Ideal Ocean Going Sailboat

[emichaels]

After reading, so far, the thread on the "perfect design", which is incredible the way it has developed, I started thinking about the design characteristics of an ocean going heavy weather boat. What Design elements are characteristic of safe, speedy , durable open ocean boats. Such as what rig, canoe stern or transom, full keel, cold molded vs carvel. The boat that comes to mind is Holger Danske, which won 1980 Newport-Bermuda.
Comments anyone.

Edited to add some criteria:

Should be able to be single handed. What kind of specific criteria in the design and building would one want to achieve above elements. Copper riviting the planks, double planking ( like Holger Danske)........etc. I mean if you were designing/ building a boat for open ocean, go anywhere sort of boat, intended to be singlehanded, what would you want ????

Eric

[ 11-19-2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Dave Lesser]

Holger Danske (http://www.hugohein.com/classic.sail/holger.danske/holger.danske.specs.htm)

[Paul Pless]

These threads are always fun.
Here's my current favorite along the lines your thinking about

http://www.mysticseaport.org/visit/images/brilliant.88-578.jpg

The schooner Brilliant, has a pretty darn good race record, including a Bermuda win I believe, but her original owner's priorities were for a safe and comfortable boat in heavy weather.

Some damn good input from a naval architect on your questions regarding transoms, ballast, and such can be found here:link (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004479&p=)

[ 11-19-2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Canoeyawl]

Here is a good read, a bit dated but still valid...
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0070117322.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[emichaels]

Originally posted by Dave Lesser:
Holger Danske (http://www.hugohein.com/classic.sail/holger.danske/holger.danske.specs.htm)Wow that link is worth repeating. That is an incredible boat for sure. I have been thinking about this for a while and I keep coming back to K.Aage Nielsen's design 331 in 1967 (WB #133) of Snowstar. I would want to rerig that as a yawl or ketch with a smaller mizzen. In my mind I would want two masts so the individual sails would be smaller and easier to handle for a singlehanded passage. More choices of set ups and storm tracking. I am not experienced in open ocean so I can only think about it now.

Eric

[emichaels]

Originally posted by Canoeyawl:
Here is a good read, a bit dated but still valid...
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0070117322.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpgFunny you should mention that book I just got it two weeks ago. Am looking forward reading it this week while the wife is down with family in NJ.

[emichaels]

Paul, Brilliant is a beautiful boat. It would be tought to single hand. At least for me...
Eric

[paladin]

I'm biased.....Tana Mari is based on the 39 foot Lyle Hess Channel Cutter.......the cutter rig is much easier to handle....outboard rudder is where it works best, everything is easier to repair...when I done drawed it I added beam and stretched her to 45 feetz.......

[emichaels]

These threads are always fun. (Paul Pless)

Yeah I thought since the designers minds were all warmed up on the "perfect design" thread I might get some good thoughts together specifying a truly worthy ocean going vessel.

Eric

[ 11-19-2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[Paul Pless]

Eric,

from that link I posted comes this from Roger Long:
“Seaworthy” is one of those empty terms that doesn’t mean much without context. Pinky’s and other double ended types are intended to increase survival probability when running for shelter with seas on the stern. The heavy quarters of the Friendship sloop types increase the chance of broach or even capsize and the effect on steering will wear down the crew faster.

However, when safety lies to windward and you are either going to cover ten to twenty miles in thirty plus knot winds or die, the reserve stability and pitch damping of those transom quarters could be what saves your life. If you look at a map of the coasts and think about how transom stern boats and double enders were distributed, you should see some correlation.

There was plenty of mixing of course since there are lots of reasons for either type besides survival in specific conditions. Transoms, especially Friendship types, are difficult to build compared to simply planking to a sternpost. The Friendship type was much more influenced by fashion and news of what the rich were racing in Boston than is commonly realized. It was far from a pure evolution driven by function alone.

The Pinky will probably go to windward as well and reliably as a Friendship sloop in any conditions that a modern sailor with a weather radio and not trying to make a living on the water in the winter will ever encounter. Put them side by side and keep increasing that biting northwest wind higher and higher and the Friendship will probably be able to keep on driving longer than the Pinky. But, the modern sailor would have turned on the engine or called the Coast Guard long before the Pinky was overpowered and started being driven to leeward.

Going to leeward in rising seas and wind, the Friendship sloop would certainly trip and capsize while the Pinky was still ready for more. Again, the modern sailor would already be on the chopper and riding home at taxpayer’s expense by the time this difference became significant.

For sailing the way we do it today, it really comes down to what you like the look of.
really good stuff

[Paul Pless]

Paul, Brilliant is a beautiful boat. It would be tought to single hand. At least for me...
Eric LOL! she'd be tough for most of us to afford. ;) IIRC she's all mahogany and teak over oak, plus one hell of a lot of bronze.

