Swaggie 20

[Meerkat]

A note from John Welsford...

I have a Yankinese ( American resident in Japan for 25 years ) coming to stay with us later this year, and he's going to build a 20 ft redesign of Swaggie in there, and then sail it home via Cape Horn, Cape of Good Hope, and Cape Van Leuwin ( bottom corner of Aussie). He has a book contract, and 4 magazines at last count are going to run his articles. Very good advertising.
The boat might interest you, cutter rig, roomy for 20 ft and tough. Now, if we can just get him to post a profile and plan view... ;)

[JimD]

A 20 foot Swaggie with a conventional rig? Where do I sign up? smile.gif

[Venchka]

...and a real cockpit? Trade the 2 forward bunks for a nav. station/setee/place to eat dinner? Move the seats out from under the corner where the cabin roof changes height? That corner looks like a head knocker to my untrained eye.

Way more boat than I need. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Hwyl]

This is from JW's website

The basic premise of the boat is that she is sailed from inside. Her Junk rig is the key to this, the sail being able to be hoisted, reefed and sheeted from the main hatch means that a conventional cockpit and sail handling areas are not really required

So it must really be a new boat, I'd have retained the original Swaggie concept and added Bow and Stern, to end up with a small cockpit and bow area. Write it into the design that these are not to be weighted with cans of Calamari al Tinto or whatever. Maybe squeeze a little more out of the bunk, but retain the draught and beam of the original. You'd end up with a mini pilot house sloop. But with a place to sit and have you cup of tea and ginger biscuits on those nice days off Cape Leewuin. The length would give her an easier motion. It would not satisfy Wayne's desire for a sailing Tardis.

Edited to add, I mean lengthening her to at least 23 feet, I'd look at 26 or 27.

[ 04-21-2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[htom]

I'm inclined to think that much of the increase in size is for stores; the proposed voyage is a good deal longer than 30 days.

[Meerkat]

Well, I've baited John, and hopefully, he'll be along presently with a sketch and/or some commentary for our edification.

I keep wondering how much of a hassle doubling all the planking (plywood) would be, as is called for in the current Swaggie design.

[Venchka]

C'mon, guys. Swaggie, as currently designed, could be loaded with enough stuff to keep one person at sea longer than anybody needs to be at sea. Secondly, you can sail around the world and not be more than 30-45 days between landfalls. Even two people could stay at sea longer than 30 days with Swaggie's cargo capacity. Including a copious rum ration!

Not that it matters. I'm not crossing any oceans. I surely don't need another boat. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
...I keep wondering how much of a hassle doubling all the planking (plywood) would be, as is called for in the current Swaggie design.Piece of cake. 1000% easier than trying to bend plywood the full thickness in one piece. Probably easier to find the thinner plywood as well. Potentially stronger too if you alternated the face grain on the two layers. This last thought could be wasteful of plywood.

Did anyone read John's message at Yahoo! boatdesign group?

John Welsford on panel strength:

I build and test panels regularly, and heres the general rules.
1/ Test panels need to be three panels by three panels, that avoids the free
end effect.
2/ A test panel is usually a replica of the atrea of trhe boat with least
compound curve and widest spaced stringers and frames ( needs some judgementbut
you are looking at the highest risk area)
3/ You need to have a deflection unders load test, and how I do that is to place
a load spreader ( small sandbag) on the center of the panel to be tested, a
lever and weight or hydraulic jack to provide the force, a loadcell in the
system to measure the pressure and a micrometer on the back of the panel to
measure the deflection.
I determine acceptable deflection on a combination of boat use and boat weight
expressed as acellerations.Thats the Load. This is combined with a figure of
deflection as a percentage of how far across the shortest dimension of the panel
it is.( I call it "Panel A")

FOr example, 0.5 g is half the boats loaded weight, 1 g is all of the boats
loaded weight etc.
A really light harbour racer ( sail) gets a figure of 0.4g x 6% of "panel A" A
coastal cruiser goes up to 0.6G at 4%, My little 18 ft ocean cruiser Swaggie is
engineered to 0.8g at 2%. To give you an idea thats equivalent to dropping the
boat from about 25 ft onto sand, and getting a movement in the sides of about
3/16 inches . In practice there will be more damage than that due to point
loading ( and this is where the penetration test comes in) and the security of
fastenings around the edges of the structural unit ( in this case the cold
moulded side panel) .
Pentration is done with a weight, about 2 ft long, 2 1/2in in diameter,
hemispherical end, and dropped onto the panel down a plastic pipe with graduated
markings. I use the "other " panels for this ( I build a replica side of the
boat 3 x 3 panels remember so have 9 to play with) and I do comparitive testing
as few absolutes exist. I do though try and achieve a skin which will stand
close to the weight of the boat in PSi before exceeding the Youngs Modulus of
the skin ( thats the amount of deformation it will stand before not being able
to return to its original shape)

John W
If I needed a stout boat, Swaggie would be on the list.

