Fenwick Williams Catboat

[Lion]

Am considering an 18' version of this well regarded design, needs a lot of work! Have no experience with Catboats so have few questions re sailing characteristics.
That big undivided gaff rig looks like it would have a fair bit of weather helm in a blow. With large wetted surface is she a bit of a slug in a gentle breeze? Offshore behavior? Any other comments?

[PugetSound]

Catboats are very interesting boats. They can be phenomenal sailors but they do have some, well, let's just call them 'characteristics' that you will definitely want to know about before you sail in one. And no they are not, as a rule, slugs in a gentle breeze (depends upon just how brave you are with that huge sail). What you really really want is to get "The Catboat Book" (by a host of authors -including Williams) and published by 'The Catboat Association' with International Marine (Copyright 1973, 1991). Check out the Woodenboat Store, I am sure they have it and it is well worth the investment.

[rbgarr]

If by 'offshore' you mean long distance voyaging, an 18' catboat is not a good choice.

[Lion]

RGB; By 'Offshore' I guess I mean the ability to sail along the coast between bays and anchorages in the right conditions, but not have my heart in my mouth if it pipes up a bit. No long distance cruising contemplated.

[Art Read]

Not being familiar with Australian waters, I'd just venture to say that a cat boat, (Cape Cod style) is a good, seaworthy boat for it's purpose. On the east coast of the U.S., I'd be comfortable "coast hopping" in one along the the New England/Long Island/Chesapeake/Pamlico Sound areas. (As long as I wasn't sailing with a crew too demanding of "creature comforts..) On our west coast, I wouldn't venture out very far from the Strait of Juan de Fuca, the Golden Gate, San Diego Harbour or any other of the few protected waters out here with one. It''s a great boat that will sail through worse weather than you probably want to, but I wouldn't want to have to commit to "staying out" in one when going back is no longer an option.

[Scott Rosen]

I love sailing a good catboat. They can be very fast, especially off the wind. In a blow, you get a lot of weather helm, but that's what you have reef points for, and you can play with the halyards a bit too. They can have decent speed to windward, but you can't point as high as a good Marconi rigged sloop. No slug in a gentle breeze--the big sail takes care of that. One of the great benefits is the comfort afforded by the tremdous stability because of the wide beam. I have seen some 18' catboats that are seaworthy coastal cruisers. L.F. Herreshoff's "The Compleat Cruiser" has much to say about the design as a practical and comfortable boat. He likes the shoal draft as well.

If I remember correctly (always some doubt), there was a Fenwick Williams catboat at Mystic Seaport a couple of years back that had been about 90% restored. I think the owner worked at the Shipyard there and was trying to sell the boat. I'd guess her to have been about 18 or 19'. She was a beauty. Tons of room in the cockpit, nice cabin, sweet lines and enough freeboard to keep you dry in a chop or a blow.

[Ben Fuller]

That may have been my 18' catboat Goblin which overwintered at the shipyard sometimes in the late 80's. I had a traditional rig on her, about 300' which meant a reef around 10 knots ( but I also rarely used my little OB) I could go to a triple reef snug but handy; worse weather I got caught in was a full gale downwind. Seas not big but rolling enough that I just dropped the sail, left it loose in the lazy jacks trimmed in the main and ran at 3-4 knots in excellent control, able to sail 20 degrees either side of downwind.

I solved the weather helm problem with a rachet block on a strop on the tiller and a 2 x 1 tackle that could be shifted from side to side. If needed I could go to 3 x 1. Had a long tail so I could single hand the boat sitting on the stem (smooth water stunt.) Make a virtue of a vice

[Chris Coose]

I've had an 18'9" Ron Carter cat for 26 years. I've had plenty of chances to trade up and just could never bring myself to it.
She does have plenty of weather helm and reefing her is a common chore. The referrences made here are good. Do get to the Catboat association site and buy a couple of books.
She is a fine light air sailor but I like her most for her short cruising. You can tuck her into places that few others can go and I've never been too scared in a blow out off shore a ways. They ride most waves real nice. In a conjested harbor they may get the wind knocked out of them by wakes.
A catboat on a reach is about the prettiest thing on top of the water

[HizzenanHern]

My first sailboat was a 14' catboat someboey built in their back yard, cedar over oak. It must have been built in WWII, because the builder knew what he was about (beautiful, true catboat lines)but used iron screws. That was the death of the boat, discovered when the cosmetic fiberglass skin somebody attached came off.

It had a section of a much larger boat's boom for a mast--very thick and stubby. The gaff was made of the trunk of some very small tree -- nicely stripped and varnished, but with all the branch bumps still protruding. The boom, I swear, was a common 2" dowel, and hung three feet aft of the hull. As near as I can figure, there was 156 square feet of sail.

These things I learned about that boat teaching myself to sail:

--It was bloody fast on a reach or a run.

--In light air it would tack crisply through 190 degrees.

--In heavy air if I was too lazy or too scared to reef, it wanted to bury its nose.

--There was so much weather helm in a blow I carved a tiller out of a piece of 2x6 oakand put reinforcing strakes on the rudder. This might have been a wee bit of overkill, but I never feared the tiller or rudder failing.

