Design Proposal

[Roger Long]

Buying a sailboat and participating in this forum have reawakened my long dormant interest in yacht design. Having just drawn up a dinghy for our boat, I think it would be fun to design a small yacht again.

My clients for the past couple of decades have primarily been institutional. I design complex vessels for large groups of stakeholders who have different and often competing needs that must be met in the same vessel. My stock in trade is producing workable vessels out of these masses of design input.

Those of you who have looked at my web site know that I have some idea of what traditional vessels should look like even though I now design modern craft with metal hulls and big engines.

Yacht Designs (http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Boats.htm)

Academic institutions are big email users so most design discussions in my practice are carried out that way. This forum is similar so here is my proposal:

There have been a lot of posts recently about what I could call the “Maxi trailer cruiser”. Annual storage and boatyard costs will make a boat that can be brought home on a trailer, at least for the winter, the only practical craft for many. This is a crowded design niche but I think there is still room to design a superior vessel in it.

I’d like to treat this forum as my client, just as I do the big email groups for my research designs, and see how close we can collectively get to the perfect boat. The discussions are as much the object as the final design. I’ll post sketches as it develops and, maybe sometime in the depths of another winter, it might even get as far as a set of building plans.

If any of you would like to participate in this, post some ideas. Following standard design practice, we would start with the basic parameters. 7’ – 11 15/16” beam over the guards is a given for this kind of vessel but everything else is on the table. How long? Maximum displacement? Then, on to the really fun stuff.

[John Bell]

Grand idea! As an amateur scribbler of boat designs, I'll be very interested to watch how this project develops.

My general requirements for a trailerable cruiser would include:

- Low profile while on the trailer. This makes for much easier launching and retreival.

- Quick to rig, with tabernacled mast(s) and a simple but powerful sailplan.

- Light enough that a regular duty full sized pickup could tow it. Let's say less the 5000 lbs on the trailer at the maximum, with 4,000 lbs being the ideal.

BTW, I looked through your web site and noticed your 9' dinghy. I was struck by the similarities to what I plan for my next project,an 11'er of my own design. (http://mistermoon.home.mindspring.com/wishing_blossom.jpg) And here I was thinking I was breaking new ground... ;)

[N. Scheuer]

"4000 lbs on the trailer being ideal"
"low on the trailer"
"simple, powerful sailplan"
"easy to rig"

This sounds exactly like the 28-ft Shearwater Yawl TRUE NORTH in which we've been cruising over the last 10 years. She was buiult by Edey & Duff in 1987.

Moby Nick

[John Bell]

Originally posted by N. Scheuer:
This sounds exactly like the 28-ft Shearwater Yawl TRUE NORTH...<chuckle> I suppose I have been unduly influenced by Mr. Bolger in my thinking...

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by John Bell:
Let's say less the 5000 lbs on the trailer at the maximum, with 4,000 lbs being the ideal. Should that be 4000/5000 pounds stripped to the minimum to move the boat between the backyard and the harbor once a year or loaded with all the gear and consumables for a cruise? It makes quite a difference.

Trailer sailing vs twice a year trailering is a big initial decision that effects the whole course of the design. For the later, you could have a much more capable boat by incorporating some removable ballast.

[mmd]

An interesting project, Roger; it will be interesting to watch its progress. I'm sure you are aware that a similar design project for a cruising powerboat has been on-going over at BoatDesign.Net, aren't you?

I vote for the 5000# max weight be as stripped-out for the twice-yearly trip between home and launch ramp/travel lift. Assume that she'll live on a mooring for the season. That'll make her more accessible to a wider audience, 'cause you can always hire a truck twice a year but if you plan on towing her regularly, the cost to build just went up by the amount of a truck dedicated to haul her.

Also, since this is a design exercise and not a commission, I'd lean toward a "tabloid cruiser". Since there are no strictures other than towing width, you have the freedom to make it a character boat that need not follow a current fashion trend. I vote for a classic form as developed from the early days of the Seawanaka Rule era, with moderate overhangs and reasonably high L/B ratio. Her underbody should incorporate the best of modern knwoledge, though - how about a below-waterline centreboard housed within a moderate (25% of displacement?) ballast keel?

Enough from me. I'll peek back regularly to see how this transpires.

[rbgarr]

Quoting mmd: "...a similar design project for a cruising powerboat has been on-going over at BoatDesign.Net..."

