Help...First-timer needs counsel and leads

[Sheep]

Although a past owner of 7 powerboats (15-28') and 30 years of inland and offshore experience, I'm new to this site and seriously interested in becoming a "sailor" for the first time...only beginning to search for good basic sailing manuals. I have an interest in wooden wherry/whitehall designs, for occasional rowing, but primarily sailing....but I'm not set on this particular type of boat. I love their beauty as much as anything.
Need some suggestions on the following:
1) "Best/most efficient sail arrangement on boats 17-19' I have no idea if gaff, sprit, etc is best. I'm not interested in something that I can pretty much "master" in a couple weeks, yet not so complicated that I'd become frustrated with its hyper-finnicky thoroughbred nature. It won't be raced!
2) Of the above-mentioned boats, or any others you deem better, which would sail the fastest and handle sea conditions best? The sounds here can become very uncomfortably choppy so I prefer deep ocean even if that get's a bit snotty.
3) Daggerboard, kick up centerboard, keel only???
4) Round bottom, flat bottom, or combo thereof?
5) I've been in contact with a builder (45years exp) who does mostly cedar strip construction. I'm not interested in lapstrake (although also beautiful) due to its drag. Is there any other type of construction which would be better for seaworthiness, speed, and handling? The boat with rigging must weigh no more than 500lb.

There are relatively few sailboats (wood tiny minority) in this area as sounds are so shallow, and huge majority is more sportfishing-oriented, with small CC's to huge offshore runners.

I feel very inept at even asking questions for I'm trying to get a sense if the boat(s) I'm considering are "proper"...I'll receive any suggestions/expertise for I want to make the most of this new endeavor and keep this first sailboat a long time. Would be thrilled to get something to push 10+kt in a good breeze...if that's even possible! Oh, I don't want expecially to hiked out over the gunwales workin' every ounce of speed out it. If you know of any book that answers all/most of these questions, please list that.

Thank you so much in advance....David

[ 08-12-2002, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Sheep ]

[Pearl]

Contact Graham Burns in Vandermere for some help that will fit your needs. He is just east of Oriental, N.C. just down the road from you. I think he goes by the name of B&B Designs but not sure right now if that is how he is listed. Type in Tom Lathrop on the search feature here and give him a mail. He is close friends with him also.

[Mr. Know It All]

Sheep.......Welcome to the Forum. I know very little about sailboats and can't offer much advise but like you I would like to learn. You're in the right place and should get some good advise from those in the know. This Forum is a fantastic resource for information.
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Tom Lathrop]

Yeah Sheep,

Get on over to Graham Byrnes' website and see his boats and read the material there on sail rigs. These boats are designed for the area you are interested in and fit your size, weight and use qualifications.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/

Easy driving distance for you to get a first hand talk to the designer too.

[ 08-12-2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Buddy Sharpton]

A wood boat 17 feet is likely to weigh more than 500 pounds built conventionally. Is it going to live on a trailer? If so, look for ply. glued lap, or cold molded construction. Strip plank could work, particularly is glassed outside, but I am doubtful it would meet your weight.
Simarly, keel boat is precluded at this weight. Centerboard or daggerboard both could, centerboard is a little more difficult to build, but more rugged in groundings, and gives better helm balance options than daggerboard. If you're going deep ocean, look for a partially decked craft ( bow and side decks, even coamings, and positive flotation or air chambers so you can self rescue-not just float- if you dump it. A 500 pound 17 foot boat will be fun, but corky, and capable of capsize with mishandling. Not to say it is dangerous or difficult combination, but it will be a performance daysailor.

Whitehalls are lovely, I have one, but it is not a could offshore along shore choice to bring on or off a surf beach. It is slow to tack as well, truly a better hull for rowing than sailing. Sounds like your proportional use will be the reverse.

I would look for a sloop rig, gaff of marconi- likely anything this size will involve you with shrouds to set up mast anyway- sadly this increases the rig/ unrig time- but if you.re capable to leave it on a trailer at the marina but rigged- get a boat cover and what the hey. Otherwise an unstayed gunter rig, or sprit rig with all spars shorter rhan the boat and capable of being stored within, even rowed home this way, is a real convenience to consider. Ptherwise you might be looking at 45 minutes to set up, and 45 minutes to put away which really shoots a hole in the likelyhood you'll take the boat out for a while this afternoon after work.

Joel White, Ian Outred, and others have traditional designs that could fill the bill here with glued lapsrake consruction, but 17 feet and 500 pounds will take careful design choices, even scantling changes and careful building but which could still make a less durable boat in groundings and trailering on rough roads.

