Missle -- Whatcha think?

[bill ladd]

Folks -- Been lurking for quite a while and the project is to begin right after Christmas. At some point I'd like to build a runabout, but one of my building partners wants to start with a small sailboat. Since I grew up on the Pamlico on a number of plastic sailboats, it's an idea to which I'm very agreeable.

Found MISSLE (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5103.htm) on the D.N. Goodchild site. Looks to be a relatively simple assembly and a right smart little boat. Anyone out there with racing toothpicks like this? Any opinions?

TIA, Bill

[John Bell]

Looks a lot like an International 110 or Bolger's TARANTULA. The Bolger version might be easier to build than either a 110 or MISSLE.

These days I think the 110's get raced with one person out on a trapeze.

The less expensive alternative might be to find a used 110.

[bill ladd]

Thanks, John. No, the project is the thing, rather than just getting another boat. Where might I go to see the Bolger design?

Also, there are three of us in the project. Could we all fit in that tiny cockpit?

Bill

[ 12-15-2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: bill ladd ]

[John Bell]

There's nothing online that I know of on the Bolger boat. Go to the library or bookstore and pick up a copy of his book Boats with an Open Mind for a write up and study plans. You could also send a fax or letter to Bolger inqiring about plans availibility at:

Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:(978) 282-1349

I've found that he responds quickly to faxed inquiries.

I've no idea about the capicity of any of these boats. IIRC 110's are raced with crew of two, but I could be wrong. But my guess is that you ought to think about a bigger boat if you want to do a lot of sailing with three or more aboard.

[ 12-15-2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

[bill ladd]

Will do. Boats With an Open Mind is at my local library.

Thanks, Bill

[imported_Steven Bauer]

You could build a Lightning. They race with three and you could daysail a coupla more.

Or what about the Al Mason design a fellow forumite was building? That was 18 or 19 feet with a nice sized cockpit.

But you should really check out Iain Oughtred's Caledonia yawl!

Wayne should pop in soon with some pictures.

Steven

[Keith Wilson]

Most of Dave Goodchild's plans are reprints of old magazine articles on which the copyright has expired, or the magazine has gone out of business so nobody cares anymore. FWIW, the complete article about building Missile is available from this site (http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/Missile) to download free.

I think it's a very cool-looking boat, very much like an International 110. It's shorter (19'6" vs 24') and a little wider (50" vs 48") than the 110, and the draft is 6" less. Here's the 110 class website (http://www.110class.com/theboat.htm) for a comparison. 110s have the reputation of being fast, wet, and a lot of fun. As drawn, the cockpit is 6' long by maybe 40"?, OK for two, tight for three.

[ 12-15-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[On Vacation]

If you don't like the Missle, take a look at the site. This is the Windmill class. We have one in Cape Carteret, up the road from you, that is 35 years old, and just been redone for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.windmillclass.org/

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Steven.Bauer:
...But you should really check out Iain Oughtred's Caledonia yawl!

Wayne should pop in soon with some pictures.

StevenWho, me?

Starting after Christmas? Shucks, I can't get there that soon. I was thinking of sailing the N.C. coast on the way to/from the Penobscot Bay thingie.

I don't know. If 3 folks wanted to build a toothpick rocket they probably wouldn't like a wide, deep big boat like the Caledonia yawl. Now, if those same 3 folks wanted to blast off for a long weekend or week of cruising and camping, maybe they ought to look at other boats.

Virtually everything there is on the Internet about the Caledonia yawl:
Caledonia yawl (http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/index.html)

My feeble attempts to document Elisabeth Grace

Elisabeth Grace I (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290472089)

Elisabeth Grace II (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288809803)

Throw in the Lightning and you have 2 of the myriad boats that 3 folks could enjoy together or singly. Not sure-can a Lightning be singlehanded?

[Venchka]

OK, out of fairness, I went and looked at Missle. I want some of the stuff the designer was smoking!

The fin keel is bolted to its hanger and can be removed or installed in minutes when launching "Missile" or loading it on a trailer. Further and somewhat surprising dividends of this design are the ease with which the boat can be built and the low cost of materials due to the absence of centerboard, centerboard trunk, steamed planking, and complicated stem and transom assemblies.We use that stuff to grow Tabasco peppers.