What's the name of that thread? I'd like to look at what's been proposed. Thx.

[JimD]

Count me in. This sounds like a great project, although one obvious problem being that the perfect maxi trailer yacht for me may not be much like someone elses, but here's what I'd start with, in no particular order.

Overall salty, traditional lines. Roomy, strong, and workboat like with off shore capability.

It must be easy to build. Multi-chine plywood, perhaps four panels per side which would give enough shape but still go together quickly. Battens at the chines for strength is ok but not ply lap. Either V-bottom or a narrow, flat keel panel. Dory hull maybe but please, not a sharpie. Plywood bulkheads. Length not much over 22 feet. There always seems to be a tendency to stretch tabloid designs longer and longer until they no longer are very convenient to trailer. I drive a six cylinder, three litre pick-up and don't want to buy a new truck just to haul a boat. Transom hung rudder, possibly a kick up. For shoal sailing there's not much point having a retractable centerboard if the rudder still needs four feet of water.

Quite well ballasted so she can handle heavy weather and squalls if encountered and if possible no forging required. A combination of steel plate centerboard and inside scrap would be fine. No water ballast. A daggerboard with an iron or lead bulb might also work.

Raised deck or flush deck to maximize interior cabin space could be considered but in any event good sitting headroom not to be sacraficed to keep the profile low. The cabin has to offer as much convenience and comfort as possible, not just 'camping style'.

Self draining cockpit, on the small side for safety reasons but could have room for an outboard engine well so the the engine would not have to be transom mounted, plus snug seating for mom, dad, and two kids or guests.

Inboard sail plan would be nice. Either gaff or marconi. Not one of the many cat rigs. Needs a jib of one sort or another. Must be versatile and easily managed and reefed by singlehander. I'd rather a conservative sailplan that requires less reefing and changing rather than the so called generous sail plan for light airs. If there's that little wind I'll fire up the engine or be content to bob around going nowhere until it picks up, or else invest in a spinnaker. Ketch or yawl maybe but must be room for self steering gear.

[ 04-24-2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[G. Schollmeier]

rbgarr

Look for Option 1 it’s a very informative thread and a great resource. Design done by a mixture of amateurs and pros. In the display options window select “beginning” to get the whole thread

gary :D

[ 04-24-2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: G. Schollmeier ]

[Venchka]

Roger,

Somewhere in an email exchange, I mentioned your 21' sloop updated for plywood planking, self-draining cockpit, shoal draft, lighter and trailerable. If I didn't mention it earlier, I just did. I know now that you have designed the self-draining cockpit/companionway. Offering an either/or cockpit and hatch arrangement should appeal to a wider audience. Shoal draft and lighter weight may be tricky at best.

Jim,

If you will look at gaff sloop rigs as defined by W. & J. Atkin, Paul Gartside, etc. you'll see that everything can be handled from the cockpit. The primary jib is set up on roller furling gear. The heavy air jib is tacked to the stem head and hoisted after the light jib is furled. If the wind overpowers a reefed main and small jib, furl all sail and fire up the engine. For very light air, the tack of a reaching 'chute is hauled out to the end of the bowsprit and hoisted on it's own halyard. No pole, single sheet, piece of cake. Roger's own 21' sloop (the Atkins would call it a knockabout) has all lines lead to the cockpit.

I can see that this project may have already evolved byond what I'm looking for in a trailerable, cruising sailboat. As one who is basically landlocked, towing to distant cruising grounds in a fact of life. I'll wait for Trailerable Sailboat Design Proposal, Part Deaux. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

The primary jib is set up on roller furling gear. Wayne, I realize this may be unavoidable. I realize the system you describe works well and many sailors are very happy with it and I'm sure I would be, too. A retractable bowsprit is a beautiful thing :cool:

Edited to add: But also I am a worry wart always looking at worst case senarios such as a roller reefer that fails just as a storm approaches. I wouldn't want to have to just let go the sheets and watch the jib flog to shreds. Hmmmm...maybe I could just jury rig the whole darn gizmo on an outhaul if it bothers me so much, eh? :D

[ 04-24-2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Venchka:
I can see that this project may have already evolved byond what I'm looking for in a trailerable, cruising sailboat. Don't give up yet, Wayne. It isn't necessarily "first post - first dibs" on something like the weight. This is still an open question.

I have no experience with trailering. I'd like to hear some more ideas on what the maximum practical length is, assuming weight isn't a problem.

