Single-handed planing daysailer/picnic boat

[Foster Price]

Hello Guys

Here I go again exploring the limits of compromise. I’m after your ideas on my concept and any designs that might satisfy all the requirements of the “brief’.

I’m thinking of a boat that:

Will be kept on a mooring to sail at a moments notice during stolen hours (over tidal flats), but trailered occasionally to lakes, and also beached for those special picnics.

Will be a spirited sailer singlehanded, able to plane off the wind, and capable in cold rough water.

Can accommodate Me, Mother and several kids for a “picnic” sail, without making anyone anxious (read “not tippy or fast”), or sitting on each others laps.

Has a very simple to raise rig, so when its trailered everyone isn’t raising hell about how long it takes to rig the boat, or getting new muscles heaving things about.

Will plane cleanly at 12 knots or so with a 15 hp 4 stroke outboard in flat water ( I want to be able to cover a lot of ground on the mirror calm winter days we have here and catch a few fish).

Will self right from a 90 degree knockdown

Some of the specifications I think this boat might need are:

Length of 18-25 feet (maybe a little more, shop or mooring size are not constraints)

Displacement of 1100 – 1500 lbs in fast mode( quite a bit more with the picnic crew aboard), weight of about 850 – 1200 lbs

Ballast of 200-300 lbs, most likely on a centreboard or lifting keel

Free standing rig , capable under main alone but with a small jib set flying, maybe runners to help with shape and as an aid raising the mast, query if a gunter could achieve the performance required.

Cheers - Foster

[ 11-25-2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Foster Price ]

[paladin]

Sounds like a trimaran with carbon fiber mast except for the ballast.

[Ian McColgin]

Some items are hopelessly contradictory:

The ballast/keel thoughts are too light to make her self-righting and probably too heavey for planing, expecially under power.

The idea of a free standing rig is inconsistant with easy up and down, as the mast will be a bit large and awkward to get verticle and drop in the hole, unless you build a small crane onto the front of your trailor.

One production boat that comes close -- They are ugly as sin but McGregor has a couple of designs in your dream range that come faily close. When sailing you flood the water ballast. It will plane under power but I think the engin is a bit larger than you specify.

The McGregor people tend to be very clannish and enthusiastic about their boats. They appear not to notice that they actually are poor sailing vessels and they really enjoy the fact that the things are good gunkholers.

More attractivly, you might look at some of Bolger's designs. I think if you drop the idea of quite so much stability and accept a stayed mast in a tabernackle, you can get about what you want.

G'luck

[Foster Price]

Hmmm - yes these are somewhat contradictory requirements but not totally unachieveable to some degree.

Sports-boats tend to have high ballast ratios but the JS9000 ( www.sportzboat.com (http://www.sportzboat.com) - a bit bigger than I was thinking, 30', 1606 lbs, and a bit complex in the rig) comes pretty close to what I think would fill the brief.

I did say that I only want self -righting from 90 degrees, so if we are talking large dinghy weight boats, 300 or more pounds is a person on the end of the centreboard, which will right all the dinghies I've ever sailed.

The most difficult to crack I think is the rig, as everyone look to bermudian to solve the "go-fast" problem, with the consequent penalty of a long spar. This is why I'm keen to hear from anyone who thinks they could get similar performance from the likes of Gunter rig or other short spar rigs.

Cheers - Foster

[Noah]

A Melges 24 Can do most of what you are asking, except for the draught thing. They are draw around 6 ft, but you can pull up the Keel with some work. (Figure around 30 minutes each time)

Forget about the McGregor, they are dangerous as sin, and can neither sail nor motor worth a damm! A guy killed 2 kids in one this summer on the lake.

I also think that you will end up spending more money and never be happy getting a boat that does all of these things well. What about two boats? Get a small planning skif for the power boat (Or hell a cheap-0 Aluminum thing they work pretty well) and then get a real sailboat. There are lots of good racing sailboats that will plane, but not many cruisers.

Paladin was right about the Trimaran thing. They could do most of what you are looking for.

Noah

[Dave Hadfield]

I owned a MacGregor for 10 years. Just call me Clannish. I suggest that they're not death traps. About 30000 of them have been built. We sailed ours in wilderness environments, far from any aids, including a 2 week final cruise along the north shore of Lake Superior. I'm talking about the older version. It's a fine little boat. It'll look after you if you don't do anything foolish.

The M26x will only plane when very lightly loaded. Most of the time they plough along doing, indeed, about 12 knots. They're expensive though, and they need a 50hp motor to push them that fast.

Foster, you don't need a cabin? Will you be sailing in the open sea much?