[brian.cunningham]

Spray comes to mind
http://www.voyageofthespray.org/images/spray/spray_side_1.jpg

With the right rig you can single hand just about anything. My friends 42ft trimaran sails like a dingy
http://www.sailtriad.com/images/fast-triad.jpg

The Open 60's are raced across the oceans single-handed
http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/ST.gif

It also depends on where you keep it.
A dock or a mooring?

[Rex Fearnehough]

Holger Danske.
To the present owner who may read this.
I think that this wonderful boat should come to Shetland. It is perfectly suited to our seas and climate.
So if you are willing to give it to me. I will even come and fetch it.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Paul Pless]

ROTFLMAO

thanks Rex

[ishmael]

At the smaller end of the spectrum, Giles' Vertue.

http://homepages.rya-online.net/vertueowners/UsedPages/BlueBookPages/Vertue%20a%20History.htm

[emichaels]

Paul,
That is interesting what Mr LOng wrote. I have to make a point here concerning something he said about modern sailors calling the coast guard. What he says is true people do panic and bail to the radio and organized help rather quickly. My feeling is that when a person, any person goes into the moutains or out to sea they absolutly have to be trained and prepared to get themselves back on their own. That is part of the trip man.
If people are going to put their lives on the line I think it is just not right that they ask others to risk their lives to bail them out when their way goes sour. I speak from experience and when I do go to sea solo I fully expect that I have to get myself back on my own power and will. That said. this is part of the reason I am reviewing designs and thinking and posting this thread to add to my knowledge of what a damn good boat should be to get one home over heavy seas.

In some regards it is a fun subject to contemplate and at the same time it is a serious one. One that some that go to sea did not consider.

Eric

[Aramas]

Ok, instead of discussing stern shape, number of hulls, etc., how about we try to quantify the characteristics that are desirable in a 'heavy weather cruiser"? I will, of course, be happy to stick my oar in and stir up the hornets smile.gif

1) Heavy displacement: The human body can only function effectively at very low accelerations, and the only way to provide that in a boat is through lots of mass.

2) Dryness: Keeping water off the deck and off the crew is necessary if the most important parts of the boat are going to endure for long periods in the cold old shytholes that a lot of our forum members live in. This seems to be a function of bow shape and section, displacement, longitudinal weight distribution, freeboard, etc..

3) Central controls: See 1). The least motion is around the centre of a boat, and you do not want to be pulling negative G's while ten feet out on a bowsprit trying to dowse a headsail.

4) Slow periods of roll and pitch: This is an interesting one, since it is in opposition to most of the design principles in contemporary yacht design - ie high ballast ratio, low G and high metacentre.

5)...someone else have a go.

It looks to me that a heavy displacement full keel monohull with a junk rig is the 'ideal heavy weather cruiser'. Boats such as Colin Archers, Buelers, etc.. Of course, I have no idea why people would want to sail in places where the weather is crap anyway. I would much rather a boat that could quickly scoot off to the tropics and leave such unpleasantness behind smile.gif

[LazyJack]

My ideal heavy weather craft would have a realatively high loading on somewhat flexible foils for a smoother ride, be slightly nose heavy to assure it would pitch downward if laminar flow over the foils was disrupted would be fully controlled from the cockpit and would be powered by a 2300 hp Wasp radial.

[StevenBauer]

rbgar's recent thread about Bill Rothrock's book ("A Somewhat Irreverant Look at the Design of the Long Distance Cruiser", Bill Rothrock, Wilson-Stone Pub., 1974) inspired me to order the book from a used book seller and I just finished reading it. He makes some excellent points. He emphasizes comfort and safety. He says seats shouldn't double as berths. He likes staterooms - people need a little privacy. He likes flush decks, much stronger and safer. Keep the bunks out of the ends of the boat, no aft cabin (too noisy being under the cockpit) vee berth too uncomfortable. Pilot house for bad weather, cockpit for good. Lots more good stuff.
Pics of his ideal cruiser are on Dave's thread:
www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003403 (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003403)

Steven

[emichaels]

Okay now we are moving in the correct direction (not that the direction earlier was wrong, just slightly off point) Elements of the design, characteristics of the boat is what I am after here. Exactly what Aramas and Steve were saying.

Stuff like this is what at I am wondering:
Double planked ?
Most reliable fastenings for the planking ? Heavy higher HP engine vs lighter lower HP engine ?
Cabin house would be nice in fowl weather but does it make an hull unnecassarily weak and vulnerable to heavy seas breaking on deck ?
What rig would be easily (more easily anyway) handled by a solo sailor in rough weather. Is hauling a gaff down in a blow easier or safer that non gaffed sail. Is it important to have multiple masts, ie mizzen.

I think having food prep and sleeping in the center of the boat is best for solo work offshore. Less movement, quicker to reach the cockpit.