[Venchka]

Jim,

Here's how I understand things:

Ok, the furler packs up at the worst minute. STUFF does happen. Lower the light jib halyard and pull the head back over deck to the cockpit. The luff is siezed on wire. The whole thing comes down on the halyard. Secure it. Hoist small jib. Sail away. By the way, the bowsprit for an 18' sloop is only 2'-6" to 3'-0" beyond the stem.

Next problem?

PS: The maximum width on U.S. (and I hope Canadian) highways is 8'-6". Trivial perhaps given the short length of the boat being considered. It does mean a beam of 8'-0" to inside of planking is feasible.

Which brings us to Length/Beam ratio: I hear this term bandied about. How important is it? What ratio should a good boat have? How is it measured? On deck? At the waterline? For example, my boat's length/beam ratio at the deck is 3.16. At the waterline it is 3.3. I have plans for boats ranging from 2.35 to 2.57. What does it all mean?

No worries, Roger. Standing by.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Dave Hadfield]

I trailered a MacGregor 26 for 9 years. Length isn't the problem, DEPTH is. The boat must sit low on the trailer. You want the boat to float once the trailer wheels are immersed. If that's the case, you can launch anywhere and the boat becomes truly portable. Otherwise you need almost perfect launching ramps, which in the out-of-the-way places you want to sail in, are hard to find.

Extending tongues and winching the trailer back and up are difficult and complicated, in comparison.

I trailered all over the place, not just twice a year. If I wanted to make a 2 week cruise in new waters, we went by road, THEN launched the boat. Frankly, even if I lived in MMD's home waters, I'd still want that, so I could sail in Bras D'or, or PEI, or Nfld or wherever.

I'd take the opposite tack and want a boat well under 4000 lbs ready to sail, though perhaps with provisions still on the truck.

I believe there are states with an 8ft limit, not 8.5ft -- you don't want to have to mess with permits.

There is a great deal to be learned from the 1990-1998 MacGregor 26 (that's the Classic, not the current 50hp model). Sure its ugly plastic, but I've never seen anything to equal it for practicality. It launched anywhere, its water ballast made it 1500 lbs on the trailer, it was just under the legal length limit for registration, the same for 2 axles and supplementary braking. It's rig was adequate, yet went up in 10 minutes. It's pop-top gave it standing headroom. It had a head (porta-potty but in a seperate room) and a queen-sized bed (although without headroom). And it was cheap.

But it wasn't wood and looked like all the other white plastic sloops....

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Long:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Venchka:
[qb]I have no experience with trailering. I'd like to hear some more ideas on what the maximum practical length is, assuming weight isn't a problem.We've got a 27' powerboat with a trailer. The whole rig is about 35' long from hitch to the raised motor. It's not a problem to tow on open highway even though close quarters stuff requires some planning. Gas stations are particularly nerve racking. I don't think I'd want to go much longer than that, though. FWIW, we use our boat pretty much as you envision this one. She lives in the water and is only hauled for maintenance or weather related reasons. She's about 4,000 lbs on the road. I would not want to have take her on the highway every time I used her, she's just too big. If I had to drive her home every day, I'd get a lot smaller boat instead.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
...I believe there are states with an 8ft limit, not 8.5ft -- you don't want to have to mess with permits.

The limit on Federal highways is 8'-6". I have asked the owner of our trucking company more than once about this. For the sake of this discussion, perhaps we need to limit ourselves to 8'-0" overall as Roger stated in the beginning. Fair enough?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Dave Hadfield]

Maybe I was thinking of Provinces, or non-Federal highways or something. That Mac 26 was 7 ft 11 in wide for that very reason.

[Frank E. Price]

Roger, how about two boats? One for frequent wetters and one for seasonal wetters.

Also, seems like it would be helpful if respondents identified if their input is as a prospective user or as a fellow designer or a tire kicker.

I have very little trailering experience with sailboats, limited to a couple of years with a good friend who had a plastic Clipper 26. Miserable boat except in its ideal conditions: flat water and moderate breeze.

But you said "Maxi trailer cruiser." I would think maximum beam and displacement within the legal parameters would be desirable for the seasonal boat. Sail area should be less than racy, but more than modest. I keep thinking of Wenda , but that beautiful boat doesn't have much room below. And I would think beauty would have some importance.

