I like this schooner-

[rbgarr]

It's a 51' design by Bill Rothrock published in an out of print book from the mid-70's. The more I look at the design, the more I admire its possibilities as a husky voyaging/liveaboard boat. Reminds me somewhat of the Cogge or Irving Johnson 'Yankee' ketches, if only in the hulls.

She's got everything I'd need: easily manageable sails, strong deck construction with few openings, inside and outside steering, and broad decks with room for tender storage out of the way. Down below it has a workshop forward, two double staterooms (one for sea and one for port), a separate shower stall, a snug pilot house with nav station, a great cabin with separate sitting and eating areas and an out-of-the-way galley.

Don't know if it was ever built.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid112/pc771d7c81637638cde2fbdeb3975a749/f8fd44e4.jpgEdited to add: See post #43 for sketches of the schooner from

"A Somewhat Irreverant Look at the Design of the Long Distance Cruiser", Bill Rothrock, Wilson-Stone Pub., 1974

[ 04-18-2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[cs]

I like it also! All we gotta do is make it a gaff rig and we can use it for a charter service. :D

Chad

[guy_from_Europe]

looks great to my
do you have an Off set table, l
ines or something like that anyway ??

[Alan D. Hyde]

Sparkman & Stephens have the plans for Irving & Exy Johnson's last Yankee.

She's a gem.

Much like the design shown above. Built of Coreten steel, BTW.

Alan

[rbgarr]

Neither lines nor offsets in the book, and I've tried to hunt the designer down with no luck.

My copy of Skene's 'Elements of Yacht Design' (which I can't find right now :eek: :eek: !) shows plans for 'Yankee' and another smaller clipper bowed ketch 'Mischief'. The owner of 'Mischief' wrote a book called 'Altering Course'. It's a good read, especially about designer/client, designer/builder, and financial considerations.

A feature of 'Yankee' that intrigued me was that she had large, half-oval, hollow, metal, oil-filled rubstrakes for protecting her topsides in the European lock systems. I'm still not sure how they were supposed to work :confused:

[ 04-16-2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Dave K]

Smaller than the "Yankee", I believe, but with much the same look and charm, check out two Ted rewer designs - "Mystic" (not the 32' sharpie, the big ketch) and "Enterprise". "Mystic' was even used once in the TransPac and did quite well (and comfortably, too).

[Alan D. Hyde]

rbgarr, here's a link (below) to S.& S.

I'm pretty sure they'll respond cordially to any inquiry about Yankee.

Olin Stephens designed her himself: perhaps he might e-mail you back. Often, the greater a man is in his field, the more accessible and generous (and the less aloof and pretentious) he is.

Alan

http://www.sparkmanstephens.com/

[ 04-16-2004, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[rbgarr]

Found my Skene's and I was wrong. There are no plans for Yankee shown there... but a larger derivitive, the 58' Torea, is.

[Greg H]

It reminds me a bit of Rosborough's Buccaneer of 45'.

[JimD]

She's husky, alright. Don't know if I could be happy with that transom

[rbgarr]

It IS a big transom, isn' t it? That's always been my one of my concerns about the design and why it's so frustrating not to be able to get lines for her hull.

I like making half models of boats in order to get a better feel for the hull shape. I made a model of LF Herreshoff's 36' Nereia to see how she'd look without the clipper bow fashion piece and the raised bulwarks aft. She looks very much like the H-28, only with a slightly straighter stem and a bit of tumblehome aft and at the transom. I like it.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid112/peafd44368d0fc86f3ab804eaaee98306/f8f9db80.jpg

[Bill Rothrock]

This is a very late response to this topic, but I have just run across it and felt I should respond --- in the event anyone is still interested.

Thank you for your kind words on this design. To answer your questions:

“Bear”, my name for this design, was never built by me as intended. One set of plans, with offsets, was sold to a party in Alaska, but I do not know if that one was built, and I have no record of that builder’s name. (If she was built, I’d love to hear about her.)

On the “big transom”: I was never, for several reasons, a fan of counter sterns. On this design I was thinking double-ender but with added reserve buoyancy aft.

The offsets, and the original drawings no longer exist.

In 1972, I broke my stupid neck (in a boat accident!) just as I was to start construction on Bear. The book was written from bed as a sort of therapy during my convalescence. In an insane act, unfathomable to me even now, a person quite close to me intentionally destroyed all my design records, papers, etc. With surgery, I eventually recovered to the point where I could get on with my life, but under dire warnings/orders from doctors that I must never sail again --- something to do with looking up at sails, and the concern that even a modest fall could undue the neck fix --- and not wishing to sit on the dock and dream of things that would never be, I moved inland and pursued other interests.

