A new Schooner rig for Waione. comments please.

[John B]

When you’ve owned one boat for a long time, in our case 20 years, every now and again you need to re stimulate interest. I’m not saying I’m unhappy with the old girl but, well, the eye does wander from time to time.
Schooner. That word. Schoooooner. I’ve always loved schooners ,from Peter Duck to Westward. Have a look at my Carrick book on Alden and it will fall open to Malabar VII. There’s new schooooners being built and launched and restored everywhere. The Hedgers in Aus with their Malabar 2. Malabar 10 has been restored, A new Westward has been built. Luke had one, Craigs Magic. They’re everywhere.
Except here in NZ. .There’s one or two... Arcturus, Queen Charlotte(No, She’s gone to Davy Jones with all aboard)mmmm. Jersey Lily ( the Tadpole) and 1 or two more perhaps. Not many here anyway.

It’s becoming self evident that wealth is not something I’m going to be particularly well aquainted with so I must carry on and just get happy with what I’ve got.
So I had this idea. Why not kill two birds with one stone as it were. The last little mid lifey discontent-ish time I had,I ripped out the very mediocre macaroni rig that was in the boat and gaff rigged it. We then went out with it and upped our performance by perhaps 20 % and I’m told we’ve created a new respect for this type of rig about the NZ classic boat community.
Here we are again... sort of “been there done that” and we want something new.
You know where this is going don’t you.

I KNOW, why not re rig Waione as a schooooner? An hour at the coffee table later, there we are.



http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/waione/07bd4ac7.jpg

So . What do you think? Go for it? I mean, I know there are some details to work out. There’s all that extra weight in an extra mast and gear .And I suppose that with our 8’6” beam the mainmast is going to be a bit inconvenient in the cabin . I know the foremast having to move forward from the current position a foot or two will kind of spoil the kids bunks but perform... sheesh will she go.
We set 1020 ft all up including the topsail now, but this new rig sets 1020 ft in just the 4 lowers. When you add the jackyard and fisherman topsails she’ll set about 1400 ft on a 30 ft waterline!.
Yup, we’ll be trucking in 6 knots of breeze, getting topsails down at 10 and reefing at 15. Man, will she go.
And there is the C/E and CLR thing. That needs some work because empirical data accumulated over the last few ( 20) years tells me we need a lead of about 12 % on this boat and that rig is only showing 3%. She’ll probably load up the helm a bit in anything over 6 knots or so but I can fix that. I’m thinking about adding 4 feet to the bowsprit.
Those are just details.
What do you think. Be honest now.

[John B]

Good point. I'm just getting carried away with Craigs thimble thing on Magic.
Do you like the way the fisherman sheets to the main boom.

oops, a post seems to have gone missing.

[ 04-01-2004, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: John B ]

[brian.cunningham]

she’ll set about 1400 ft on a 30 ft waterline!.
:cool: and a lapper to boot! http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

[Stiletto]

John, I remember a reply you gave on another thread stating that schooners proliferated in regions that had the winds that suited. Has climate change affected the Hauraki gulf so much in the last few years? ;)
Then again there was that Elliot of a few years ago that I think some refer to as a schooner,[ I never quite knew what to call it] , and it did quite well as I recall. If you think it will work in your area , go for it. I think they look great, and not just lined up on a bar. tongue.gif

[ 04-01-2004, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Stiletto ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

Basically, I really like the look, though my rough measurements show the foresail gaff long enough that it would overlap the mainmast when horizontal (raising sail, etc.) which is a royal pain in the butt. I also wonder if you have enough beam to get much use out of that much overlap on the foresail leech without continually backwinding the main?

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by John B:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid109/p6c1191ac9c52e341b2f00c407fa1368b/f92a2121.jpg

Those are just details.
What do you think. Be honest now.John you ask... "what do you think?"... changing the most delishuslygorgeoulish boat on the forum to give her an even more dropdead look as a schooner and you ask what you think!!! :eek: Are you mad mate??!! I mean ASK???

JUST DO IT!!!! sure no doubt some contantacourous sourpussed ol wakker will probably mumble in and mutterin into his jaded ol beard say dont nay dont be a dill cant make better than perfek... yarda yarda... ignore em!!! tongue.gif

Waione as a schooner?? oooooooohhhhhhhhhh geeeez the drool factor just went up a notch :cool: if thats possible :D

[John B]

You're right Stiletto, but I just feel like a change. That whole " gentlemen don't go to windward 'thing. Yes I know, I've been intolerant of that sort of statement before but now, now I'm more laid back, more tolerant, more.....more open minded.