Deep cockpit and comfortable cockpit seats, and comfortable seats for two below. Space for a gas hotplate and a wash basin, and a large forepeak for a drifter and the ground tackle. Provision for getting the ground tackle out of the forepeak through a hatch from below. Beefy anchor roller.

I'm a tire kicker.

Frank

[Venchka]

No doubt some backwoods burg somewhere has an 8'-0" limit. 8'-0"(-) beam it is.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Which brings us to Length/Beam ratio: What does it all mean?Length/Beam isn't nearly as important in defining a vessel's behavior as Beam/Draft. I think it was William Garden who said this best in connection with an improbably long and narrow design. He pointed out that, if you cut it in half (it was a double ender) and put transoms on it, you would have two normal looking boats, each with a natural rolling period. If you then bolted them together at the transoms, they would have the same rolling period.

I designed an 18 foot rowing skiff for my Father. He didn't build it because his wife, who was brought up around boats and therefor knows more about them than any mere male naval architect, thought it was too narrow. I said that, if we just cut six feet off and slapped on a transom, we would have a wide twelve foot boat which should be just fine. That didn't get the boat built though.

Mark Van over there in the other post thinks a trailer boat could be up to 28 feet. That's pretty long but length is one of the best things you can have in a boat.

[ 04-24-2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Roger Long ]

[chrisk]

I had found a site that had all the states and the towing restrictions listed. I can't seem to find it now. It ranged from 8' to 9' with 8' 6" seeming to be the most common that I bothered to look at. I don't know if that only applied to state roads or the big federal interstates. But, typically you are going to have to get off the state interstates and onto state roads to get to the water. I didn't bookmark it, but I'll see if I can find it again.

I happened across an interesting Ted Brewer design called "Windswept" in "Pocket Cruisers for the Backyard Builder" by Dave Gerr. It is a canoe yawl with a flat plywood bottom. The topsides are strip planked constant-radius. It's very similar to Steve Redmond's Elver that way. It has a shallow keel under it that has a centerboard that swings up into the keel both are completely below the boat bottom. For the curious stats are

LOA 26' 4"
LWL 24' 1"
Beam 8'
Draft 2' (up) 6' 3" (down)
Disp. 4000
Sail Area: 352
Rig: Bermudan Yawl

The constuction is similar to the "Grand Banks" boats he displays on his web site (http://www.tedbrewer.com/wood.html), but with the constant-radius topsides instead of straight sides.

I bring this up because the plywood bottom and constant-radius strip planked top sides seem like an easy build. I don't know how good something like that sails, although I have heard good things about Ted Brewer's "Grand Banks 22", but having an easy build makes a difference to me. I wish I had the time to do more complicated builds, but it never seems to happen.

My biggest restriction is actually my garage size. I won't be able to put a tent up outside to build, it has to build in my garage. It's a two car garage, but has two doors with a post in between. The entire garage is 24' long by 20' wide. Each opening is 7' 10" wide and 6' 10" tall. Whatever I build will have to fit out one of those openings. It turns out the height is actually causing me as many or more restrictions when I ponder designs then the width.

If I was sure I could get Ted Brewer's "Windswept" out of my garage I'd probably go for it. I taped some battens together to approximate the shape of the sheer and the pattern fits across the diagonal and I can pick it up and walk it out one of the doors, but when it's a completed heavy hull I don't know that I could get it turned exactly right.

So, I would like to see something in the < 24' LOA range and not much more than 8' beam, there is some molding on the sides of the garage doors that I'd be willing to remove to get the boat out that increases the width to 8' 2". I'm also going to need a low profile just to get it out of my garage. No standing headroom for me, sigh... While I'd be happy with 5' of headroom, It's unclear I could get wheels under it and fit it out of my garage. It'd depend on how much more boat there is under the floorboards. I don't want less than 4' of headroom. That is how much I have in my family min-van and seems Ok for sitting.

I am really interested in this. I live in Colorado Springs and there is no water in town. I have to drive an hour in one of three directions to get to a reservoir. Each of them is rather small, the largest being ~4,000 acres. So, it gets kind of boring sailing the same "puddle" over and over. I want to be able to easily move from reservoir to reservoir. My hope is I can get a boat that I mostly leave in the water at one of the reservoirs. But, then take it out for a long weekend or a week or two and keep it at one of the other reservoirs. So, I don't want it to live on a trailer, but I do want to take it out of the water more often then once a year for maintenance.

