real wood vs ply

[Paul G]

There are more than a few here who think ply is a lesser material than real wood. At what point is it practical to use solid wood for boat construction? Is this more an aesthetic or is there a practical reason to eschew ply.

I am itching to build, and have used ply in past but if there is a compelling reason to use the real Mc Coy Id better hear it! I am also presuming the differences between strip planking, lapstrake and carvel are as wide again as using plywood.

[pcford]

Real wood is more pleasant to work with. Plywood is a sandwich of wood fibers at 90 degrees to each other. Thus working the edges is different and kinda a pain compared to solid wood. The face veneers on ply these days is paper thin. And I mean that literally. It is very easy to sand through. I spent Saturday replacing some plywood that suffered from my overenthusiastic sanding.

On the other hand you do not have the grain run out problems with ply that you have with solid.

[Venchka]

I reckon it matters more which is readily available. If you have good boat building lumber close and affordable, go for it. If you are in a boat building lumber black hole, having good quality marine plywood shipped in may make more sense.

Ya pays yer money and takes your chances.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Jay Greer]

Fir marine plywood is roughly the same specific gravity as white oak. I have three boats in my shop currently that are built of plywood.that has delaminated and gone rotten in critical places. The same is true of these boats as has been of the many others I was called on to repair. Their rotten components were made of plywood. My first prefrence for boat construction is for genuine tree wood rather than the fake stuff. I might add that I am allergic to both the glue and the advertising used by US Plywood.

[Wild Dingo]

Wayne hits it! Paul for an example down here in West Aussie for me to get access to solid timber suitable for boatbuilding ie Jarrah Karri etc is easier and cheeper than I can source play of any discription... here even shite ply goes for a whopping large price which Im not prepared to pay

So the choice in my situation is relatively easy based on 2 factors

Availability... solid timber is readily available good quality ply is not

Price... solid timber can be had for that excellent price of $0 other than fuel to get it and time to go get it... ply costs $90 and up a sheet for crap ply from the local Bunnings store (like your chain hardware stores) and twice that from distributors.

So from both two stances Im going solid wood... ply just doesnt come close. One or two sheets Im okay with but for any more than that forget it! she would moider me! :eek:

However having said that there are more costs than simply the timber involved in the hull construction... savadamoney for the other things!

[Buddy Sharpton]

Lord, what kind of boat? Hull shape leads to various construction technique possibilities. I'd say plywood has pretty much the upper hand in suitability for strong, practical decks, Also for bulkheads and furniture below.

As for hull material- that debates is wide open.

[JimD]

I think it may be hard to beat plywood for epoxy glued trailer boats. A larger boat that's going to stay in the water most of the time would lead me to consider other building approaches.

[Paul G]

Thanks, most helpful. It may simply come down to price and availability, also with my skills, strip planking may be the way to go if I choose solid timber.

[Steve Paskey]

As an aside, I thought y'all might enjoy the following. In the shop at the WoodenBoat school, there are large plastic containers with the following message written in black letters:

WOOD ONLY
NO TRASH OR PLYWOOD

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
...WOOD ONLY
NO TRASH OR PLYWOODThat's right. Every little piece of plywood has potential use in the boat. Plywood scraps ain't trash! :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Tom Lathrop]

Paul,

Your question is bound to draw out all ludites from under their boats where they were replacing rotten garboards and frames.

Anybody without blinders knows that a piece of marine plywood is both stronger and less rot prone than an equal sized piece of same quality and species lumber. Quality of the material is all important and crap plywood is no better than crap lumber. Respect for and proper use of the chosen material will give good results no matter what it is.

If you are doing a traditional wood boat, then lumber is the only choice. If it's a round hull, then some form of strip or cold molding is called for. For the average backyard builder, plywood is the hands down choice.

[dmede]

I would add as another major consideration the fact that ply negates the need to think about wood movement.

If you build a lapstreak boat wth ply you can epoxy the planks together and not worry about it. But solid wood requires a more sophisticated means of attachment that will allow for expansion and contraction while staying water tight. So while I'm sure your joints are top nothch regardless of what material you use, it matters more with solid lumber than ply (in some cases).

[Don Z.]

Stay out of it Don... Stay out of it stay out of it.. nope, too late.

What we really need to answer your question is there a practical reason to eschew ply is more information.

I mean, for starters, you haven't mentioned if the hull is a developable surface or not. A "luddite" might point out that a board which bends in only one direction would be very difficult to use on a hull that is not developable. Even a modern "Spaceman Spiff", no matter how enamored with ply, would have difficulty debating that point.

Then, you would have the question "what type of ply". Radial cut fir will check badly...even that made with 100% waterproof (you can even boil it... though I've never thought to boil a boat, perhaps that concerns Spaceman Spiff on re-entry?) glue will have that problem.