Shoot, you could buy a race ready Etchells 22 on a trailer for less than it would cost to build that boat.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/1/2/1/6/1121608_1.jpg

[Scott Widmier]

Take a look at the Minicup. The plans are very detailed and, best of all,free! Plus there is an active group of builders and a BBS BYYB (http://www.byyb.org) to turn to. The Minicup is very fast but a lot more stable than a Sunfish.

Here is the link: fast daysailers (http://www.stevproj.com/FastSailrs.html)

http://www.stevproj.com/MiniCup2.jpg
http://www.stevproj.com/MiniCupDrg1.jpg

[bill ladd]

Wow, thanks. So much to think about. After looking at Svensons and getting a better idea for the size of missle, it seems a bit wee for the three of us. I had been planning to build a runabout (stinkboat), but one of my building buddies is working hard on me to build a sailer. When I found Missle on the Goodchild site, it looked like a relatively easy project. Something to cut our teeth on. Sigh...there's so many nifty craft of all types out there. And I always seem to fall for the most impractical ones, like Flyer (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5415.htm), or Flash (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5536.htm). Oh, hell, We'll figure it out soon enough. Thanks for the info, guys. I'll keep you posted.

bill

p.s. Wayne -- I was wondering how one bolted that keel on? If one has to take it off to trailer it, wouldn't the boat be off the trailer and in the water before it could be reinstalled? Seems like a pain in the butt to bolt it on underwater. Maybe I'm missing something.

p.s.s. Wayne -- look me up when you cruise by.

[ 12-16-2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: bill ladd ]

[Steve Clark]

Gee wiz. If you are going to all the trouble, build the 110. Plans are available from the class. There are old keels available for next to nothing. The class is a good bunch who like building and sailing these boats and are knowledgable and freindly (at least in my opinion) and the boat is a classic design.
Finally, if you do the job right, you will have something someone might actually want to buy when you are done with it and are ready for the next boat.
Back in the stone age (before trapezes) we used to sail 110s 3 up. Sop it can be done and be lots of fun.
$.02 from Clark

[Venchka]

Originally posted by bill ladd:
...
p.s. Wayne -- I was wondering how one bolted that keel on? If one has to take it off to trailer it, wouldn't the boat be off the trailer and in the water before it could be reinstalled? Seems like a pain in the butt to bolt it on underwater. Maybe I'm missing something.

p.s.s. Wayne -- look me up when you cruise by.I personally think that the on/off fin keel is difficult at best and BS at worst. I would also question the size of the steel bits and pieces. 1/4" plate and 2 1/2x2 1/2x1/4 angles seem too light for this application.

If/when Elisabeth Grace and I get anywhere near the N.C. coast I'll give you a shout.

[Keith Wilson]

Looking closely at the plans, the keel is perhaps not as flimsy as it appears. It's only 28 or 30" deep, and the weight on the bottom is only 200#, so although it may flex some, it will probably be stong enough. I'd bet the flanges won't be a problem. I really don't know what they were thinking about with the "removable keel" business; taking it off in the water does not seem at all practical, and carrying it around would take two people. Perhaps one could remove it to store the boat at the end of the season? Wierd.

On closer examination, the design looks like a knockoff of the 110, done so they'd have something to print in the magazine. Did you note the coaming of "1/4 tempered hardboard"? The design was not a howling sucess, since there isn't a "Missile Class" still racing, although that may have nothing to do with the virtues of the boat. I've never heard of C. T. Allen, the designer, and Google didn't turn up anything else by him. If I were going to spent the time and effort to build a boat like this, I think I'd build a real International 110 unless there was a really good reason that Missile would be better. You know the 110 is a good boat, it would be not much harder to build and a lot easier to sell, and you could race it if you like.

In fact, there are several project boats that look quite promising for FREE on the 110 class association web site (http://www.110class.com/forsale.htm) . OTOH, I can certainly understand wanting to build your own boat from scratch.

