Bit of a catch-22 there....

[Steve Paskey]

Good point. I was just assuming that the cross section of most swampscotts is roughly similar, and that, relatively speaking, a boat that was wider at the shear would likewise be wider at the load waterline.

One of John Gardner's books has plans for a "wide" 16-foot swampscott. As I recall, the beam of that boat at the sheer is roughly 5 feet, essentially the same as the Fisher swampscott.

[Don Chapin]

Dave,

I built a Gunning Dory from gardner's book about 6 years ago. Rowed almost nightly on Buzzard's Bay in MA in all types of weather. Rowed fixed seat with 8 1/2 foot spoon blade oars the boat is both fast (relatively) and certainly seaworthy. Definitely worth a look.

Don

[Frank E. Price]

Jack H,

Regarding neophytes and Gloucester Gulls, my two youngest learned to row in a Gull almost 20 years ago, when they were about 9 and 10 years old. I would turn them loose in the chuck in nice summer weather wearing life jackets, and they had a ball -- and used full size spruce oars with leathers, no buttons. They lost an oar only once or twice and retrieved it on their own. Then they learned to not let go of them while they're in the locks. Of course I was always where I could keep an eye on them and had another skiff at hand. They both still enjoy rowing when they get a chance, but I'm the only one in the family who still rows on a regular basis.

The Gloucester Gull is one of the all time great boats. One of the astounding things about it is that it does what it does so well, yet is so simple and inexpensive to build. And it does teach you proper rower's habits.

I've also built a Gypsy, and it's a fine boat, but as Bolger says, it's a compromise "do everything" boat. For rowing, it needs a small skeg.

Frank