Hull finishing

[wee widgeon]

I am restoring hull #1 of a dark harbour 12, built in 1905, and want to get the best possible hull finish. The cedar planks are in good condition, but how can I caulk the seams and stop the shrinking & swelling that cracks the finish? What would be the best fairing compound to smooth the hull out and what's the best primer & paint to use? Do I dare use thickened epoxy to fair the hull, or would this be a crime on such an old sloop? :confused:

[Scott Rosen]

The answer really depends on what kind of a look you want and on how frequently you intend to repaint. Can you tell us more?

[Seth Wood]

Others may correct me on this, but the reason I'd vote against thickened epoxy is not because it would be an anachronism on a 98-year old classic -- although it would be -- but rather because it's incompatible with the flexible nature of planked construction. Putting an inflexible "skin" over a flexible, or once-flexible structure is a recipe for trouble.

Dark Harbor #1 eh? Tell us more! Got pictures?

[Scott Rosen]

Seth, there was an article in a recent issue of WB Magazine in which a highly respected restorer of Herreshoffs recommended fairing an old hull with a compound made of epoxy and micro-balloons.

[Seth Wood]

Scott, that's interesting and I wasn't aware of it. I wish you could pay for and get .pdfs of articles on the WB site. Satisfying immediate curiosity makes me a lot less stingy with my wallet than ordering a back issue does.

Sorry to drag it off topic, Wee Widgeon...There may be more to come from the experts here but it sounds like reading the article Scott recommended is a good start.

[R.I.Singer30]

Seth when I want to see a copy of an old mag I go to a library that has a subscription.I believe the article that was mentioned was WB #170 unless there was another that I don't know about .In this article it was on a large sailboat ,the finish looked like glass.I asked about it in an earlier thread( I tried to search for it but it didn't come up)a few people said they had done it and were pleased.The main point being would you rather have a wood boat that looks like hell or a boat that looks good?I haven't gotten that far yet with my 30'er yet,I'd rather keep her wood showing but it might not be worth the effort.If you wanted to be real anal about it you could complain about all the wood boats that are painted. ;) BOL Dan L.

[Art Read]

Not sure what I can add to the question in hand, but I sure am interested in your boat! Seeing as I'm currently finishing what well may be the most recent build of a Dark Harbor 12 1/2, I'd give my eye teeth to "pick your brain" a bit about some of the details on the very first one! Can you get some digital pictures of her to post here? Do you have any knowledge of her history, etc?

For what it's worth, I have simply gone with good ole' cotton caulking, red lead primer, and Interlux above and below the water line seam compound, all followed up by a couple of coats of George Kirby's best, "Steamship Black Enamel" and lots of patience. Hey, if the seams show a bit, at least folks will KNOW she's really wooden... ;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/pe30eea68f71d60a23cc4eb60a6f555a7/fc463c25.jpg

[merc412]

I've had an affair with the Dark Harbours for years now, the plans hang on the wall. Glad to see similar tastes.

[gordonmc]

I wouldn't go for epoxy. It will be harder than the cedar and difficult to fair down. On my mahogany carvel hull I only had two areas which needed caulking in the accepted sense, so used a mix of red lead and putty (linseed oil) below the waterline and white lead paste and putty above.
The cracks between the planks were superficial but obvious. These were raked out to less than 1mm depth and Interfill was knifed on. Faired down. Coat of primer/undercoat and more Interfill where hollows/imperfections were spotted. This was repeated four times before I was satisfied. A final coat of undercoat (I used Blakes) and she was ready for two coats of Blakes single pot enamel, rolled on and then tipped with a good brush.
I changed the colour from dark green to pearl white as heat build-up in the paint was responsible for m ost of the cracking.

Good luck with yours.

[wee widgeon]

Originally posted by merc412:
I've had an affair with the Dark Harbours for years now, the plans hang on the wall. Glad to see similar tastes.

[wee widgeon]

Originally posted by wee widgeon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by merc412:
I've had an affair with the Dark Harbours for years now, the plans hang on the wall. Glad to see similar tastes.[/QUOT

The Dark Harbour has got to be one of the most beautiful hull designs ever. I am so proud to be an owner of this class of sloop!

[ 05-31-2003, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: wee widgeon ]

[Wild Dingo]

Soooo Im gonna chime in and ask what may seem a rather obvious question after an email discussion on the Dark Harbor with another now quiet forumite recently...

Im about to recieve my plans for the Dark Harbor from Woodenboat... {I too am totally smitten... yeah thanks Art! :rolleyes: } now thing is this is the BB Crowninsheild Dark Harbor {as is Arts} so a question comes to mind when one sees the name Herroshoff appear...

So did Herroshoff design the Dark Harbor originally and BB do a re-draw to what he wanted or did BB create the first Dark Harbor and Herroshoff do a redraw of his to what he wanted or envisioned?... OR... are they 2 totally different boat designs... so wheres it begin Herroshoff or BB Crowninsheild?