[Buddy Sharpton]

By the way, 10 knots in any 17 foot boat will be tough. A planing racing dinghy could reach it and hod it surfing down waves in 15 to 20 knots of wind, but it will be a lot more realistic to be thrilled with six knots and comfortable with 5. Lots of boats this size will struggle to average 4.

[Alan Peck]

Heres my one cents worth (not sure its worth two cents).

Its hard enough to choose a boat to build when you are familiar with the type boats you are interested in.

If you have little or no sailing experience, then it would seem to be close to impossilbe to make the appropriate choice.

If it were me, I would buy a fairly inexpensive, used, 15' or so, sloop whether it is wood or fiberglass. Gain a little sailing experience and you'll be a lot better position to choose.

You'll have fun and should be able to sell it without having too much net expense.

[Sheep]

I appreciate the suggestions and leads. The 17' wherry (strip built in Ontario) I have had an eye on weighs in at approx 300lb with sailing gear. Builder says to extend that to 18/19' and to strengthen the hull for offshore jaunts would take it to 500-600lb range. There is very little trailering needed for this boat....most would ever be 1.5hours, but it would be stored in on trailer already rigged. I know several people who live on the water and have their own ramps or would allow me to keep the boat in their yards and only have to travel at the most 2-10mi depending on which public ramp I chose to launch from. Once launched I am only 45min from inlets right to ocean...catching the rise/fall in tide is crucial at one of these without an auxiliary. I would rarely ever have to launch from a beach; in many places on the banks here the drop is so fast you are quickly beyond the breaker line.

Yes Alan, that is being taken into consideration also. That would mean forgetting rowing (man I need to burn off some midriff flotation), and going pure sailboat to learn first.

Oh yes, the boat would be built with probably a 4-5' forward deck and broader gunnel than stock...absolutely with flotation.

After thinking on it a bit, I probably was too high on sailing speed for this vessel. I really like lightning-types (had an uncle who built and raced one) but not too sure of their ability to go offshore even under decent conditions. I prefer a bit more freeboard though. I guess you can tell I'm not an inshore person...want to get as far away as possible from the hot-rodders. But on day with no more than 15kt breeze, there is an awful lot of inland water to keep away from them....I just prefer the rolling of sea swells to mad chop.

I have sent off letter to B&S Whitehall for info on their boats (fiberglass hull) but as yet have not been contacted in return. And yes, I'm familiar with Oriental, NC...one area which has numerous sailing craft so I will take a little drive to check with the builder(s) you suggested. Nice cozy stop on intracostal too. My launchings would be in/around Harkers Island and Beaufort. When I was a Yank, I boated out of Barnegat and cruised between Catskill, NY and Stone Harbor, NJ.

The problem with "asking" a boat to do too many things are the compromises you have to make, which usually mean nothing is truly optimum. I know these are pulling boats and tend to excel in that area, but one fellow who has a whitehall on the Hudson seems to think it has a good turn of speed. So what do I know? LOL

So if anyone else has more to add...I'll take even a half-cent's worth, I'm all ears. Thanks again fellows, David

[ 08-12-2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Sheep ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

I guess my question would be why take up sailing in a type of boat that usually doesn't make a particularly good sailboat? - especially if you're looking for offshore capability and high speed performance? Most wherry-type designs get very simple sails aimed more at occasional sailing in good conditions than performance sailing.

[Pearl]

Harkers Island and Beaufort needs more than a Wherry design if you intend to sail it in the spring time and the fall.

[ishmael]

I agree that you should get an old O'day Javelin, or Daysailor, or some such, and go sailing. Should be able to pick one up cheap, and while you learn you can think about what you want to build. Lots to learn from just days on the water.

[Tom Lathrop]

If you can get your hands on a Whitehall with a sailing rig that will make even half of the desired 10kts, launch it at Harkers and go out through Barden Inlet and past the Cape Lookout Bight into the Atlantic. After a few minutes (on an average day) you will have had your fill of the ocean (figuratively and literally) in any such boat and will welcome the protection of the sounds behind the banks.