Suppose we give John a break and let him get his house, office, shop and current projects finished before we pester him for new designs, eh?

Wayne
Not in need of another boat In the Swamp. :D

[ 04-21-2005, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

Suppose we give John a break and let him get his house, office, shop and current projects finished before we pester him for new designs, eh?
I agree to a point. We should give him a coffee break. Now about that reworked Swaggie... :D

[Venchka]

Jim, you don't give anybody a break.

As someone who funds his toy habit by producing engineeering drawings, I do find the pace at which small boat designs come to life most frustrating. I also found the pace at which small boat designs become real boats frustrating. Small boats have taught me a modicum of patience. Kinda. Sorta.

Where is the book or books that would allow an impatient person like me to take the plans for an existing design, a computer and a calculator and pull, poke, prod, twist and tweak it into my dream boat? Hey?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Chris Stewart]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Where is the book or books that would allow an impatient person like me to take the plans for an existing design, a computer and a calculator and pull, poke, prod, twist and tweak it into my dream boat? Hey?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D With discipline, grasshopper, you can develop the patience to pull, poke, prod, twist and tweak your dream boat into an existing design, maybe an existing boat, perhaps even your own boat. No computer needed. ;)

[Venchka]

Right. Sure. I'm on it. NOT! I could mess up a perfectly good boat in a heartbeat without proper guidance.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Chris Stewart]

I meant tweak your dream. You've already got a perfectly good boat. :rolleyes:

[Meerkat]

It must not be that perfectly good if he keeps looking @ others...

There are serveral good "yacht design" books around.

[JimD]

I'm thinking of ordering Skenes and Nicholson from the WB bookstore for starters and see where that takes me.

[Meerkat]

Not quite as far as an actual boat would I bet! ;)

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Not quite as far as an actual boat would I bet! ;) Hardy har har :D But if I decide to take the original Swaggie hull and tamper with the rest of her I may as well read up on the damage I'm doing. According to my calculations... :eek:

[Meerkat]

Glad you got and enjoyed the humor! I don't think they care for me much over in the bilge lately! ;)

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Glad you got and enjoyed the humor! I don't think they care for me much over in the bilge lately! ;) There's rarely a shortage of folks ready to dish out a heaping serving of tough love down there, eh? Not me, of course. What do you think of a gaff sloop with a fair sized topsail with the idea of dousing the topsail as a first reef? And a rather small jib. If there has to be a short bowsprit it would be a plank with enough width to stand on easily.

[Meerkat]

Not sure I'd like all that extra string. I'd favor either a gunter rig or a high-peaked gaff with no topsail (which isn't far different from a gunter... ;) ).

I'd put extra string into a staysail though...

As for the bowsprit - one need not venture out on to one at all if one puts reefable wykham-martin gear on the end. It being reefable, you can pull the whole thing back to the bow and not have to venture out on the plank at all. (Of course, one may not want or need to do this at all if one does not change headsails, either for lack of $ to have extra headsails or for other reasons which I had but suddenly went blank on).

A cutter with an all-inboard rig has much to recommend it, not the least of which is the compression post for the mast might just hit right at the top of the forepeak bunk rather than half way down it. Makes for less acrobatic conjugation if one is so lucky... ;) In my case, I'd just like to have the room to spread out without wrapping myself around the post.

[JimD]

Rightly or wrongly I seem to have convinced myself that its easier to raise or lower an entire sail than to partially reef a larger one. So I'm thinking I'd rather be pulling strings than tying off reef points with a stiffening wind blowing the boom all over the place. Do you know of any all inboard cutter rigs on hulls as short as Swaggie? Eighteen or so feet lod doesn't leave much room for two headsails.

[Meerkat]

Before we go too much further in this discussion, what kind of sailing will we be doing?

For inshore/coastal work, I'd go with a yawl and drop the main as a reef when needed. I think I'd also appreciate the greater manuverability, under sail, of the yawl rig - not to mention the convenient pole to tie the aft end of the cockpit tent to! ;)

For offshore work, I'd pay the price and reef, but only after dousing the jib as my first reef (carrying on under staysail and main). (BTW, I've reefed a marconi sloop - it's not nearly as scary as it sounds since you're on the upwind side laying against the boom and mainsail - lots of support!)