Thirty-some years later, I suspect that I could now physically get away with building and sailing Bear, but at 71, it’s probably a bit late to start.

Again, thanks for the praise. The book, “The Long Distance Cruiser” was quite successful through two printings. It’s now out of print, but is frequently available used on Amazon.com, Alibris.com, and Biblio.com. It may be dated in its comments about costs, but I still believe anyone considering a new long-distance cruising boat should read it before spending any boat money.

Sincerely, Bill Rothrock

[Wild Dingo]

Never to late mate... depends on level of desire to get out there... as for the neck docs will always suggest the easy options dont take any risk route... and so people more often than not miss out on a lifetime of journeys and happiness due to their over caution

All the best Bill thanks for the info and welcome :cool:

[Neil H B]

Can I Just add my two cents worth re the Bill Rothrock schooner "Bear". Nothwithstanding some opinons on the transom, the design is very stylish and extremely practical. I stumbled across it about a decade ago in the Auckland public library. But, I think that Bill's ideas in his book are better than his design. It's not called "...somewhat irreverant .." for nothing. GO read it! It is worth hunting down a copy.

As an aside, Paul Gartside has designed a smaller yet similar-in-concept 37 ft motor sailer ketch.

And Bill, sorry to read about your injury and loss of design materials.

Neil

[rbgarr]

What a delight to have you on the Forum! And you found the thread on BEAR so fast!

I gave up hope of ever finding out more about that design. Hearing the real story about her is intriguing and I'm very sorry about what's transpired since '72.

I'd always envisioned you'd moved to the farm you wrote about in the last chapter of the book, cut your own trees, built her in a pole barn, sold the property at a profit and sailed off into the sunset.

Did you have other designs (of any type) built? Can you tell us about them?

[Lucky Luke]

That does be a remarquable design, Mr. Rothrock!

I very much like the sheer line, the curve of the clipper bow, and mostly the nice proportions which makes this otherwise bulky boat so graceful. The practically non-existing counter would not do noisy splashes, and although the transom is quite big, it looks like having a rather pronounced "V" shape and not a "big ass" looking one.

The three sails schooner rig, self tacking, three of them of similar proportions, easy to reef down from the cockpit, looks nicely proportionned.

May I say that this very bad accident of you has make us loose the opportunity of seing some very nice designs. Hope you enyoy a bit of sailing again, sometimes... smile.gif

I feel compassionate too about the loss of all your designs: my ex-wife did just the same...bad divorce! :(

[rbgarr]

Mr. Rothrock- Were any of the other designs in your book fleshed out and built?

[Bill Rothrock]

Yup - except for the book, the 70's were not my best years. While still more or less recovering from the spinal surgery, I did live aboard my old “motor sailer” --- “Porpoise”, a Wm Garden designed, canoe-stern, tri-cabin trawler type that was really about 95% motor and 5% sail. She was about 41' LOA, quite narrow beam, deep draft, stoutly and beautifully built by Chapman in Newport Beach, CA, around 1954. I always thought her prettier than most “trawler yachts” but oh did she roll - there wasn’t a steadying sail big enough. Her 4-51 engine (predecessor, I think, to the 53 series) was awfully noisy, and way over-powered her. Anything over about 1500 RPM (around 6 or 7 knots) and she’d start dropping back into her own hole, flooding the self-bailing cockpit!

My other "adventure" in the 70's was accepting the job of running engineering at (the original) Westsail. Thought I could do some good there, but quit in frustration and disgust after just a few months.

The second stays’l schooner in the book was for a German client, who planned to build her there and live aboard and cruise. He was quite demanding about simplicity, even to the extent of refusing to allow an aux engine. Although I believe the design did have some interesting innovations, I was never entirely happy with her aesthetically. But he loved her. By the time I was out of the fog of drugs (prescrip drugs!) after the surgery, and beginning to move around a bit, all the records were gone, and I was never able to find him.

I was working on another stays’l schooner for another client when that deal fell through. He ran out of money before he even started! About that time I decided to sell “Porpoise” (I wasn’t then even in good enough shape to properly maintain her) and “move ashore”. Sad story - one can almost hear the tiny violins playing. As I don’t even know if any of my boats were built, I guess I was a failure at naval architecture. But I have a good life now, perhaps not the life I had envisioned, but good.

Haven’t been aboard a vessel other than a Washington State ferry since!

Bill Rothrock

[Alan D. Hyde]

Bill, the design is an inspired one, and not all that far in some respects from the Olin Stephens/Irving Johnson collaboration that led to the Johnson's last Yankee.

I obviously know nothing but what you've told us about your physical condition.