Chris Kottaridis chriskot@quietwind.net

[ 04-24-2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: chrisk ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by chrisk:
...My biggest restriction is actually my garage size. I won't be able to put a tent up outside to build, it has to build in my garage. It's a two car garage, but has two doors with a post in between. The entire garage is 24' long by 20' wide. Each opening is 7' 10" wide and 6' 10" tall. Whatever I build will have to fit out one of those openings. It turns out the height is actually causing me as many or more restrictions when I ponder designs then the width.
Chris,

You aren't alone. My garage, boat building space, has a similar floor space and the same height restriction. You aren't alone. I bet 99% of all garages built in the last 30-40 years have the same 6'-10" door opening height. That dimension drives what we can build. I would also like to move the boat into the garage on it's trailer. That further limits the height of the boat that will fit.

Am I a tire kicker or a wetter? I'm not sure I want to admit being a wetter in public. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Roger Long]

Here are my initial thoughts:

(1) Swinging keels and heavy centerboards are out. The engineering of such high stress items will drive cost and complexity out of the range of many builders.

(2) I’m leaning first towards the frequent hauling concept. The size is more likely to be compatible with basement or garage building shops and normal vehicles.

(3) 18” maximum draft seems about right to me. The nicest places to visit will be some of the most out of the way and ramps with optimum slope can not be counted on.

(4) As an old catboat sailor, I have a strong bias towards sail carrying power. (Some of my early designs don’t show this but, that was a long time ago.) Catboats are capable way out of proportion to their other characteristics due to their ability to keep punching to windward. We can’t hope to get that kind of power with limited beam and everything that makes the boat trailerable is working against stability. The engine is going to be small and the prop inefficient due to limits on weight and draft. If it is going to be a true cruising boat and not a fair weather showpiece, everything possible must be done to promote stiffness.

(5) Hulls with a wide variety of shapes will have the center of gravity at about the same height if you look at the hull and interior alone subtracting ballast and rig. Ballast is not going to go below the hull as decided in (1). Maximizing ballast ratio by making the rig and everything else as light as possible can only go so far. The primary determinant of power within the other limitations will be waterplane area. This means producing a fairly full ended boat. This isn’t going to look anything like my 21 foot sloop.

(6) One of the few characteristics that don’t conflict between performance and trailering is the need to push waterline area out into the ends. A fairly broad stern is needed to float the boat off. Double enders need not apply although I know that they are often trailered. Since this is a cruising sailboat, accommodations will push the heavy people aft. The more waterplane back there, the less trim will be effected.

(7) I really like boats of this type with some flat of bottom. It makes the trailer roller set up easy, they can be grounded out easily, and there is place to distribute a lot of ballast as low as possible in a form that can provide grounding protection.

(8) Plenty of waterplane area means enough waterline to put it on. If overall length is limited by trailering practacality, you need a good reason not to have a nearly plumb stem.

[ 04-24-2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Roger Long ]

[paladin]

older bridges on most old highways have a 11 foot 6 inch clearance......a very few especially oklahoma, arkansas and texas have a 10 foot 6 inch clearance but those low heights are for the really old narrow roads.....width is sometimes limited to the old standard of 8 foot 2 inches width but I understand traiers now are allowed 8.5 feet width.......but in most states if they decide to measure you and you're an inch over you izz in trouble. My dad wuz a truck driver and knew all of the widths and bridge heighths...about 1958 we were coming back from a drilling rig site with a short lowboy and a blowout preventer. suddenly an 18 wheeler passed us with a large open top trailer loaded with watermelons...dad said there wuz gonna be trouble...and when we caught up the trailer wuz under a bridge with watermelons all over hell's half acre...

[JimD]

So far so good, Roger. Any thoughts yet on a sail plan or plans?

[Roger Long]

A hull like this pretty much designs itself when you define some basic characteristics. The sketch below shows the basic lines that determine the volumes. From here on, it’s just fairing and styling of things like the transom and stem shapes. There is very little that will have a significant effect on the performance or behavior. It’s easiest for me to draw it round bottom at this point. If it ends up a multi panel plywood boat, I’ll just approximate the shape.

Bear in mind that I’ve never in my life showed anyone a sketch this crude. Please see the designs on my website if you doubt that I know how to draw a fair line. This is just a rough template but you can read a lot in it if you know how. It seems in the spirit of this project to present it.

