Trailer Sailer Rig

[Roger Long]

I’m getting tired of scrolling down to the bottom of the “Design Proposal” thread and this is a good time to break.

I’m going to proceed with the 24 foot, Class 2 Hitch, boat. It’s plenty of boat and it will be easier to expand it later into a maxi transportable version than to go the other way.

When and if we get to the larger boat, it will probably be a cat schooner with unstayed masts for reasons I talk about then. The trailer-cruiser, however, needs the lightest and easiest to erect masts possible. There is just no way around engineering reality. That means stays.

The shortest and lightest spars are going to be on a sliding gunter rig and that is a top contender. I’ve decided against it though. Despite everything I’ve done to maximize initial stability, this is still a very light boat with the ballast carried very high. It also has generous freeboard and resultant parasitic windage. Weight and cost indicate a very small engine so windward performance is vital. Once set up, the gunter will have more weight and less efficient aerodynamics. It also won’t support a rig with characteristics I want for other reasons.

Jibs are the most efficient contributors to windward drive. Getting the rig as far forward as possible lets the centerboard be moved forward as well, freeing up the cabin. A bowsprit helps the appearance of a plumb stemmed boat. Large ground tackle is essential on a vessel with a weak engine and a bowsprit makes anchor handling easier; especially on the foredeck of a rather light craft.

The lack of any place for an outer head stay is another strike against the Gunter and the fore triangle gets pretty low aspect with a bowsprit if it is a sloop. Roller reefing is a pain on a trailer boat due to the delicate foils. Changing jibs, you don’t even what to think about. Two headsails will be very handy if the wind comes up quickly and the outer can be a less easily damaged roller furling sail on a wire. It’s also a comfort to have two headstays with a deck stepped mast.

So, it’s going to be a masthead cutter. The staysail can be self tacking. I wouldn’t use a club as it’s a pain on the foredeck and hurts the efficiency. I would use three sheets. One goes to the mast and can be used for short periods of tacking without sheet tending. The sail will belly out but the boat will be controllable and still work to windward. The other two sheets will be the conventional arrangement. Much of the strain is taken by the center sheet so there is much less pull required on the outer. They basically shape rather than hold the sail. I think it was Frank McLeer who came up with this arrangment.

I’ll see if I can work the rig out at reasonable mast weight without spreaders as they are another thing that can ruin your whole day on the ramp if they get damaged.

I’m a big fan of daggerboards. If you want a boat that can poke around in the shallows with a centerboard bouncing up and down, it could easily be accommodated in this design and I probably will draw it as an option. I see it as being sailed more like a keel boat. The main board goes down when you launch her and comes up when you take her out. A daggerboard is light and easily replaced. You could even carry a spare on a cruise far from home.

The daggerboard trunk will also serve as the mast stanchion and is a primary structural support. There will be a second board in the cockpit which lets the main board be pushed far forward out of the cabin as well as getting it under the mast.

The second board will let the balance of the boat be easily adjusted. On long, downwind runs, you might raise the main board to produce exceptional directional stability. In gnarley conditions, removing the aft board would produce enough weather helm that the boat would round up almost immediately in strong gusts. The boat should also balance well under staysail alone. Removal of the aft board would create an additional large scupper in the cockpit.

The rudder is just an idea at this point, something that will let the boat be steered to the trailer with minimum draft under power. There are other possible configurations.

Here’s how it’s shaping up at this point:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Sketch3.jpg

[JimD]

I like the not too big main and room for a backstay and glad there is a staysail. The big roller furled jib and bowsprit I can live with but I would probably make it a plank and pullpit arrangement for myself as I hate the idea of not being able to handly reach the jib tack (although I realize others think I'm a bit irrational about that). Assuming you need to get around a 12 degree angle fo the shrouds will theygo all the way to the edge of the flush deck with chain plate on the side, and if so limit close hauling the jib at all? But I'm sure you've thought of that.

[Roger Long]

I would go with the plank bowsprit as well. That's what I'm intending to show (note that it is fairly thin).

The jib fairlead should land right on the 12 degree line. With the belly in the sail is should work out about right with side chainplates; especially if I can get away with a spreaderless rig. Moving the chainplates in would make spreaders inevitible and increase the weight of the mast.

The shrouds may increase the required sheeting angle slightly but you aren't going to strap a boat like this in board hard like a racing boat anyway.

[PVanderwaart]

John Welsford's Penguin has some similarity to your proposal: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/penguin/index.htm
John reports that his boat has good sail-carrying power, and pictures to prove it. He has taken a different slant on the construction, cabin and rig.