The sounds and rivers of eastern NC can provide all the excitement any sane person could want from a boat. If you really want to go outside the banks for a pleasant daysail, this is what you can expect if the gods are mischievous.

https://www.catsailor.com/worrell02/w_leg11.html

[Buddy Sharpton]

I have sailed my 'glass Cape Dory 14 Whitehall in Beaufort along the waterfront, on the lake in Ocracoke (sp), and such but would be leary of anything alongshore, much less offshore, except on that lucky perfect day. Its a fine boat for long tacks along the rivers and sounds to go to an island for picnic or camping, or explore the waterfront, but really stops in its tracks in short tacking in tight marinas. I've had all I could handle in the open harbor of Charleston at times. Not a great choice for staying dry in a stiff breeze. Too low freeboard, too fine forward, the water slices up the hull to the gunnel, splatters against the rail, becomes airborne and flies back all over you. The prime reason I went to the beamier and larger (1100 pounds)Marsh Cat for such outtings. The Cape Dory is a great rower, and a fine sailor within limitations and informed expectations, but the ladies find her too tippy to enjoy in anything but a bathing suit at the beach if its blowing. The Cape Dory 10 is the one I throw in the water at the lake or salt water bay for the few hours sail. Much more lively to accelerate after tacks, no more tippy, and drier. Slower over the bottom.

[Sheep]

Again, I thank you for all your rather strong suggestions that a wherry/whitehall is not the choice for going offshore as a sailing vessel.

Tom, that link would not download the pics to see what happened. But I just went to the B&B website you listed. That 20' boat looks like it would be the much better boat to consider at this time, and it's very reasonable. Should be very resaleable too if/when I ever decide to move up. It has good 8kt speed too.

So I'm appreciative on any suggestion on any other design that would work well...kind of have to leave rowing out of the picture now; get another boat only for that purpose. Want to stay around maximum of 1000lb for trailerability with smaller vehicle.

[ 08-13-2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Sheep ]

[Ian McColgin]

If you're really determined to sail 'off-shore' (what I'd call along shore but in the ocean, off a dynamic beach) use a surf suitable boat like the chamberlain gunning dory.

Slow sailor but she'll get you out and back in one piece.

Actually it sounds like you could season up quite a bit in sailing and human power boating before you really settle in. It's easier to learn to really sail in a boat with good performance. So why not get into something like a Thistle - repairable wooden units available at good price. Or that nice little unit Don is looking at in another thread here. Good boat for inside the barrior islands. Really learn to sail.

Seperatly find some surf guys and learn that unique skill.

Then begin from a knowledgable perspective to put together your goals. The things that make a good small sailing boat - if CB nice flat sections but hollow in the bow and firm in the buttocks, if keel nice soft bilges may work - are terrible for surf as they either broach to easily, hit the dirt too soon, or both. You need to piddle around in boats that you know are good for one thing but not another, don't be tempted to push her in the wrong direction, before you can correctly evaluate the compromises you may want to make.

G'luck

[Sheep]

Ian, I think I've begun reevaluating my expectations for a sailboat; it's going to be for sailing 95% of time with a kicker where necessary. I'll get something small/cheap for the rowing exercise. I'm not interested in running surf with rowboat or sailboat...I'll stick to the clean water as much as possible. I don't want a sailing/racing thoroughbred. Tom's link has helped me tremendously get a better focus. Learning to sail is not so much the problem as getting the right boat/rig for the area. The worst thing you could have is a boat that can't or won't do what the task calls for. This site and the comments were extremely helpful, as I knew it would be. I have run across Thistles somewhere and I'll see if I can find where it was. Anyway, the whitehall for sailing, particularly easy offshore stuff has become a dead issue. Tom has included a link to a local sailboat designer/builder who can help. A very nice 20' ketch-rigged daysailer. So we're getting closer!
Thanks again, David

[ 08-13-2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Sheep ]

[Tom Lathrop]

On the subject of the cat ketches on B&B's website, I have built the 15 and sailed it on the local waters, including from Harkers and out to Cape Lookout and coastal Maine, Canada and even in the Great Lakes a bit. The people who bought it from me have camp/cruised it along the Sea of Cortez. It will handle the rough water but is a bit wet when doing it.

The 17 is my choice over the 20 though. The 20 is a great boat but the 17 is so much easier to rig and manage that it gets my vote. Setting up masts, rigging and general launching gets much more involved from one to the other. The 17 has all the features that you mentioned. One is currently building in the boatbuilding class at Pamlico Community College. A 20 is almost completed by Sam Rogers of Atlantic Beach and another has been built in Morehead City (I forget the owner's name). All three boats are designed with multiple flotation tanks for security.

The cat ketch sprit boom rig has so much to recommend it for this kind of use that I would consider no other. For short handed sailing in this area, a Thistle is near the bottom of my list even though it is a great boat in its element.