BUT, I very much hope that you've made friends with bright and agressive young physicians at the forefront of their various disciplines--- they may be found at major research centers like Johns Hopkins, are frequently immigrants, and may be double-boarded and have a Ph.D., too. Talk to some such about your neck and related injuries. Tremendous strides are being made in neurology and in orthopedics--- it may be that your condition can be ameliorated substantially.

Whether this is so, or not---

Fair winds and following seas to you, Sir.

Alan

[rbgarr]

You're not alone at 'not succeeding' in yacht design- It's a tough business to get established in.

The book was (is) very good and displayed clear thinking, a great sense of humor, honesty (the parts about head use and sex, especially) ... and nice handprinting to boot;)

It's one of my favorite books and I often reread it when I need to get back to first principles. I wish WB would reprint it as one of their booklets!

[Lucky Luke]

Originally posted by rbgarr:
The book was (is) very good and displayed clear thinking, a great sense of humor, honesty ..... I wish WB would reprint it as one of their booklets!THAT IS AN EXCELLENT IDEA!

Since we are honored to have - quite by luck - "some" contact here with Mr. Rothrock: Would you, Sir, allow this reprint? Would you, please, give to perhaps "rgbarr" (who obviously agrees), your coordonates to allow him to proceed, as Scott, our webmaster, has more than a word to say about the publications of WB, and would very probably get it done.

This is an opportunity to promote something I and surely many here fully support.

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
Sparkman & Stephens have the plans for Irving & Exy Johnson's last Yankee.

She's a gem.

Much like the design shown above. Built of Coreten steel, BTW.

AlanShe was a ketch. (Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.)

[rbgarr]

Agreed. From above:

My copy of Skene's 'Elements of Yacht Design' (which I can't find right now!) shows plans for 'Yankee' and another smaller clipper bowed ketch 'Mischief'. Skene's doesn't show 'Yankee', however, so I was mistaken about that part.

[Alan D. Hyde]

The Hiscock's big compendium book, Cruising Under Sail has some excellent photos of the Johnson's last Yankee, IIRC.

Alan

[ 09-06-2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Bill Rothrock]

Thanks.
But I think there is so much in the book that is 30 years out of date --- particularly where it talks about costs --- that I doubt it would be reasonable to reprint it without extensive rewrite.
Bill Rothrock

[Lucky Luke]

Originally posted by Bill Rothrock:
Thanks.
But I think there is so much in the book that is 30 years out of date --- particularly where it talks about costs --- that I doubt it would be reasonable to reprint it without extensive rewrite.
Bill RothrockWhat is "outdated" for many are the wooden boats we all here cherish!!!
...and the sea has not changed much since the last 30 years...some more pollution, alas...
Costs have changed, of course, and what used to be a cheap and ordinary item available in all shipchandlers has become a collector's piece!...not to mention the man-hours, although that's an easy conversion: the time needed has not changed much.
I trust rgbarr's opinion, and if he says it's a real good book, then I would like to see it re-printed. And I repeat: the manager of the "store" (and webmaster of this site: Scot Bell) has his word to say about WB's publications.
What about getting in touch with him then?

[ 11-11-2005, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

[StevenBauer]

I trust rgbarr's opinion, and if he says it's a real good book, then I would like to see it re-printed. I just ordered a copy. :D

Steven

[outofthenorm]

I just ordered one too. If WB isn't interested, DNGoodchild might be. All it takes is a minimum order of a dozen or so.

- Norm

[rbgarr]

I was looking at William Garden's book "Yacht Designs II" at the bookstore today and came across a 43' design called SEQUIN (p. 78) that reminded me some of Rothrock's schooner. Another nice schooner design with an English "Wavertree" type of stern used on steel ships.

[Paul Pless]

I like that Garden design also, which is kinda weird cause I'm generally not attracted to such unconventional layouts in a boat of only 43 feet. And its a pretty boat too.

[Gary Bergman]

We're quite familiar with a similar hull design, but we usually think 'James Rosborough' :D

http://www.privateerinc.org/images/112.jpg

[Wild Dingo]

Good lord!! Gary!! Mate how are you old son??? Been ages since youve given us the pleasure of your company hows Royaliste? Is she everything you dreamed she would be? Where be the sailing now?

Yes yes the book... do the reprint Bill it would be a good thing in many ways for yourself and for us who live and dream good boats and their designs... about that transom I like it nice and solid looking and while I like the small transoms ala Fame I still think such as this has a solidity that the others seem to lack

Im glad your life turned out well in the end Bill and although not what you expected or envisioned a life well lived no doubt

Cheers and a fine following breeze to you sir :cool:

[rbgarr]

Another WBForum member has brought this design to light and kindly sent this link. Looks like this Norwegian has been hard at it doing some very good work! See the photo album at the bottom of his webpage:

http://www.njordforum.no/prosjektet/tegninger/tegninger.shtml

[Bill Rothrock]

Again - thanks for the kind words.....