Tens of thousands of Catalina 22 owners have proven that a mast of the size you contemplate can be raised without too much trouble, although a little planning and good gear help a lot.

The practical advantages of the raised deck are compelling, but the esthetics are ticky. The Stone Horse is the first example the comes to everyone's mind, but I'm not a big fan of its looks. Ending the cabin short of the stem can sometimes help. Bolger's Triple Keel sloop is an example.

[Dave Hadfield]

I like the way the shrouds are set up so that none are forward of the mast. That means you only have to disconnect the 2 forestays to lower it. You don't have to touch the shrouds or the backstay.

Everything possible should be done to keep the mast light, so that you can let it down unassisted, using nothing more than your own muscles. I did this with the Mac26 by tieing a line onto the forestay, taking a wrap around a pulpit post forward, then leading it back to me at the maststep. I'd pay out the line slowly as the mast pivoted down, walking aft, gradually taking its weight as it came horizontal, then nestling it into the wooden crotch prepared for it.

Also with 2 forestays, you can erect the mast using only the inner forestay to hold it up, initially. This may be handy if you want to trailer the boat (and rig and launch it) with the bowsprit removed. Then, once clear of the trailer-post, you can install the plank bowsprit and connect the outer forestay.

I also like the raised flush deck. All you need below is a good place to sit, but this must be comfortable! It is imperative that there be a truly pleasant place below to sit and read. Elimination of side-decks helps to accomplish this -- no ledge in the back of your head. Personally I'd like to see a pop-top option here, or some way of increasing the hatch size beyond what is usual. After living with that arrangement for 9 seasons, I'm a complete fan of it. It makes a little dog-kennel into a spacious, airy, brightly-lit room.

I think you're capturing a very attractive "look" (at least to me!) The profile looks pugnacious and capable. I would've voted to stretch the bows out another 2 ft, but never mind, it's looking great!

Daggerboards will not work for me. I know for absolute fact that the places I would trailer-sail-to involve striking the bottom from time to time. In fact, many of the Canadian wilderness lakes and rivers I'd take it to do not have charted depths at all, just topo maps. I think tandem devices of some kind are a great idea, but for me they would have to pivot. One possible exception might be a (?off-)centerboard forward and a shallow daggerboard in the cockpit for trim and for downwind runs. Perhaps it could be angled forward so that if you strike a rock it would be pushed up in it's case -- it wouldn't twist under load much if it was short.

This is a great project to be a part of!

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by PVanderwaart:
The practical advantages of the raised deck are compelling, but the esthetics are ticky. Yes, the most important practical advantage in my mind being the tremendous reserve buoyancy on what is a capsizable boat. It could be the difference between living and dying.

The biggest aestetic problem is that all flush deck boats are going to look pretty much like a Stone Horse if done right. I'm sure my 21 foot sloop never caught on because everyone figured there already was a Stone Horse. It's a very different boat.

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
Daggerboards will not work for me. I will definitely draw a pivot centerboard version. It will also be well forward. I would leave the aft one as a daggerboard. In shallow water, you can just pull it up and live with the increased weather helm. You are not likely to be driving hard in those conditions anyway.

[Buddy]

Comments on your rig. I have had a 22 foot daggerboard sloop since new in 1977. For any load a 3500 boat could stand up to, two shrouds set a bit more aft are more than sufficient strength, and coupled with a fractional rig, permit bending the mast with a split back stay to depower a relatively large mainsail rig. Good stuff to delay reefing.I singlehand a lot and it's nice to keep the sail handling drill to a minimum.

Add an aft "ear" to your daggerboard trunk to transfer the load on your deck hinged maststep right down through the boat. Build the board strong, but the trunk stronger. Weight the board to almost neutral bouyancy so it will still float on its side. A single line can move it up and down with winches or pulleys, and "on its edge" the board will stay all the way down and not float up. It will contribute no righting or the opposite, a heeling, moment. It is left free to come up. With a raked board like this, in a hard grounding, the boat will pitch forward, the board retract and away you go. If you want to balance rig on a brisk reach, just bring it up about a long foot. Don't need two boards.

The daggerboard is a great place to put intake and drain through hulls. Use a foil shaped cutout in the bottom of the hull, and a uniform cross section board to eliminate drag. When the board is full up, it should still be low enough to plug hole.

Mind you as you pull the board up for runs, it will stick up in your sail plan. Plan accordingly if you are considering jib booms and such.