And you alluded to (actually, you mentioned it directly) different build types. Perhaps it would be best to first choose a design, and then choose the type of wood? After all, different design types may be better suited for "the real McCoy" than others. In fact, to really go out on a limb, what is my cold molded hull, if not a boat shaped piece of plywood?

[Boatmik]

Doesn't this really come down to what you like as a material and like to use?

Also what you are more familiar with.

Also what methods you like.

So simply personal choice? There are good and bad boats in all materials.

Good boats come from matching the design, the material and the methods to provide something that is aesthetically and structurally "of one piece".

So if you have been building ply boats and want to build something of "Real" wood - it is easy - go for it - you know you wanna

Best Regards
Michael web page (http://www.ozemail.com.au/~storerm)

[Paul G]

I posted a question recently about the best type of ply and I have read Bob Smalsers unflattering comments on the subject, looked at Paul Gartsides site..... I got thinking, why ply? or why not real wood. May be I am simply too lazy to develop the skills needed build in solid timber? It seems that as usual nothing in the boating realm is cut and dried. Ply is possibly the best option for trailer boats, which is within my means for the next project. In any case since the same advocates of solid construction also advocate epoxy, maybe the point is about personal preference rather than folowing a noble tradition. Good to hear opinions about this. As for the question about the design, that follows the choice of material to some degree. If I have a preference its for lapstrake/clinker a la John Welsford, and I do have plans from him that could be built in a number of methods.

[Wild Dingo]

Of course its about choice Paul... compromise and choice and utilizing what is most readily available given ones location finances and desires.

There are many ply boat designs available in all forms and shapes sizes and lengths... first you have to have the desire to build a particular design in ply then you must be able to source said marine ply or at the very least good quality exterior ply at a reasonable to your pocket and budget price... this can be done and again some compromise may well allow a ply build

Many are the designs for boats of solid timber and this is also a matter of choice compromise and financial ability to acquire good quality boat building timbers in sufficient quantities at a financially barable price

One at times may well be able to "change" the build material say from solid timber to ply but advice would be to get a NA to go over the figures before you begin... it would of course be preferable to use the timber/method advized by the designer however in some instances say BB Crowninsheild for one they are simply gone and unavailable to question so find a quality good repute NA to fill their shoes to crack the numbers for you... thus you should be able to utilize say several layers of ply (diagonal fore/aft) to build up the structural intergrety as the designer intended... you will no doubt loose out on the intended asthetic appeal but you would have a boat of the design you choose

Some designiners are developing designs that can be built of different materials ie: Roberts designs often offer choice of materials...

I think though that if you were to desire to build say a Crowninsheild Dark Harbor such as Art Reed has done then really being honest to the design as designed is the only way to go... I think from a personal view such a fine yacht would not have the same appeal as such as Art created ply simply would not have the same appeal (IMV)

The thing is if your choice is to build a ply boat then why not find a designer that caters to ply boats? If they have nothing that has that "IT" factor of say a Dark Harbor then perhaps a small yarn would provide the designer in question with the motivation to at least try to create something at least similar?

Some designers have a huge range of different designs Yves Tounton (sp?) comes to mind and among them are many that can with a simple conversation and passing of green stuff can be changed to suit your needs... While you also have designers such as Roger Dongray and Iain Oughtred who offer designs that hold true to the "timelessness" of older styles yet are built with modern materials of ply fibreglass and epoxy

Another option is to have it built in timber in another part of the world at probably close to half the price you would pay at home... this was suggested to me by some members here to build in Thailand India Indonesia or the Philipines where labor and other costs are considerably less than here in Aussie... however to me that takes the main part of the whole journey away the actual building process

But is ALL about choice compromise desire and availability of both material of choice and finance... simple.

The hardest part is making the bloody choice!

[Venchka]

http://www.supertool.com/etcetera/photogal/photo8.jpg

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Frank E. Price]

Real wood is more fun. If you're strapped for bucks, third rate wood is better and cheaper than third rate ply. It's easier to replace a rotten frame of wood than a rotten ply web-frame or bulkhead. But if your boat is going to live out of the water, ply will not open up nearly as bad. You can spend a lot of money with either. If the design you've just gotta build is intended for ply, it should be built of ply.

Based on building a few ply skiffs and one of wood.

Frank

[David123]

well, i've read on and on and just had to put my two cents in.
I'm not a pro and my profession is other than the marine industry, but I have worked with wood in one form or another since i was 14.
Fact is Plywood is cold molded wood veneer. So then what is a cold molded boat made up with rescorcinol and veneer? yep...plywood. And good Quality plywood is a joy to work with. It has done anything I've asked of it and more. a few years back I was involved in a restoration of an Old Luger kit Boat. A plywood panel was needed in the after sections. It was a simple matter to take out the old one and fit a new one to the still good mahogany frame.