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Chris Stewart:
I meant tweak your dream. You've already got a perfectly good boat. :rolleyes: I reread your original post. Very clever shifting of meaning. I missed it the first time.

I know. I know. However, building a boat has been in my brain since forever. A dry bunk for a summer's sailing would be nice. Canvas and nylon could solve that problem on Elisabeth Grace. Building a tender would satisfy the boatbuilding desire.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Before we go too much further in this discussion, what kind of sailing will we be doing?

For inshore/coastal work, I'd go with a yawl and drop the main as a reef when needed. I think I'd also appreciate the greater manuverability, under sail, of the yawl rig - not to mention the convenient pole to tie the aft end of the cockpit tent to! ;)

For offshore work, I'd pay the price and reef, but only after dousing the jib as my first reef (carrying on under staysail and main). (BTW, I've reefed a marconi sloop - it's not nearly as scary as it sounds since you're on the upwind side laying against the boom and mainsail - lots of support!)We'd be talking anywhere around Vancouver Island. And I do mean around, as in relatively sheltered Gulf Island sailing on the east side sometimes, but other times on the west side with the full fetch of the Pacific Ocean to contend with. That can be as wild as almost anyplace on earth at times.

Perhaps part of the problem I have with reefing is that the boat I currently have still has an aluminum mast/bolt rope arrangement which is a pain. I had plans to build a new wood mast this winter with a sail track, or even just sew slugs onto the mains'l and continue with the aluminum mast but haven't got around to it yet although I have the slugs already. I even have a sailrite gaff sail kit I could use to replace the marconi set up entirely, and switch to mast hoops. One day I'll get around to it. My own fault for being lazy, I suppose. Anywho, reefing is easy with someone else at the tiller. My dream boat will have self steering and decent auxillary power so I'll just point her into the wind if I have to.

Speaking of self steering vanes and yawl rigs, I've heard they don't mix too well. Perhaps that question is for another thread.

[Venchka]

Jim,

Our round tuits seem to have fallen in the same Black Hole. At least you found yours long enough to build a few boats.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim,

Our round tuits seem to have fallen in the same Black Hole. At least you found yours long enough to build a few boats.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Never quite enough round tuits to get everything done but I did spend this afternoon working on Cathy's new kayak. At least I got round tuthat. :D

[Chris Stewart]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Building a tender would satisfy the boatbuilding desire.

Oughtred's Feather perhaps? Just large enough to do the job, just small enough to cartop.

[Venchka]

Jim, or anybody:

Found this at the JWBUILDERS Yahoo! group...

From: "servo_bot" <servo_bot@...>
Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:37 pm
Subject: FS: Swaggie Plans $100 servo_bot
Offline
Send Email

ADVERTISEMENT



Still collecting dust in my workshed. $100 includes domestic (US)
shipping. If you're even interested in the design, you can save over a
hundred bucks by buying them from me.

Andy
servo_bot@...

These plans need a good home.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Meerkat]

Update from the Kiwi hobbit hisself:

My client will arrive here in late August, and we will start with a clean sheet on the drawing board, but I envisage a bald headed gaff cutter ( no topsail) with a very simple layout. Bunk/settee each side with quarter berth, bench each side at the forward end of that, heads and storage forward under the forward hatch, motor under the forward end of the cockpit, and just standing room under the main hatch for a 5 ft 10in skipper.
The boat will be a close relation of Swaggie as I've done enough tow and sailing testing of the type to have a good handle on the shape and proportions, and the length is set by the space in my workshop (7.6m clear across and he needs to be able to get around both ends) so we are looking at 6.5m x 2.75m which is a bit more than 20 ft long and a little under 9 ft wide by 900 draft ( halfway up your thigh) and about 2100kg loaded ( too heavy to drop on your foot).
She will indeed be tough, I dont like drowning customers! English measure:
LOA: 21.3'
Beam: 9.02'
Draft: 35.43" ( 1/2" short of 3')
Loaded displacement: 4620#

John may have telephone/internet at his new place in the next couple of weeks. The phone company has found two tin cans and enough string... ;)

[Venchka]

So that's how you get a new design. Move in to the designer's shop. Build a boat as the drawings are produced. Sounds like plan. When does the next flight leave? :cool:

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

21X9 feet. That's certainly going to be roomy. Think I'll wait till the final plans come out and look at putting the gaff cutter rig (scaled down, of course) on the original hull.

[ 04-27-2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

Jim, are you scooping up the discount priced plans to have handy?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim, are you scooping up the discount priced plans to have handy?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D I think not. There's too big a chance I won't build a Swaggie and if I do decide to I'd rather write the cheque payable to JW