I'd make the cutter rig staysail a completely flying rig or an option. LOTS of times, I'd be happy with just one jib to tack over. Never have seen any small cutters routinely sailed with two head sails unless they were headed along the coast on a LONG board.

[Buddy]

That should have read WITHOUT winches or pulleys. My daggerboard drops 5 feet below my hull , fully up I draw 10 inches. Kicked'up rudder draws the same. Board weighs 84 pounds, is seven and a half feet long. With kickup rudder, even on a in the water boat, foils can be kept clear all the time.

[Buddy]

Why do you say jibs are the most efficient contributer of windward drive. The relative proportion of jib to main in the sail plan has shifted toward the jib only because rating rules have "charged more" for a square foot in the main rather than in the foretriangle ( because it is of more benefit) All sailors suffer for what sells production boats, claims to be successful racers. Looking at the ads, the market gets a feel for what a boat should look like.

The relatively large main and small jibs of the majority of classic daysailors ( Lighting, Thistle, Snipe, 420) which aren't designed to "cheat" a racing handicap rule show you whats been proven to work best. Even the modern generation of sport boats, again designed to race level ( but surprising able to"beat" a high handicap), the Melges 24 comes to mind, use the BIG manageable, reefable main rather than three or more headsails to change.

Roller reefing jibs are NO PROBLEM on a trailerable boat. Most new trailerable boats have them stock from the manufacturer, and tons of the old standby
class boats. The racer cruisers are catching on as well. Just don't look for performance in a reefing scheme. Roller furling jib GOOD, roller reefing jib BAD. Pop up or down that free flying staysail.

[Dave Hadfield]

Buddy, if I wallop an unknown solid-rock vertical-faced reef at 6 knots, which occasionally happens where I sail, I want a pivoting board. I have no faith in a daggerboard riding up in a case like that. All the push is aft, not up.

I like the tandem-board idea. My current boat, a long-keeled ketch, will sail herself without an autopilot. I would want that in the trailer-sailor too, since I expect to be solo often. The best way to arrange that quality is with 2 boards.

[Meerkat]

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/21_Foot_Sloop_Wallpaper.jpg

Roger's 21' sloop...

As a cutter and with a full length keel and a simpler construction method, I'd be quite interested!!!!

One question though: take a look at this picture:
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/SwirleyWorld.bmp
and tell me if the "flush-deckedness" is a matter of how the deck edge is trimmed or...?

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Buddy:
Why do you say jibs are the most efficient contributer of windward drive.

Roller furling jib GOOD, roller reefing jib BAD. Most of what you say about jibs is true. They are more efficient because of the clean leading edge. The front half of the jibs on the typical modern boat is efficient because of aerodynamics. The big, overlapping, aft half is "efficient" for racing because of the rating rules and not much else.

That said, a catboat is very efficient to windward because it is just one sail. We're committed to a mast in the middle on a boat like this because the light as possible spar needs a good staying base.

The jib's efficiency on this rig comes in large part from being forward. The farther forward the sail plan is, the greater the heel angle that can be maintained with the same amount of weather helm angle. If we add area to the main, we can't drive the boat as hard although the proportions you describe are probably more efficient in lighter conditions.

Your statements on roller jibs seem contradictory. I agree with the later.

Roller reefing, as opposed to all or nothing roller furling, requires a leading edge foil. Getting a mast up and down often without buggering up one of these expensive and delicate extrusions doesn’t seem very probable to me. A simple wire luff roller furling sail is very rugged.

I don’t think I would bother with either on a boat like this as I would want to get rid of the windage of the rolled sail in conditions where I was down to just the staysail. I would expect to fully reef the main on this boat before taking down the jib with a good downhaul and lashing it to the lifelines. The staysail and fully reefed main would then be the heavy weather rig with the staysail alone if you really got caught out.

If you and others can confirm that roller reefing foils are actually reasonable to deal with while rigging and de-rigging, I’d like to hear it.

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
[QBa simpler construction method, I'd be quite interested!!!!
[/QB]Funny you say that as the 21 foot sloop was designed to be very simple to construct, at least for traditional methods. Don't let the appearances fool you, lapstrake is much easier than caravel. This boat could also be easily strip planked.

[Meerkat]

I was thinking in terms of "modern" glued plywood lapstrake. Your design shows a plethora of ribs compared to those...