If not, some of the larger inland racing Scows ("A" Scows) sound like they'd fit the bill. Fast, light, great initial stability, and I don't see any reason why you couldn't put a 15 hp motor on one.

They're stayed, but after 10 years on the MacGregor 26 "Classic", let me assure you that stays are not a problem -- in fact the shrouds stop the mast from teetering over while it's going up and down. It means a deck-stepped mast, but again that's no problem.

There's a lot to be said for a portable boat -- easily portable, that is.

[JimConlin]

You might consider Dick Newick's 'Spark'. It's intended as a low-effort, comfortable high performance daysailer. 1500 lbs. empty.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/image828.JPG

I haven't thought about the details of making disassembly and setup quick. It will not be as convenient as the Farrier boats in this regard. Rough guess half a day's work to set up.

I'm now building one. Wood is not among the principal materials, alas.

[JimConlin]

And see the article in Boat Design Quarterly #2.
Jim

[Keith Wilson]

Given your list of requirements, I really don't think you'd want an A-scow, nor any of the racing scow classes. This is our indigenous local type, like dories in new England. They're pure sport/racing boats, lots of fun, VERY fast (particularly the larger ones), wet, uncomfortable, definitely not relaxing to sail. An A-scow absolutely requires four or five stout fellows hanging off the weather rail to hold her up in any sort of a breeze.

[Foster Price]

Hmmm . Thanks for the thoughts Guys

It is a difficult balance seeking some speed without losing the ability to also have a relaxed sail. The scows and other hi performance dinghys require a more athletic approach than I care for.

Some of the small keelers like 110's and Flying 15's (even if they were lifting keel/weighted centreboards) are the same although a bit closed to what I envisage.

Cats and Tris would meet most of the brief except the ability to be off the trailer and away sailing in a reasonable time - they mostly all take at least an hour (frequently more than 2) to set up.

Perhaps a ballasted version of B&B's Core Sound 17 or John Welsfords Sweet Pea would go close, I will explore these options further.

Many thanks

Foster

[Gordy]

Foster,
I have a Core Sound 17 and it would do almost everything you want. I think keeping it on a mooring would be silly.
I keep my sails rolled around the masts.
The masts ride in PVC crutches that sit in the mast steps.
When I arrive at the ramp I lift the but ends out of the crutch and throw the crutch into the car. I attach the wind indicator to the tip of the main, lift the mast vertical, and from still standing on the ground I lift it and set it in place. I have to actually climb into the boat to do the same with the mizzen. I close the self-bailer (most of the time) and hang the rudder.
I undo the tiedowns and the boat is ready to launch.
Unfurling the sails and rigging the sprits takes much less time than feeding little cars onto a track and playing with a boom.
Anything I want to take along can be loaded at home and left in the boat 'till I get back home. Sometimes it doesn't get unloaded that night. The bottom of the boat doesn't get slimy.
The Core Sound 20 might suit your purposes even better. My boat is relatively fast, but this son of a ... excuse me.. the 20 goes right by me.
The CS20 is bigger, faster, dryer, and much more stable than my boat.
My boat can claw it's way off a lee shore in less than a foot of water. Here in Florida this is good. The 20 might need 14 inches.
If you're wondering, yes I would have a CS20 if my building area and storage area were larger.
I think adding ballast would be a waste of ballast.
I'd consider having slightly smaller sails. You'd still have a great performing boat, but you don't want the smaller sails do you? You might add a few pounds to the centerboard if it'll make you feel better.

[MuddyFeet]

The "12 knots under power" requirement is the only incompatible one -- if you can find the time to putz along at 5 knots, you have a lot more options.

It's not clear to me whether a wooden boat is one of your requirements. The Melges 24 mentioned earlier is a riot to sail, but not all that comfortable for daysailing -- the only place to sit is on the rail. But folks cruise them, so...

The larger one-design dinghies are easily trailered, designed to rig easily, are often seen on the mooring, are easily beached for picnicing, and are routinely righted from capsize. If you want to stay with wood, several of these were done in wood and can often be found in stable condition and well worth restoring. I'm thinking of: Lightnings, Highlanders, Bucanneers, Wayfarers, etc. The Highlander has a huge cockpit -- two couples and a cooler make for a great afternoon on the water and on the beach. For all of these one-design classes, sails are easy to come by, and you have the enthusiastic advice and camaraderie of fellow boat owners.

Another option (again, giving up the 15 knot requirement) is a simple catboat. In plastic, consider the Marshall cats (pricey). In wood, well, several good designs to build from scratch, and the occassional one shows up on the market in affordable and restorable condition.

But at the end of the day, all boats are compromises, and your compromise should match your definition of a fun afternoon on the water.