Good point about the gaff Todd. It didn't even occur to me.A friend of mine from up Stilettos way has a yawl with the main gaff overlapping the mizzen mast and I've asked him before about whether it's Ok like that. Answer "yes" from him although I'm skeptical.
Not sure whether to have a boom on that foresail or not Brian.I mean a part boom of course. Not the lapping part.

I knew you'd support me Shane.

[ 04-01-2004, 05:27 AM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Ed Burnett]

John,

Schooners tend not to need as much lead as cutters so don't worry if you can't get the sail area quite so far forward.

How about having a look at her with just the one headsail? Those two will be pretty tiny as drawn and it starts to get a bit busy. She's pretty small to be a schooner so keep it simple if you can.

Looks lovely though!

[rbgarr]

Inspired as you are by MAGIC's rig, note that she does not seem to carry a small fisherman topsail like you've drawn in your sketch (which would be very difficult to tack over the gaff bridle and vang), MAGIC seeems to only have a lighter air gollywobbler used when the foreail is stowed. Your desire for fisherman topsails, small, medium or large ("daughter, sister and mother" as we called them on a schooner I once sailed aboard) could be set more easily on a staysail schooner rig. You'll have your hands full with that jackyard topsail anyway!

Good luck!

[MarkC]

I'll vote no.

What was she originally designed to take?

Acturus is for charter - or so I read. Save up and hire it for a afternoon. Acturus is an Alden and he designed many schooners. Go for a sail and get it out of your system.

Anyway, think of the cost.

[J. Dillon]

Maybe I'm getting old and cantankerous but I'd leave well emough alone. ;) She seems perferct now. I can see you really use and enjoy this boat. All the work you envision to re rig and change her and the end result uncertain might prove a big disappointment. :rolleyes:

IMHO get a schooner rig of proven performance and tweek that to perfection, would be a better way to go. :cool:

Good luck whatever course you take.

JD

[MAGIC's Craig]

I've been sitting on my hands, trying to keep them away from the keyboard.....really!! ;)

This is totally objective, mind you. :rolleyes:
For a schooner rig - YES! For a few changes in what you have drawn - yes as well.

That great big main might end up causing a lot of work because reefing the main is usually used as a balancing factor as the apparent wind strength changes with schooners. Maybe a teeny bit smaller? Our fore is actually a tad larger than the bermudian main, for whatever that bit of trivia is worth.

And yes, I would second the suggestion to shorten the gaff in order to permit bringing it down with out klonking the mainmast - do remember to add a couple of inches to its clearance length to permit the attachment of that vang fairlead. :D

Your sailmaker would probably agree that shortening the overlap of the foot of the fore somewhat will actually help both it and the main set when going to weather. Keep the fore gaff well peaked up. Not sure whether I would fuss with that wee fisherman. In light airs, we just dump the fore after hoisting the golly.

And we do find that we spend most of our time sailing with the staysail stowed and the stay out of the way. This really makes it more pleasant to tack in the lighter going with a single large headsail.

My lead of the CE over the CLR was 9-10% theoretically and MAGIC shows light lee helm when ghosting and then can build weather helm as the wind picks up and she heels over....

How do you plan to back up the mainmast head against the pull of the headsail(s) via the triatic? Just details, really.

This should be an entertaining thread, no?

What a lovely sight she would be!!

Objectively yours,

Craig Johnsen
MAGIC

[Paul Pless]

John B

After many years of being absolutely in love with schooners I have only in the last couple of monthes been able to talk myself into maybe liking to try a cutter. One of the main reasons for this change of heart was looking at your beautiful cutter and your writings about her performance.

And now you go and do this to me.

This has got to be an April Fool's Joke - you troll.

Paul

[Venchka]

Oh, good grief! Only Monday I thanked you for guiding me to the Light, i.e. Gaff Sloop and away from the Dark Side. Or was it Gaff Sloop is the Dark Side? No worries. Either way works for me.

Now you do this. Shall I phone Mr. Gartside and have him do a schooner rig for my wee boat as well?

I'm not buying it either! Nope. No way.