Dudly Dix' "Cape Cutter 19" or "Cape Henry 21" are good examples of what I mean. They also manage a good looking hull with only 3 planks/side (above the bottom planks).

http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21wallis1.jpg

http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21sec.jpg
http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21marconi.gif

http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21.htm

If only it didn't have that ruddy great c/b trunk eating up the cabin! :eek:

Another option is a stub-keel with the c/b in the keel and not intruding above the sole in the cabin...

Also, Roger: would you comment on whether or not it's a matter of how one trim's the hull/deck to achieve the look the green boat (pic above) has in contrast to your 21'er? No offense, but I find the green boat's look more appealing than your 21'er - or the Stone Horse and others of similar appearance too!

[ 04-26-2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
I was thinking in terms of "modern" glued plywood lapstrake.

No offense, but I find the green boat's look more appealing than your 21'er - or the Stone Horse and others of similar appearance too!This design we're playing around with here might well end up built much like the one in your picture. It's just easier to think in round terms at this point.

As for the green thing you posted looking better..

Well, not everyone can be helped.

[Buddy]

Roller furling works well, requires no delicate foil. Roller reefing with the sailmakers foam patches etc always leaves a lot to be desired in terms of sail shape and speed, IMHO.
Even the gollygee racers are coming with roller furling these days. I'd have no problem securing the furled tube snake of a headsail tacked on the deck, working right from the cockpit.

I've got a 15' catboat and yes, they are weatherly rigs, not necessarily weatherly hulls and foils. With a headstay and two shrouds, set aft of the mast about a sixth of the beam. No problems keeping the rig up so far. Much as I love my catboat, moving to the larger 24 foot size boat you have in mind, given the max road beam, the need to keep total weight and hence ballast down, the size of the sail areasplit in halves for a single hander's ease, the weather helm of a cat rig you can't keep way upright, the more universal familiarity of the sloop (& cutter) rig and thus sales potential, I'd stay with a sloop rig. Wouldn't rule out a gaff rig alternate option though on such a traditional looking boat. Would make sure you had a proper boom either way, and suggest like crazy a loosefooted mainsail in this size boat for sure.

[Buddy]

Dave, the only vertical(faux) rock obstacles I've ever encountered were equestrian jumps, but I have grounded on rocky shelves cutting island roundings too close. Never had a structural problem, just scraped and gouged up the board's very bottom. Interestly, a swept daggerboard, as opposed to a vertical one, does contribute much directional stability to the boat and requires less steering effort.- like a grocery cart caster in a way. The destructive collision force is reduced as the angle from vertical is increased- that glancing, deflected blow I suppose best describes i.t

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Roger Long:

Well, not everyone can be helped.Indeed - and some of them turn to design as therapy! ;) tongue.gif :D

[Roger Long]

You know, I really put way too much jib on the boat. If you go back to where I posted the picture, you will see that I've revised it.

[Venchka]

Y'all are making a comeback in my direction. Will there be a gaff topsail sloop, leeboard, 2,500 pounds on the trailer, 1,000 pound cargo version anytime soon? :cool:

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Wayne, why leeboards? To keep the cabin free of a centerboard case? I'd rather arrange the interior around the case than have those ugly flippers destroying the boat's profile.

[ 04-27-2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

Jim, you didn't feel the tug on your leg, hey?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[PVanderwaart]

Not to be argumentative, but not all good-looking flush deck boats look like the Stone Horse. For example:
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/f6231af0.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/pvanderwaart/f9ea210f.jpg

This is the Bolger sloop I mentioned before. Bolger's model has firmer bilges than yours, as anyone familar with his work might expect.

There are also possibilites outside the traditional conventions such as the J-24, and Jacques Mertens Vagabonds.

[PVanderwaart]

There is one comment I should have added back when we were discussing displacment: it's your project and you should not move the design away from what originally interested you based on some notion of practicality. If someone wants the boat, they will deal with the tralering problems.

On the subject of the rig, it is a big help in a boat with non-swept spreaders of the chainplates are at the same height as the mast step, or just a bit lower. That way they keep the mast pivoting in the right plane as it goes up and down. The only real problem is dropping it; it can't go off to the side and get a big mechanical advantage to rip up the mast step.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim, you didn't feel the tug on your leg, hey?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Oh yeah? Well I'm going to paint mine pink! Yes, really! :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Roger Long:
You know, I really put way too much jib on the boat. If you go back to where I posted the picture, you will see that I've revised it.Now looks more like it could be sailed as a true cutter and not a sloop with an either/or choice of large or small headsail.