18 inches of draft produces a hull over 6000 pounds so a foot turns out to be plenty. This hull would be 26 feet overall and 24 feet on the waterline. Displacement at the design waterline would be about 4600 pounds. This is a displacement length ratio of 148 so construction would have to be very light and strong and the interior simple. This is ambitiously light for a boat that is supposed to be simple to build and further study could well dictate making her deeper and heavier. The same general characteristics could be retained however. If going over 4600 pounds is not practical, the only option might be to shorten the hull.

The dotted line shows how the hull would be shaped if extended down to a normal keel instead of being cut off a foot below the DWL to form the flat. The edge of the flat and the waterline are shown in the plan view and the quarterbeam buttock in profile.

I’ve shown both sides because it makes it easier to judge a hull at this stage. The design waterline shows a hull with well balanced ends despite the broad transom. There is a lot of reserve buoyancy under those quarters that will translate into sail carrying power when pressed but the stern is not heavy.

This is not a finesse hull. It would perform better in many conditions if the bow were finer and that’s the way I would draw her for daysailing. It’s drawn for those days when the chips are down, you are a long way from anywhere in a very small boat, and you need to push on. A nice byproduct of this will be increased room in the cabin.

Let me know what you think and try to squint through to see what it would look like all faired up and finished.

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Sketch.jpg

[rbgarr]

I'm a former catboat sailor, too, and it's occurred to me that Bill Garden's 'Itatae' cat schooner rig (Marconi main, short gaff on overlapping foresail) would be a handy rig for a maxi-trailerable on a catboat hull. It could be arranged so that the mainmast could be raised and stepped without a crane by means of an a-frame or perhaps by a Bolger-style swinging tabernacle, and then the foremast raising be assisted and steadied by using the mainmast.

I'd want the hull to be longer and slimmer than a catboat but with a similar profile, barndoor rudder and centerboard.

[JimD]

Wow! That was fast! I like it. I like everything about her so far. Very nice transom. Not quite what I expected. It is at the extreme outer limit for size for my needs and means, however, so if it had to be shortened a foot or two I for one would not complain.

BTW, Its unlikely anyone at this forum doubts you can draw a fair line :cool:

[JimD]

This is not a finesse hull...It’s drawn for those days when the chips are down, you are a long way from anywhere in a very small boat, and you need to push on. A nice byproduct of this will be increased room in the cabin.
If a salesman were trying to sell me a boat this is what he should say.

[JimD]

Different strokes for different folks. Aesthetically, its a toss up between the heavier, huskier looks of the lines as drawn by Roger over the more elegant, smaller boats such as the Atkins often drew. I like them both, depending on what I'm in the mood to look at. Interior space becomes the deciding factor. Most people will only ever build one boat of the size we are looking at and I think few are going to make what for them is a very large investment on a boat that is small inside. Roger's preliminary drawings would translate very well into a handsome three chine plywood hull, with a bottom panel and three side panels (or would that be two bottom panels and two side panels?). I already prefer it to most of the options currently available.

[ 04-25-2005, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Dave Hadfield]

I like Roger's lines a lot. Great looking stern and cross section. The boat would have to be built around molds with a combination of strip-plank and plywood, but that's all right. (I'd be tempted though, to build the bottom "flat" out of heavy hardwood.)

If that is 26ft, then I'd like to see her with the bow sections (say the front 8ft) stretched out another 2, for 28. Just a little finer.

I like the large space inside. Also the vertical sides lend themselves easily to leeboards. And she'll take the ground (and more important, the trailer) level. And I can visualize her settled somewhat inbetween the trailer wheels for easy launching.

So... where will the 'board(s) go? And what sort of rig? I'd like to see a mast up forward supported by shrouds and stays, and perhaps a drop-in, independent mast and sail aft of the cockpit, unstayed.

I'd also like a short plank bowsprit. This is great for mounting anchor rollers and extending the sail plan fore-and-aft rather than up-and-down. It can be easily removeable with a wedge through a sampson post and a simple shackle to the bobstay.

Again, harping back to the M26, the mast was deck-stepped. The only stay you detached for transport was the forestay. It was a light mast to power a light boat, so you simply walked the mast back and down as it pivoted on the deck-step. It sat into a "crotch" that popped into a bracket on the aft cockpit bulkhead. Then you went forward and undid the 1 bolt that the mast pivoted on, and slid the whole unit forward until the foot came up to a fitting welded on the pulpit. The same bolt fitted there and held the whole thing solid. Then you wrapped the shrouds and bacstay with the halyards for transport, and the job was done. Took only minutes. I did it myself with no help, but a tackle could also be used for raising it as the muscles age. (Oh, I forgot, the boom came off again with 1 bolt.)