[ 12-16-2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[John Bell]

I think the 'removable' aspect presumes the boat will be launched and retrieved on a lift, rather than a ramp.

I also wholeheartedly agree that you could do better with a different boat than this one for a couple of reasons. First, it isn't big enough for you and your two partners. Second is the draft. Now I don't know much about the Pamlico sound area, but is it a place where a fixed fin keel with a 3 foot draft isn't going to be a problem? Seems to me that a centerboard boat would be more practical.

However, if this is the kind of boat you want just because it appeals to you on some sort of visceral level, I'll second the notion of building an International 110 for the reasons already offered above.

[bill ladd]

Steve, Keith and John -- Thanks, the 110 is a fine looking boat. I'm sending a check to Tom Craig today ($40 for plans and a 30-page manual). Don't know if there are any 110 owners in my neck of the woods. I'll ask Mr. Craig.

bill

John -- I'm in WIlmington now. Plenty of deep water to be found.

[ 12-16-2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: bill ladd ]

[Keith Wilson]

Cool! Look at the older pictures of the 110, and you'll see they they have a very distinctive paint job which really makes the boat look a LOT better IMHO - still unusual, but downright elegant. It's sort of a painted border around the rectangular sides with rounded inside corners. If I were going to build one, I'd certainly paint it that way. And check the "for sale" page on the class site for keels - in fact, maybe you could get a whole dead boat for hardware, sails, etc., probably a lot cheaper than buying it new.

[ 12-16-2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Venchka]

A proven design works everytime versus a pig in a poke!

Now, imagine the COOL factor of blasting around aboard that Etchells 22! Always was and always will be a great looking boat!

While were at it, have you talked to the folks at B & B Yacht Designs in your neck of the woods? Their Bay River skiffs (15'-17') and Core Sound designs (17'-20') could work if you change your mind about the International 110.

B & B Yacht Designs (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/)

[JimConlin]

110's are great fun.
I'd look real hard for a used one before i undertook to build one from scratch.

[bill ladd]

Fellas -- I've heard, to paraphrase, "get a used one rather than build," more than once on this post. ??? I see that there are a number of free or very reasonably priced 110s available (all of which are very long drives from me). What's the gig? Are the 110s nightmares to build?

Hell, I live in Wilmington, NC. I could buy a boat today -- there are hundreds of boats for sale in the paper, and tons in front yards with "for sale" signs on them each day.

I'm here 'cause I want to build boats. If the 110 is a righteuos bitch to build, please let me know. (Although getting a well-worn hull to scavange for gear is not a bad idea).

all the best, and y'all have a merry Christmas,
bill

[Steve Clark]

Bill,
I think the "buy one rather than go to the trouble of building it" is be cause there are plenty of sound used boats that will 1) cost less to buy than it will take you to build and 2) get you on the water much sooner.
As I understand it, you are in it for the thrill of the chase more than for the utility of just getting afloat in something.
This leads me to believe that you are willing to put in the effort to build something nice. This is close to my heart as I believe that even the simplest project is going to cost more and be more trouble than shopping the classifieds, so take on something that you will enjoy building and will be proud of at the end.
110s are slab sided. there is a little spring to the sheer, but not much. There is moderate rocker and a little arch to the bottom. This is really minor, but makes the bottom a bit stiffer and adds some elegance to the design. It is easily within what compoundability of plywood. The old boats had straight frames with plywood gussets. There are no bevel changes, so all can be cut on a tablesaw. the stem and stern post are straight without bevel changes. Setting these up straight will be the same no matter what kind of boat you build, you need to take your time and do it right. The only tricky bit in the 110 is the chine logs and sheer clamps. These are pretty big peices and have a generous radius milled/carved into them. These soften the edges and impart a great deal of elegance to the design that otherwise is dog simple even if nicely proportioned. Otherwise the shape is just about the easiest thing to set up and plank that I can imagine. I think nice chines and sheer clamps are always worth the effort and make a really nice project out of something that might look quick and dirty otherwise. But you have to figure out if planing an ~1.5" radius onto 100 feet of chine and sheer is too much.
The keel is bolted to a simple keelson that runs in between the ribs. The rudder post is a vertical pipe. The coamings are pretty straight forward. An opportunity for some nice work with mahogany.
The rigging can get complex. The racing guys love to have everything controllable by purchase systems that can be adjusted while sailing. This can be lots of fun or a confusing pile of spaghetti depending on your point of view. Certainly putting a racing quality boat together is harder than just something that sails. I don't know what your tolerance for racy stuff is, but the 110 class has plenty of guys who spend lots of time making their gear "just right." Certainly much of the complication is unnecessary if you just want a fast attractive little keel boat. Care taken on the details makes it a great project.
SHC