[Roger Long]

So that's it? You all are all done? I should just go ahead and design it?

[Venchka]

Where do we stand on variable lateral plane augmentation appendages? How do we keep these appendages from intruding into the limited cabin space?

Are you planing to run the deck all the way to the stem? Stop the deck/cabin short of the stem to provide a colision bulkhead/anchor well of sorts?

Tell the builder how much, if any, the mold spacing can be varied to produce a longer/shorter boat?

Sail plan options? Anything besides a jib headed main, masthead cutter? Hmmmm...will the present sail plan handle one of those nifty 2-ply headsails that unfolds to make a twin whisker pole, double headsail, mainsail furled downwind rig in the Trades?

Will the boat steer itself with a low tech sheet to tiller arrangement?

Where does the outboard motor go?

How much beer and Maker's Mark will it carry? :D

Were all of my silly questions previously asked and answered? If so, I was never here.

24' hey? I gotta build a bigger boat shed. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 04-29-2005, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[htom]

How about folding bilge board keels? Take a centerboard case, lower it half-way through the hull. Board up, it acts like a bilge keel. Board down, like a bilge board. One on each side, at the front of the bunk or settee, protruding (in this case) so that they're just above the ground when she's on a flat.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Roger Long:
So that's it? You all are all done? I should just go ahead and design it?Yup :D

[John Bell]

What about the arrangement?

Two permanent settee/berths 80" long for tall people. Maybe one quarterberth, but not critical. A shelf for a one burner stove on one side of the companionway and a small basin on the other. Put the head up in the bow, with a hatch overhead for handling the ground tackle. A deep self-draining well behind the stem for wet muddy anchoring things. A place to keep a standard 66 quart ice chest that allows you to access it directly without having to slide it in and out of a cubby.

Outboards make sense to me, but I'd want to be able to raise it under sail.

I have to admit I'm not crazy about the rig, I'd rather see something free standing with a big main and a small jib set flying for reaching and heaving to only. Sort of a Tom Wylie/Nonsuch catboat kind of thing. Problem is that stepping such a mast either requires a substantial tabernacle or superhuman strength and balance to stand it up and drop it into it's keel step. I'd give up the unstayed aspect for a something simpler than the 'clutter' ;) rig. I usnderstand your desire to keep weight aloft down, but since this is a hypothetical boat let's go for broke and spec a lightweight carbon fiber free standing spar!

I hate sailing around at anchor, possibly a small mizzen to be used primarily as a riding sail. Your twin daggerboards may solve that problem though, should you decide to keep them.

Although I prefer them for small boats, I'm not a fan of the daggerboard for such a large boat. How about a pivoting centerboard, off center in the face of a berth?

Hey, you asked for input! :D

[Roger Long]

I agree with you about the rig. If I could put a keel under this boat to move the ballast down about three feet, or make it about two feet wider, it would certainly have unstayed masts.

This is the WBF and I hope this will not remain a theoretical boat. I think wooden masts must remain an option.

The drag of wires is very much unappreciated. I fly a Cessna 172 with a 36 foot wingspan. The drag of the wing is about the same as a 36 foot length of 3/4 inch rope. Think how much drag there is in a rolled up headsail.

One of the main reasons why I would stick with a hanked jib is to be able to clean up the rig when I needed the best performance to windward. The common arrangement of a roller jib inside a permanent headstay is surprisingly inefficient due to disruption of airflow over the jib by the wire and the drag of the stay itself.

The centerboard thing is very much a preference. Mine would be to have a less cluttered interior, easily repaired (or replaced) foils, and to sail much like a keel boat. Shallow water convienience is such a reasonable desire however, that I will probably include at least two options if I get around to actually drawing plans for this boat.

[PVanderwaart]

I've had two boats (19' and 22') with outboards on brackets to the side of the rudder. It's an arrangement that works without being truly satisfactory. Appearance-wise, it seems to be saying "I'm really a pretty boat, but I have this engine on my behind just for now." But of course, the OB is always there, and never pretty. In addition, one of the functions of the typical bracket is to move the OB back so that it does not interfere with the rudder, and the design of the rudder may be somewhat compromised to avoid the OB. The farther aft the motor hangs, the less chop it take to get the blade out of the water.

I think it makes a lot of sense to have a proper centerline OB well, and an inboard rudder. The Bolger Micro illustrates that it can be done even in a very small, very shallow draft boat. It's not going to look worse and it's going to work better.

A twin rudder arrangement might also work, but would certainly not mesh with the style you have in mind.