And I still like water ballast. The thing about that is, it takes almost no structure to contain a tank of water. Very little heavy reinforcement. But to contain a mass of steel or lead takes more (heavy) hull structure. (But where you're going to put the extra volume of the water tanks, I don't know.)

[RodB]

I like the profile too, and I would also like to see the length extended a bit.

RB

[PVanderwaart]

Every bit you increase the size, you reduce the pool of potential builders. I would think that every time you bump to the next hitch class, you lose quite a percentage. For my 2250lb boat, I assume that boat plus trailer comes close to the max for a class 2 hitch. This boat is too heavy for me to want to depend on getting it up a ramp with my front-wheel drive van, although it tows fine on the flat.

So far as I am aware, there have not been many really successful trailer sailboats over 2500lbs.

The ability to step and unstep the mast is a major cost factor in launching. You want a good, usable tablernacle in order to avoid paying for the crane at the marina.

Peter

From the Draw-Tite web site:

Class 1 Trailer Hitches.....Rated at a total of 2,000 pounds/200 pounds tongue weight.

Class 2 Trailer Hitches.....Rated at a total of 3,500 pounds/300 pounds tongue weight.

Class 3 Trailer Hitches.....Rated at 3,500 pounds/300 pounds tongue weight up to 10,000 pounds/1,000 pounds tongue weight. Class 3 trailer hitches will be rated based on the capacity of the vehicle they fit. These hitches also have additional capacity to carry heavier loads when utilized with Weight Distributing Equipment and can go as high as 12,000 pounds.

[paladin]

about 3-4 months before my recent illness...i drew a boat very similar...bottom to be sheet ply but really intended to make 2 inch wide tongue and groove planks there, strip plank from below turn of the bilge to gunnel...27.5 feet long..
then added a little more freeboard...and considered a cat ketch or cat schooner rig with camberspars.....then started increasing the beam..got to 12.5 feet and made it look like mmd's tug or similar to Devlin's Czarina.....
gotta figure out something i can handle solo....

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
And I still like water ballast. Water ballast does nothing for sail carrying power that could not be equally gained by simply raising the bottom of the hull to reduce the volume by the same amount. This is a matter of the basic physics of stability.

In a wide, shallow hull, there will be some stability gain when the water ballast tanks are raised above the waterline in heeling but this will not be relevant to most normal sailboat hulls.

Using water ballast means making the flow lines steeper around the larger hull which adds drag. The boat will have more inertia which is advantageous under some circumstances but it also represents increase power requirements.

Occasionally, it is desirable to move the bottom lower from the surface for reasons like reducing pounding. Water ballast could be an appropriate way to do this if on land weight is important. In fact, I recently designed an amphibious tour boat that used free flooding or water ballast spaces for this same reason.

I said above that these lines are laid out to maximize sail carrying power. I don’t mean to imply that this is a powerful boat. The requirements of trailering and light displacement make it inherently a not very gutsy boat so everything has been done to counter that without making it a barge. Water ballast could only hurt her performance.

Another way of looking at it, which is exactly rooted in the physics, is that the water ballast is there. The six inches of hull that isn’t there under the bottom IS water ballast.

[Roger Long]

Originally posted by PVanderwaart:
Every bit you increase the size, you reduce the pool of potential builders. Class 2 Trailer Hitches.....Rated at a total of 3,500 pounds/300 pounds tongue weight.

Class 3 Trailer Hitches.....Rated at 3,500 pounds/300 pounds tongue weight up to 10,000 pounds/1,000 pounds tongue weight. This is really food for thought. A boat most people would cruise in clearly isn't going to be a Class 1.

Trying to hit a number like 3,500 makes me really nervous after a lifetime of designing to tight weight limits. Unless we leave a very substantial margin, the builder is going to have to watch weight very closely. Then constant vigilance will be required during operation to insure that some extra gear thrown in doesn't result in a fine at a weight station.

I can't help noticing that, once you are into Class 3, you don't have to worry about the weight from the hitch standpoint any more, at least within the other limits we are talking about.

[Stephen Hutchins]

I'll vote to stretch her a little, and, since I'm so bent on looks, a curved transom with maybee a little tumble home. For low weight, what about speed strip 'n glass? -plywood bottom maybee? I'm an amature designer.