Or have I finally totally lost it? ;)

[True Love]

Hey Dingo! Best to you and the family.

Crowninshield designed the Dark Harbors. Herreshoff was simply mentioned in one of the above posts because the WoodenBoat article referred to in that post talked about epoxy fairing techniques used by a guy who does a lot of Herreshoff restorations.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Scott Rosen:
Seth, there was an article in a recent issue of WB Magazine in which a highly respected restorer of Herreshoffs recommended fairing an old hull with a compound made of epoxy and micro-balloons.Do you recall which issue, Scott? The crossover between traditional and gouged is a rather big issue these days. I don't remember seeing the article and would like to read it.

[Paul Scheuer]

That would have been Issue 170. Article by Andy Giblin.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Paul Scheuer:
That would have been Issue 170. Article by Andy Giblin.Thanks, Paul, just read the article. I'd be curious as to Chemist's take on this. Looks like I'm uninformed (nothing new there). Does the epoxy swell with the plank?

[JimD]

Originally posted by wee widgeon:
I am restoring hull #1 of a dark harbour 12, built in 1905, and want to get the best possible hull finish. The cedar planks are in good condition, but how can I caulk the seams and stop the shrinking & swelling that cracks the finish? What would be the best fairing compound to smooth the hull out and what's the best primer & paint to use? Do I dare use thickened epoxy to fair the hull, or would this be a crime on such an old sloop? :confused: Sorry we've sorta hijacked your thread, wee widgeon. You might try to get your hands on WB #170, February 2003. The gist of the article describes using thickened epoxy to fill, fair, and stablize the boards, but to take care to keep the epoxy out of the seems which still require a flexible caulk to prevent further and probably much worse compression damage to the planks. But you say the planks are in good condition, its the seams you're worried about.

As for whether or not its a crime some folks would say yes and others no.

[Ian Wright]

I've had good results, or good fortune, in the past by using traditional materials, slightly underfilling the seams and accepting that they will be visible until two or three years of annual repaints (sand off as much as you put on) make up the difference.
Or,,,,,,use car body filler as a fairing compound, P38 in the UK, it's less um,,,epoxified. I've seen it work.
IanW.

[JimConlin]

The recent WB article about fairing was using the epoxy bog strictly as a surface fairing material and not as a seam filler.

[Gary Bergman]

Please email me when you get the answer as I've tried all conventional things on my cedar hull, but the tradeoff of cedars rot resistance is that it seems to be one of the more expansive woods. Best I ever do is as Art said,cotton and lead.

[wee widgeon]

Originally posted by JimD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wee widgeon:
I am restoring hull #1 of a dark harbour 12, built in 1905, and want to get the best possible hull finish. The cedar planks are in good condition, but how can I caulk the seams and stop the shrinking & swelling that cracks the finish? What would be the best fairing compound to smooth the hull out and what's the best primer & paint to use? Do I dare use thickened epoxy to fair the hull, or would this be a crime on such an old sloop? :confused: Sorry we've sorta hijacked your thread, wee widgeon. You might try to get your hands on WB #170, February 2003. The gist of the article describes using thickened epoxy to fill, fair, and stablize the boards, but to take care to keep the epoxy out of the seems which still require a flexible caulk to prevent further and probably much worse compression damage to the planks. But you say the planks are in good condition, its the seams you're worried about.

As for whether or not its a crime some folks would say yes and others no.</font>[/QUOTE]

[wee widgeon]

Originally posted by wee widgeon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wee widgeon:
I am restoring hull #1 of a dark harbour 12, built in 1905, and want to get the best possible hull finish. The cedar planks are in good condition, but how can I caulk the seams and stop the shrinking & swelling that cracks the finish? What would be the best fairing compound to smooth the hull out and what's the best primer & paint to use? Do I dare use thickened epoxy to fair the hull, or would this be a crime on such an old sloop? :confused: Sorry we've sorta hijacked your thread, wee widgeon. You might try to get your hands on WB #170, February 2003. The gist of the article describes using thickened epoxy to fill, fair, and stablize the boards, but to take care to keep the epoxy out of the seems which still require a flexible caulk to prevent further and probably much worse compression damage to the planks. But you say the planks are in good condition, its the seams you're worried about.

As for whether or not its a crime some folks would say yes and others no.</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]It's the seams which crack and break the paint that drive me crazy. There is a sitka flex seam compound in the seams, and it was recently re-caulked with cotton. What then would be the most flexible fairing compound to use prior to paint? Can I place this compound over the plank and seam to fix any imperfections, or do I need a seperate product for each of them?

[Scott Rosen]

We've had some pretty heated debates over which seam compound to use.

I like Interlux Seam Compound (White) for above the water line and Interlux Seam Compound (Brown) for below. Both are oil-based putties which stay flexible for a long time and hold paint well. The planks will move less if you can keep your boat in the water year 'round.