[Steve Clark]

Bill,
I think the "buy one rather than go to the trouble of building it" is be cause there are plenty of sound used boats that will 1) cost less to buy than it will take you to build and 2) get you on the water much sooner.
As I understand it, you are in it for the thrill of the chase more than for the utility of just getting afloat in something.
This leads me to believe that you are willing to put in the effort to build something nice. This is close to my heart as I believe that even the simplest project is going to cost more and be more trouble than shopping the classifieds, so take on something that you will enjoy building and will be proud of at the end.
110s are slab sided. there is a little spring to the sheer, but not much. There is moderate rocker and a little arch to the bottom. This is really minor, but makes the bottom a bit stiffer and adds some elegance to the design. It is easily within what compoundability of plywood. The old boats had straight frames with plywood gussets. There are no bevel changes, so all can be cut on a tablesaw. the stem and stern post are straight without bevel changes. Setting these up straight will be the same no matter what kind of boat you build, you need to take your time and do it right. The only tricky bit in the 110 is the chine logs and sheer clamps. These are pretty big peices and have a generous radius milled/carved into them. These soften the edges and impart a great deal of elegance to the design that otherwise is dog simple even if nicely proportioned. Otherwise the shape is just about the easiest thing to set up and plank that I can imagine. I think nice chines and sheer clamps are always worth the effort and make a really nice project out of something that might look quick and dirty otherwise. But you have to figure out if planing an ~1.5" radius onto 100 feet of chine and sheer is too much.
The keel is bolted to a simple keelson that runs in between the ribs. The rudder post is a vertical pipe. The coamings are pretty straight forward. An opportunity for some nice work with mahogany.
The rigging can get complex. The racing guys love to have everything controllable by purchase systems that can be adjusted while sailing. This can be lots of fun or a confusing pile of spaghetti depending on your point of view. Certainly putting a racing quality boat together is harder than just something that sails. I don't know what your tolerance for racy stuff is, but the 110 class has plenty of guys who spend lots of time making their gear "just right." Certainly much of the complication is unnecessary if you just want a fast attractive little keel boat. Care taken on the details makes it a great project.
SHC

[johnw]

The only thing that makes the cockpit crowded with three people is the vang. You could put a 'gnav,' or upside down vang, on it. It's a stick to hold the boom down. N.G. Herreshoff was fond of them. The 110 is a total blast to sail. Have fun.

[bill ladd]

John -- Where can I get info. on Herreshoff's "gnav?" I've got "Sensible Cruising Designs." Maybe I'll find an example in there. Thanks for all the input guys, it's priceless.

bill

[JimConlin]

IIRC, the 110's keel was an iron casting of maybe 400 lbs. Buying a dead or near-dead 110 might be the cost-effective way to acquire that part.

[bill ladd]

...oh, I think I get it now -- a pole from the mast at an angle downward to the boom. Cool.

bill

[johnw]

Right. And it was Captain Nat who liked it. His son, L. Francis, did use it on some R boats.

There is something very 17th Century about the Missle's cod's head, mackerel tail design. I'm glad you're going for the 110. Keels are available from the class organization for cheap.

[Steve Clark]

Other boats with Gnavs or compression vangs are Vanguard's Nomad, The 29er and 49er, Laser 4000, and Musto Skiff. Bruce Schwab had one on Ocean Planet. Easiest way to do this is to have a slider on top of the boom which you pull forward with a purchase. Its a little tougher with a bolt rope foot as on the 110, but there is a way around anything.
SHC

[bill ladd]

Ok, well, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Thanks guys.

bill