I still like fasteners and good things holding boats together other than glue, be it epoxy or something else. After I finish the Stitch and glue CLC Design, the next boat will e a Framed model, probably sheathed with Ply and epoxy.

There are places for both types of wood in this age of wooden boats. If You like the feel of the plane slicing off the shavings as you go and the challenge of stean bending ribs into place, then by all means, go traditional. If speed and some modicum of economy dictate your boat, then go stitch and glue. If you want the best of both, then go with a framed structure sheathed with ply. If you use good materials, no matter what design you choose, you'll get a servicable craft. And more so, when an admirer ganders at your finished product, they will marvel at your dedicatiopn and skill....as will we all here when you post the finished pics, no matter what you built it from.

Good Luck
Dave

[Keith Wilson]

A "luddite" might point out that a board which bends in only one direction would be very difficult to use on a hull that is not developable.Plywood is really no different from solid wood in that respect. A plank doesn't bend in two directions any better than a sheet of plywood; worse, in fact, because you have to use a thicker piece for the same strength. There are two reasons you can build a round hull out of solid wood and not sheet ply; trees don't grow in big flat sheets so you have to use more and smaller pieces, and you you can carve a solid plank into a complex shape because it doesn't have veneer layers (backing out, rounding the outside, and the inimitable Chesapeake-style hewn forefoot).

You can build any shape boat in laminated wood that you can build with wood right from the tree, if you allow ply lapstrake and cold-molding (which is sometimes done with the inner layers cut from sheet ply a la Ruel Parker). The shape limitations of sheet ply are not from the material itself, but the fact that you're building with large sheets, whch you can't do with solid wood.

[Garrett Lowell]

Personally, I dislike working with plywood. It smells awful, quickly dulls my tools, and is unwieldy. Did I mention it smells awful? I do use it for projects that need it, but I avoid it if at all possible.
Those are my reasons for not wanting to work with plywood. I don't find it a lesser wood than solid wood.

[paladin]

Sorry Tom...I gotta disagree on this one....Plywood is more dimensionally stable but not necessarily stronger than a similar size piece of good...properly spec'd solid wood....

I have taken strips of AA marine plywood....solid mahogany and fir....laminated magogany and fir...all of similar dimensions...and subjected them to tests....such as...

all pieces approx, 3 inches wide by 1 inch thick by 4 feet long....
first test...clamp first 4 inches rigidly down and then add weight to opposite end measuring deflection and then breaking....
then supported at both ends and dropping a small anvil in the middle from 1 foot...2 feet...3 feet etc til the wood broke.....
The loser...plywood....ultimate winner...laminated pieces made from 6 sawn pieces of Honduras mahogany sawn from same plank with every other piece flipped for grain...the similar fir piece broke as an extremely close second place.

[RichKrough]

Solid wood is easier to work, if you make a mistake it is easier to hide. Plywood is instant gratification. I know a guy who has been working 3-4 months on a strip built kayak. I have built two plywood kayaks in 3 weeks and have been paddling past his house nearly everyday. His kayak will no doubt be beautiful but while he is up to his elbows in saw dust and epoxy I am on the water everyday. I don't make mistakes so plywood works fine for me :D

[Tom Lathrop]

Com'on Chuck, unfair, unfair. You used the strength of the solid wood in only one direction. Plywood is almost balanced for equal strength in all directions. Try your experiment with the wood loaded cross grain.

The Brits didn't build Mosquitoes out of solid wood, did they :D

[paladin]

yeah tom....but we dunno got lotsa maple and stuff that they used on the skeeters.....

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Tom Lathrop:
...The Brits didn't build Mosquitoes out of solid wood, did they :D All they had to do was ask and we woulda shipped them all they could stand. They actually BUILT skeeters???????? :D

But seriously folks, it's far better to ponder this question and then search your neighborhood for available materials first. Find out what is possible to build before you fall in love with a design that can't be built with what you have to work with. Been there. Bought the plans. Stuffed for materials.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[John Gearing]

A few years ago Woodenboat published an article about plywood wherein a number of pros from around the country described their experienceds with it. The thing I noticed was that many comments were contradictory. One builder said he wouldn't use Okoume because it rots easily. Another guy said all he WOULD use was Okoume. Ditto with Khaya (sp?) and all the rest. There wasn't one "species" of plywood that was universally liked. When I pointed this out in a rather snappy letter to the editor, suggesting that the article was more confusing than enlightening, he (not Jon Wilson, the fellow who was technical editor) wrote me a rather snotty reply to the effect that any intelligent person would have figured out that the longevity of a plywood species depends on the climate where it lives.

My advice: use plywood if you must but if your boat is going to live in the water, check with local builders in your area to find out which species of ply they prefer.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I find real wood way, way, way cheaper around here.

-Thad