I remember in one of Tristan Jones books he talks a lot about solo setups. I think it was "One Hand for Yourself one for the Boat ".

Eric

[ 11-20-2005, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: emichaels ]

[JimD]

Just mho but I doubt planking system or type of fasteners would have much of anything to do with it aside from the obvious issues such as iron fasteners will rust and bronze one's won't, and there are reasons traditional lapstrake construction wasn't used on very large yachts, etc. Might I suggest you read 'The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat' by John Vigor, who has a good reputation as an author and read nothing by Tristian Jones who was a notorious liar. Vigor's book isn't geared towards the wooden boat crowd but it is an excellent overview on the elements of seaworthiness and devotes considerable time to surviving worst case senarios.

[emichaels]

Thanks JimD I will look his book. I get what your saying about Jones. But what his books are good for is provoking thought on various subjects, as a starting point. Because lets face it nobody can think of everything. Only collective wisdom can approach completeness. Well what made me think about fastners was the fact that Walsted copper rivet fastened the planking on Aage Neilsens designs, particular, Holger Danske, the white oak frames were laminated and the glue failed over time, yet the planking and frames remained intact respective each other due to the rivets. Steve Bauer made a comment on another thread concerning the integrity of rivets (being good).

Eric

[TimothyB]

This is why Hillyard center cockpit designs were popular for ocean going cruisers.

Center cockpit. Easier motion and more protected from following seas. Can be easily enclosed and is protected by the whole bulk of the boat. Can be large without undue risk. Much less likely to get flooded.

High freeboard. Less 'performance' but much more protection from seas when hard pressed or in a bad chance.

Somewhat shallower draft. Less likely to suffer a knockdown due to tripping and et al.

Full length keel. Less manueverablity but better tracking and protection from hitting solid objects.

http://www.hillyardyachts.ukf.net/images/charlotte_louise.gif
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/Hillyard.jpg

[emichaels]

I dug thru some old WB issues and came upon the Hess Falmouth cutter, 30'. Though I have never been a huge fan of cutters, and I don't know why, but they seem to be quite seaworthy. A lot of room in a 30 foot boat. Low cabin sides . Very flexible rig design. Heavy. Some people have put an awful lot of sea miles under their keels.

WB# 120 pp 102 shows Curlew with all her sail spread and it is quite a sight ! smile.gif

Eric

[igatenby]

I think Ellen proved this design

http://www.teamellen.com/img/splashpage/landing-img-5.jpg

[OEX]

It seems to me you will spend all your time IN the boat, so think first about function and then esthetics and form. You want as much room as you can get in the length of choice, you want easy motion, you want single-handedness, you want flat sailing (big deal here, after a few weeks at 25-30 degrees you will be nuts), you want a quiet hull (wood or specifically made to be warm and silent) and you want as much deck as possible. Look at what has been used in the past; I feel inventing the best cruiser without looking at the experience of others would not be a great idea. The Colin Archer designs, the Bristol Channel /itchen ferry/ Falmouth workboat ideas clearly have proven themselves. The Spray design has as well.

Now look at maintenance and simplicity. Lots of bright work, long overhangs, no head room, cluttered decks.... etc is what you DO NOT want---I would think. I grew up sailing a Drascomb Lugger, Contessa 26 and the Hess Cutter of 28 feet. The Hess hull was very very nice, solid, fast in light air, roomy, etc. I am a big tall guy and I think too long in the Hess 28 would be too small. 34 feet is a min for too long and I want beam and depth. My current boat (not in water yet, so I could be very wrong) is a 34 foot gaff cutter with a 12 foot beam and 6”10” head room.

Break up your sail plan i.e. cutter, ketch, yawl or best of all (not my favorite, but there you go—irrational and mistaken I am sure) schooner. Cruising, etc you will, if you are smart, sail mostly off the wind. Off the wind a gaff main is more powerful and creates a better motion.

Deep hull with a good forefoot will allow you to heave-to better and weather storms much more safely. Righting moment is also importantly (i.e. external ballast or some other way of getting good righting), I was knocked down in a wind from straight overhead in a fjord, I was in the Contessa and it was not a very interesting experience, but the boat came up very fast and very well---it has this ability. Then again it sailed at a very hard heal at all times.

All of this comes mostly from reading, as I AM NOT AN OCEAN EXPERT. But I have had time in boats with long overhangs and in multi hulls---these hulls are exhausting in heavy and especially short sees.

If I had to buy a built boat (read new not built for me--production) today to do what your asking, I would go with the Westernman 40 of Covey Island Boats.

here are a couple of good sites to see burnett yachts (http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/saildesign.html) or covey (http://www.coveyisland.com/) or of course my dream GSB (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Gloucester-Sloop-Boat.htm) :D

Cheers