Wee Seal rig

[Kevin5]

Would it possible to change Wee Seal's rig to cutter, similar to ELLY or Blixten's? I've seen the rig on Farne Islander.

[Venchka]

All things are possible. Talk to Iain.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

There is already rumored to be at least one alternate rig for "Wee Seal": a gaff-yawl.

[Venchka]

This is really scary folks. I know there is a post in Building/Repair showing the YAWL rig for GREY SEAL. Trouble is, the link is broke. Compound that with the SEARCH thingie being FUBAR and that puts us in deep do-do.

Bringing everyone up to date: two plans exist. Wee Seal from way back when. Wee Seal Mk. II plans from maybe 6-8 months ago. Both rigs are similar but a wee bit different: gunter sloop. With just a tad over 18' to work with, Iain might be hard pressed to make a cutter work on Wee Seal Mk. II. The long bowsprit could be a real nuisance to trailer. Or maybe not. Only Iain knows for sure. What might be feasible is a proper gaff sloop rig. A short bowsprit for the jib and a smaller heavy air jib tacked near the stemhead. The headsails are flown one at a time. Lots of gaff sloop rigged boats have been designed. Maybe that would work.

Man, there's a lot of good stuff here on the Forum that may have ventured into the Twilight Zone. The Search feature hasn't worked right in weeks.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 05-02-2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Meerkat]

My understanding is that bowsprits on smaller craft largely came into being when people were changing from gaff to marconi rigs back in the year "dot". Rather than restep the mast further aft, a bowsprit was rigged to give more "headspace". (OBVIOUSLY, I'm not talking about those rich folk's gaff yachts with the 90' bowsprits and the odd dozen of headsails flying at the same time! ;) tongue.gif )

Supposedly, a true cutter is an all-inboard rig, with the mast stepped further aft then on a sloop.

[Kevin5]

I'm not an expert but according to John Leather a cutters mast is located 2/5 of the waterline length and not forward more than 1/3 WL length.

[Venchka]

Meerkat,

Seems reasonable to assume that as hulls shrank the bowsprit replaced the deck space lost. The sails stayed in the same place. I have no clue where the term sloop came from nor what the true definition is. Billy Atkin always refers to his boats with gaff headed mains, short bowsprit and jib as Sloops. He calls the jib headed main, no bowsprit with jib rigs knockabouts. That's good enough for me.

Wee Seal Mk. II with Prairie Islander's sail plan, hey? Hmmm....might be nice. Or not. Depends. Would you like to wrestle the jib on the end of a long stick when it's dark, cold, nasty and you're up to your bum in alligators?

Ask Iain. The rest of us are just running our mouths.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Kevin5]

Wee Seal Mk. II with Prairie Islander's sail plan, hey?

Yeah, that's what I had in mind. I'll ask. I think he is going to tell me that WS is too light to carry more sail, we'll see.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Kevin5:
... I think he is going to tell me that WS is too light to carry more sail, we'll see.You didn't mention more sail area too. That's a whole nuther can of worms.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Kevin5]

No, I just thought the cutter rig would mean more sail area.

[Venchka]

Actually, I'm the one who didn't contemplate more sail area in the cutter. Maybe you need a little extra sail area where you sail. Provide for easy and quick reefing when you have to.

Take a look at Wee Seal II...

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/weeseal2plan1.jpg

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/weeseal2plan2.jpg

The mast is stepped on the forward end of the cabin. The strongest part. Moving the mast aft means moving that compression post aft. Is that good or bad? Adding a bowsprit means making the mast longer to keep the forestay at the same angle. The taller mast could be bad if you launch/recover a lot from the trailer. Makes you wonder if Iain didn't think about all of this and develop the most appropriate sail plan for the boat. Certainly the simplest, easiest to build and least expensive sail plan. You might get to a point of rapidly diminishing returns if you try to change the sail plan.