To Wild Dingo: At my local (light aircraft) airport the other day I saw a poster. It was related to flying, but it could apply to ocean sailing too. I don’t recall the whole thing, but the text ended with something like, “When I am about to die, instead of looking back at a life of safety and low accomplishment, I’ll be able to say ‘Wow! What a ride!’”

About the book: I think there is so much in it that would have to be updated, it would be nearly a complete rewrite. I believe I’m now too far removed from the boat industry to do it justice. (As an example, I was browsing through a “yachting” magazine the other day and --- showing my age perhaps --- was appalled at what seems to pass for “design” these days. Not just the aesthetics, the awful impracticality of these “boats”.)

About “Bear”: Beyond the details of accommodation, etc., I think the two most important elements of this design are the rig and the wheel house. In the seventies Bear was criticized for the house being too low to be of value, but I totally disagree. I’ve spent time in sail boats with higher houses - too much windage and ruins the cockpit. And I spent some happy times in a fifty-footer sporting a wheel house with even less forward vision than Bear’s. I should have explained in the book that Bear’s house was not intended for use in channels and traffic. But it is a safe, dry, convenient place from which to maintain control over a deep-water passage. I’d not consider a long voyage without one.

Bill Rothrock

[Uncle Duke]

Bill, could I suggest that it does not need to be rewritten? Here's the deal - people want a mental library of good ideas. Nobody is going to sue if the costs are different than what was projected 'x' number of year ago in the same way that even when published originally nobody was going to hold their builder to those exact costs - everyone added this thing, subtracted that thing, substituted one thing for another.
This book, apparently, has stuff which gets people to start thinking - that is a huge value all by itself, and one which should be preserved.
Worry less. Publish more.
Just my $0.02.
Neil

[edited because I cannot spell.... sometimes]

[ 02-19-2006, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Duke ]

[Norske3]

Planning on a world trip?....stop off and see Shane maybe? smile.gif

[Paul Pless]

Hey rbgarr!:)

[rbgarr]

Thanks! How did you find it??

[Jay Greer]

The Schooner sheer plan reminds me of the Hugh Angelman "Mayflower" ketches that were built in China during the late sixties.
JG

[Jay Greer]

The Schooner sheer plan reminds me of the Hugh Angelman "Mayflower" ketches that were built in China during the late sixties.
JG

[Paul Pless]

Thanks! How did you find it??


use the advanced google search functions you can enter a specific domain for google to search for a certain word or phrase. In this case I entered that google should search www.woodenboatvb.com (http://www.woodenboatvb.com) for the words Bill Rothrock

[Moose]

I'm just getting started on this whole designing boats thing, but I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the age of a book has absolutely no influence on wether or not I find it useful. Just yesterday I delved into CPK's gigantic design manual and that was written in the late 1800's I believe. If he quote costs in the 4 to 6 K range and nobody complains, I'm pretty sure that there wouldn't be an issue about 70's prices. Especially if there was a quick paragraph in the forward identifying the costs as such. I for one would order a copy from whoever did the publishing...

Fair Winds
Adam

[rbgarr]

Again - thanks for the kind words.....

To Wild Dingo: At my local (light aircraft) airport the other day I saw a poster. It was related to flying, but it could apply to ocean sailing too. I don’t recall the whole thing, but the text ended with something like, “When I am about to die, instead of looking back at a life of safety and low accomplishment, I’ll be able to say ‘Wow! What a ride!’”

About the book: I think there is so much in it that would have to be updated, it would be nearly a complete rewrite. I believe I’m now too far removed from the boat industry to do it justice. (As an example, I was browsing through a “yachting” magazine the other day and --- showing my age perhaps --- was appalled at what seems to pass for “design” these days. Not just the aesthetics, the awful impracticality of these “boats”.)

About “Bear”: Beyond the details of accommodation, etc., I think the two most important elements of this design are the rig and the wheel house. In the seventies Bear was criticized for the house being too low to be of value, but I totally disagree. I’ve spent time in sail boats with higher houses - too much windage and ruins the cockpit. And I spent some happy times in a fifty-footer sporting a wheel house with even less forward vision than Bear’s. I should have explained in the book that Bear’s house was not intended for use in channels and traffic. But it is a safe, dry, convenient place from which to maintain control over a deep-water passage. I’d not consider a long voyage without one.

Bill Rothrock

I recall wondering briefly about the low height of the deckhouse, and I'm glad we heard Mr. Rothrock's experience and thinking on the subject.

Here are the drawings again since they seem to be missing from the first post on the thread:
http://i42.tinypic.com/27xgja1.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2m0n6b.jpg