[Buddy]

Thirty years with a trailerable 22' 4400 Morgan and and 27 years with a 3500 pound 22' custom tell me that's transportable, not trailerable.

At 1500 pounds , my Whaler and MarshCat are very trailerable.

Trailerable means 55+ miles to get to spend more time saved at the creme de la creme cruising,sailing grounds.

I'd go every bit of the 8 1/2' beam for accomodations. 22 to 24 feet is the length limit.
Flush deck for max cruising, narrow trunk cabin wide side decks for daysailor. Offer both.

Deck stepped hinged mast withj sliding collar or just a shorter mast and a gaff rig so stowed rig barely overhangs stern.

Mail should stow on boom, boom ( and gaff)remove easily and stow inside cabin. Ditto outboard rudder and outboard. Outboard should weigh no more than 50 pounds.

I'd think the practicality of towing this boat would diminish as weight eases above 1500 pounds, and the crusiability features increase.

About 2500 pounds I'd think the benefit tradeoffs would cross over to another whole category of transportable boat.

There is way more benefit to a trailerable boat than cheaper off season storage at home instead of year round marina bills. I wouldn't want to lose them to extra pounds.

[Venchka]

This hull would be 26 feet overall and 24 feet on the waterline. Displacement at the design waterline would be about 4600 pounds. Another way of looking at it, which is exactly rooted in the physics, is that the water ballast is there. The six inches of hull that isn’t there under the bottom IS water ballast.Y'all lost me completely. I'm going back under my rock. Dream up ways to stay dry on an open boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by PVanderwaart:
Every bit you increase the size, you reduce the pool of potential builders. This would certainly be true for me. Perhaps making her 28 feet would make her the perfect 'maxi' trailer boat but it would be too maxi for my money. I would have to say 'Great looking boat and wish I could, but I'll have to settle for something smaller."

[Roger Long]

I’m convinced now that the trailer-cruiser with all the gear thrown in it needs to be comfortably under 3,500. Some people will be able to make the larger boat a trailer cruiser but not enough to make it a practical design concept.

Scaled down at a D/L ratio of 150, the boat would be 22 feet on the waterline and 24 overall for 3500 pounds displacement. That works out to a classic 1 to 3 length to beam ratio.

Here, through the magic of the AutoCad shrink and stretch function and with a little tweaking, is a 24 x 22 x 7.8 foot 3500 pound boat. Flush decks take a lot of study to make look right so don’t look too closely but it gives you an idea of where things would be. I’ve stuck a rower in there for scale.

(I will soften up that forward shoulder in the waterline. The shrinking has made it a bit too prominent.)

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Sketch2.jpg

[outofthenorm]

To my eye that's the beginning of a very attractive little vessel. Even with the strong sheer it looks like there would be a lot of internal volume for the length. The near-vertical stem is a nice touch. A short bowsprit would be pretty (could be removable). Would it be possible to make the transom a wee bit narrower? - Norm

[Jeremy Burnett]

The profile looks quite similar to Nigel Irens Romilly,the waterlines look hollow in the bow to English eyes.The strip plank version of Romilly at 22' overall has a max displacement of 3360 lbs.

[JimD]

One last comment about ballast centerboards. Roger, I appreciate you are against them however two companies/designers that are probably the most successful trailer sailer designers in the business, Hartley and Glen-L, both use them extensively. A CB of 400 lbs or so places a considerable percentage of the ballast quite low and these are quite easily handled by any small hand cranked winch. There doesn't seem to be that much of an engineering problem for DIY builders, either. Also, you say you like dagger boards. Why not a bulb on a DB?

[ 04-26-2005, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Hwyl]

Roger, that's a pretty looking boat and yes Jeremy, it does look a little like Rommilly.

I'm glad you settled for the trailerable regularly design.

Are you planning on a buildathon?

[mbogo]

I like the 22' version better also. I had a 22' Aquasport center console for some years. That's as big as I wanted to trailer. No problem on the highways, but try getting around in some small landing or gas station - ouch. The smaller version of your boat will be a much better fit for those of us who need to have the boat on the trailer all the time - unless it is actually sailing. There's no way I would have a 26 or 28 ft sailboat I had to drive to the water every time I wanted to use it. Looks real nice so far!

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Y'all lost me completely. I'm going back under my rock. Dream up ways to stay dry on an open boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Put wheels on it and go dry lake sailing! :D