[Dave Hadfield]

John, much as I drool over schooooners, you'll be making her rig heavier. That means you'll have to add ballast (she's only 8.5ft wide). The whole boat will be heavier. Do you really want a heavier, less responsive boat?

Sure you'll have the sail power to move it, but it won't feel the same and managing the rig will require a lot more activity. And probably a bigger engine.

On the other hand you've got a crew coming along and there'll be lots of hands for all those strings....

Is there a way you could make the 2 new masts for the same weight as what you have now (including topmast)? That might be a way out. Hollow? Bird's mouth? Carbon gaffs and topmasts?

My gut feeling is leave her alone -- her gaff rig and topsail makes her wonderfully distinctive as she is. There's also the history angle -- you're messing with heritage here. Finally, isn't the schooooner (I know, I get the same shiver when a say it) rig more of a North American thing? Are you trying to make her something she really isn't?

Don't get mad at me John. That sail plan is spectacular. She'd be a stunner. But sometimes girls look better in jeans and a T shirt rather than all dolled up.

Your call completely, of course. I'd give you a bottle of scotch to sail on her either way. (Not much help, am I?)

[MAGIC's Craig]

:D :D :D LOL

Is there an emoticon for "hook, line and sinker"? Sheesh!

Oh, well, much more fun than listening to the news or the political hype.

good on you, John.

BTW, your sailplan makes her look quite similar to the Crowinshield-designed MARTHA in her original rig - less the overlapping fore.

Craig Johnsen

[John B]

I'm beginning to run into some grief here guys.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid109/p8b49f321d9c876f8198257de0606f8e6/f927e055.jpg
see my hat on the sole. Thats where the mainmast would go.
#1 My wife says she will leave me if I put a large bit of wood there.
#2 I've had a phonecall from the classicboatpolice and they say Quote." if you put a schooner rig in that boat I will gut you"
#3 a man with a very quiet, yet strangely coarse voice wants to know if I like horses or parts of them.
#4 My kids say they will leave me if I put a foremast through their bunk.
So it looks like I may have to just put up with this for the time being.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/waione/wai_1.jpg
I do have an idea about a nice little yawl rig though......

[ 04-01-2004, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Art Read]

Damn! And here I'd already sketched the schooner MELINDA, complete with gollywobbler and yankee jib...

[Ed Burnett]

Hmm. The mast in the saloon would be a bit of a "feature".

Why not just make the middle bit of it removable - put a hinge in it and fold it down so it becomes a saloon table! That would be a handy spot to display your new horse ornaments.

If your kids leave then you don't need a forward bunk anymore.

I once drew a 16' foot boat with three masts and four mast steps - just two on Waione should be a piece of cake.

[Stiletto]

I love your stained glass!

[John B]

Sigh. It's a pretty drawing. and I really do love schooners....

and I've sailed Arcturus. just 2 handed too. She went like a bird.

[Venchka]

John B,

I am glad you "fessed up" before Paul Gartside returned my call. :D

[Dave Hadfield]

Yeah, it was an April 01 effort, I know, but it was the finest-looking April Fool's sailplan I've ever seen....

[Paul Pless]

John

You had me going for most of the day.

It was a great joke and could only have been pulled off by one like yourself who is one of the most well respected members here. I always enjoy your pictures and stories, and will look forward to seeking your advice again and again.

Thanks for the great laugh,

Paul

[Hwyl]

Your post made my day, not because I was fooled (which I was) but because after you mentioned that the lead would be less, I was going to mention that the lead needs to be less on a schooner, but then Ed Burnett beat me to it. So I had the satisfaction of having at least one thought that was alike to a great mind.

Please don't tell me that you knew all about the lead and that it was a "red herring" to make it seem more true.

I do remember someone trying to sail a ketch backwards in a schooner regatta in Jost Van Dyke (BVI)

[ 04-02-2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Lucky Luke]

April's fool :D
Ah, you had me buying it too... and I was going to reply to it redface.gif
Just show how seriously we take things, sometimes!

BEST OF THE YEAR, Mr B (....Bean?), congratulations!

Still laughing :D :D :D

[Mike Field]

:D Ha. Good wind-up, Bertie.

[skuthorp]

Yeah...all that.....but doesn't the sketch look georgeous!! :cool:

[John B]

Ya know.. as time goes on and circumstances change, maybe this could be a goer after all. I mean , the old girl is laid up so to speak.. perhaps a rig change would be a good thing.