A cutter rig because "I like the looks better" probably isn't a valid reason. On a boat this small every piece has to function perfectly with every other piece. If you're like most of us, you have to be able to sail the boat efficiently and safely alone.

Write to Iain. Heck, he may have already drawn up alternate sail plans. I'm probably all wrong. Won't be the first nor the last time.

One thing is for "for sure and for certain". Every time I look at those drawings of Wee Seal II my boat lust and double-ender-itis acts up something awful. I'm just noticing what appear to be watertight bulkheads fore and aft. Very nice touch on a small boat. Small cockpit. Nice and safe. As 18 footers go, that's a honey!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[PVanderwaart]

If you go back to the 1850's when a huge controversy raged between supporters of English Cutters and American sloops, the biggest difference was in hull shape, but the rigs were also different. The Cutters had running bowsprits, so they had a staysail permanently tacked at the stem. The jib, and jib topsail flew from the sprit when it was extended. The Sloops had fixed sprits, and many only had one jib.

Most yacht designers today consider a cutter to have a staysail tacked at the stem, and a jib tacked to a sprit.

[Kevin5]

Makes you wonder if Iain didn't think about all of this and develop the most appropriate sail plan for the boat.

I thought of this as well. I don't want to complicate things but can't help but ask "what if?" It is a beautiful boat...I want..I want...I want...

[Kevin5]

How do I insert a jpeg here?

[Kevin5]

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2127108399&idx=1

This is a very crude cut and paste Farne Islander's rig on Wee Seal. Just wanted to see what it would look like.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Kevin5:
How do I insert a jpeg here?Kevin, you can't post directly. You have to use an internet photo service such as Imagestation. Then copy the photo's url from Imagestation, and add it to your forum post by clicking on the IMAGE icon (beside all the instant graemlins) and pasting the url into the image window that pops up. Somebody else can probably explain it better.

[Kevin5]

http://www.imagestation.com/pictures/sraid167/pd5c400a346f443701fa80e624980f6a5/f4365a8d.jpg

[Kevin5]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid167/pd5c400a346f443701fa80e624980f6a5/f4365a8d.jpg

[Kevin5]

Finally!

[JimD]

Supposedly, a true cutter is an all-inboard rig, with the mast stepped further aft then on a sloop The sailers' dictionary I use defines cutter as
'A single masted sailboat with the mast stepped farther aft than in a sloop to allow for a double headsail, the outer being called the jib topsail and the inner being the staysail.' I asked in a recent thread if it is practical to have an inboard cutter on a boat 20 feet or less but got no responses.

A sloop now means a one masted fore and aft rigged sailboat with a main and one headsail, but it wasn't always. It used to refer to a variety of small vessels of different rigs. Rogers Origin of Sea Terms says the word may come from the Dutch word 'sloep', a vessel that sails well. I think Slocum referred to Spray as a sloop, not a yawl.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Kevin5:
Finally!After all that let me be your first critic :D I think all that sail looks out of place on Wee Seal's hull. How about Paul Gartside's Surprise II? http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid167/p796bb22d5614234de590f2c785632064/f43642f5.jpg

[Kevin5]

Yeah, it probably is too much sail for her. I was just trying to see what it would look like.
I like Paul's designs, but trying to keep it trailerable. I'm sure the gunter sloop rig is just fine on WS.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Kevin5:
. . . I like Paul's designs, but trying to keep it trailerable. . .Paul does trailerable, too.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/Spartan2-110.jpg

Wayne

[JimD]

Too bad Paul won't design more trailer boats with a simpler construction method. Most of them are double planked one way or another, often a combo of epoxy glued strip with epoxy veneers over top. A bullet proof hull perhaps, but I shudder at the thought of do it yourself building that way

[ 05-07-2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

OK, how much is everyone willing to pony up for the Paul Gartside designed, glued lap plywood hull, gaff topsail sloop or cutter pocket cruiser? All it takes is time and money, y'all.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D