--All hell broke loose when the rudder floated out of its gudgeons while running hard. (After two outings of that happening, I used a bungy cord to provide downforce> )

--If you sail a catboat you will fall in love with every catboat in existence and never completetly get over them. I went from the little catboat to a Chrysler 20 to a Mirage 236 to a Bayfield 29, and still drool over cats when I see them. I concur--a catboar reaching or running is the most lovely boat on the water. (BTW, I'm here under the authority of a certain 1973 Grand Banks "woodie" project boat. . . .)

[Lion]

PugetSound; Thanks for your advice, got The Catboat Book locally and found it useful. The chapter on designing by Fenwick Williams was a delight to read, such wry modesty. A lost art I suspect. He sounds like he was a really nice guy.
The book, together with the other contributions pretty well answered my questions. That is, Catboats sail well within their limitations and do develop weather helm when it pipes up! (I do like the technique of BF to attach a pulley strop to the tiller - sounds neat!)
I start to think I am crazy to even consider the project of taking on a partially built catboat. Then I look at at the transom shot in the book of an 18 footer going like train with a beautifully set sail, little stern wake and the crew looking pretty cool - wow!

[johnw]

Of course, one way of dealing with the weather helm is to add a jib. In the late 19th century, many if not most catboats had jibs. Once booms got excessivly long, a jib was the only way to balance the rig. You might check out WP Stephens' comments in "Traditions and Memories of American Yachting" if your library has a copy. Jibs appeared when catboat racing was at its peak, and largely dissappeared after catboat racing died off.

[Chris Coose]

Lion,
You have made a very astute observation.
Catboat crews have no choise but to be cool.
They know they are aboard what is likely to be the cutest vessel in the harbor (especially if it is of wood).
Cat boat skippers are likely to be good at what they do.
It is unlikely that they are in a race.
There is cockpit room to do about anything you'd like to.
If they are on a cruise, the accomodations may be sparse but but very cozy.
For what you get, the yard bills are low, so the cost per sail trip ratio is manageable.
There is just one rope to manage and not much else to do but be cool.

[Lion]

Maybe I should open a new thread but a dumb question re wieght. Fifty Wooden Boats says 18ft FW Cat has displcement of 3763lbs. OK, I think I know that there is a difference between this number and the actual weight. Would 40% less be reasonable? (looks about that on some other specs where they actually show the difference). Should I duck for cover for diplaying my ignorance?

[rbgarr]

Displacement is the calculated weight of the boat that the designer comes up with. Actual (as built) weight may be different, as you suggest, but I'm not sure why you think it would differ by 40%...unless you are asking for an estimate of how much less a 15' catboat might be than an 18' catboat.

Is that your question?

[Lion]

RBG,
Still with the 18ft FW Cat, but in my ignorance am trying to get a handle on the likely trailable wieght. For example, Iain Oughtreds sweet design Eun Mara lists 'Weight' at 1500lbs and 'Displacement' at 2300lbs. Are we talking here about the difference beteeen empty wieght and (pay)loaded wieght? That is, crew and sustainables. (There are other examples).
If so, what would a reasonable estimate of an 18ft FW Catboat empty weight be? Or have I missed something?

[Thad]

I trailed my 18' FW cat around the block for storage and launching. It is not a job to be taken lightly, as much for the bulk of her as the weight. Over 3000#GW you need trailer brakes and your engine etc needs to handle whatever hills etc you face, but she was a big wide thing back there that I wouldn't be thinking to trail far without a serious truck.

[rbgarr]

I'm not familiar with the Oughtred design you mention. It sounds like he may have calculated the weight of the actual hull and rig, and allowed for 800 lbs. for 'payload' so builders could make judgments about materials costs, trailers and appropriate crew/ballast... but I'm guessing. Does the design seem like the type that would carry, say, four 200lb. persons comfortably?

But even in that case, estimating the weight of a different design based on a proportional formula wouldn't work. (For an extreme example, my rowing shell 'weighs' 40 lbs. but the displacement when I'm aboard is more than five times that.)

You might figure that the catboat displacement differs from it's 'weight' by the same 800 lbs. figured by Oughtred, but do so at your own risk.

Another route to figure trailer weight calculations might be to contact the Landings School of Kennebunk, Maine, where several 18' catboats have been built. They may be able to advise you about hull and rig weights for trailering purposes.

[Chris Coose]

The cats built by the Landing School are 18'8" Ron Carter designs most likely cedar on oak. I wished I could help more because I've got this boat but she is teak and I've never had her weighed but I am interested if you come up with a weight that is anywhere near.
Not sure how active the Catboat association forum is these days but I'd bet you might get what you are looking for there.

[Lion]

Thanks everybody for the contributions and advice. Will ponder and try and come to a rational decision. But then I have never gone ahead on a boat purchase other than on emotion! Will let you know if the heart rules the head.
Lion.

[Chris Coose]

Lion,
I'm surprised that, if this is a matter of the heart, this cat isn't already in your back yard getting undressed.
She might be like that fine date that you once hesitated on and somebody else moved quicker.