[snow]

Ya know.. as time goes on and circumstances change, maybe this could be a goer after all. I mean , the old girl is laid up so to speak.. perhaps a rig change would be a good thing.

Five years - surely you could have come up with a new April fools joke - as the say - its a long time between drinks:D

[PeterSibley]

John B

After many years of being absolutely in love with schooners I have only in the last couple of monthes been able to talk myself into maybe liking to try a cutter. One of the main reasons for this change of heart was looking at your beautiful cutter and your writings about her performance.

And now you go and do this to me.

This has got to be an April Fool's Joke - you troll.

Paul


Posting date Noted !!:D:D

[John B]

Just for old times sake.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Joshua Slocum sang the praises of the Chinese rig as the handiest of them all - and made a famous voyage using just such a rig.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I'm biased, but it's a beautiful looking rig.

The more I think about it the more I like it, Stop jokin' around and do it.

[Paul Pless]

> :)




thanks for fixing the pic

[Tom Hunter]

I think she is underpowered with the rig you proposed.

You need longer overhangs on the bowsprit and main boom, something more like this:

http://www.schoonerman.com/sailingterms/6080ros4.jpg

She may get a bit tender as a result, but if you add moveable outside ballast:

http://www.floatline.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/06/spinsheet_log_canoe_jaydee_biresch.jpg

Then you would have a real winner. Hell, change the rig, find a crew willing to sit on a plank for a day or three and you could take line honors in the coastal classic. You would be a legend John, A TRUE LEGEND!!!

[Wiley Baggins]

I'm beginning to run into some grief here guys.
#1 My wife says she will leave me if I put a large bit of wood there.
#2 I've had a phonecall from the classicboatpolice and they say Quote." if you put a schooner rig in that boat I will gut you"
#3 a man with a very quiet, yet strangely coarse voice wants to know if I like horses or parts of them.
#4 My kids say they will leave me if I put a foremast through their bunk.
So it looks like I may have to just put up with this for the time being.


John B,

#1 - That's a problem - leave that for further ruminations to achieve a solution.
#2 - Bureaucrat! Just kidding, he's probably a mate.
#3 - Surely you have a favor you can call in.
#4 - Well, they were bound to leave the nest someday. :)

It's truly a lovely concept. Maybe the concept will be like the memory of Paris in "Casablanca."

PS - Did you see my PM on the Fife

[Jay Greer]

My first response to the sheer and sail plan is that it is very nicely balanced in appearance. Having sailed a lot of schooners, I can say that if your area calls for working to weather a lot, you will be better off with the original rig. Just the mention of the narrow beam tells me that the boat was not intended to be schooner rigged. There is not enough beam to offer the stability of hull form that a schooner needs. I would opt for the original plan. I might add that it is quite beautiful as a gaff rigged sloop!
Jay

[johnw]

On the east coast of the US, the land-sea wind system means that between ports you're often on a reach. That's why east coast Americans love schooners. Also, a big schooner can be handled by a smaller crew than a big cutter.

So, are you having trouble handling your cutter rig, or is this daydream all about aesthetics? If you want a handier rig, I'd go with a yawl.

[John B]

Thankyou for all the thoughtful responses. I wish I could have been there to immediately respond myself , but I've been sleeping.
On the east coast of the US, the land-sea wind system means that between ports you're often on a reach. That's why east coast Americans love schooners. Also, a big schooner can be handled by a smaller crew than a big cutter.

So, are you having trouble handling your cutter rig, or is this daydream all about aesthetics? If you want a handier rig, I'd go with a yawl.


We haven't really got enough to do with the current rig so I thought some more string would be nice.

[John B]

Hey Wiley.. I don't recall seeing any fife PM? But there seems to be lot I don't recall these days.


Yes Yawl. Yup. That would definitely have happened if we'd continued to cruise her. I'd have made a new boom and got a new mainsail so she could be retrofitted back to the big main for the classics racing.

[Chip-skiff]

Too bad— I was thinking more in terms of decor. Where that mast was going to poke down through the cabin, you could give it a traditional sort of treatment:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3158061715_a3d7f5c08c.jpg?v=0

Wouldn't add strength, but it would add interest.

[Wiley Baggins]

Hey Wiley.. I don't recall seeing any fife PM? But there seems to be lot I don't recall these days.

I doubled your ration! :)