Woodworking machinery opinions please

[Barry Smoger]

I have been offered a Robland X31 combination table saw, planer, jointer, mortiser, Belgian made, marketed by Laguna Tools. It seems very substantial and well made. Price now about $5000, I can get it for $1500 very good condition. German motors, no plastic. Anyone out there have any experience with them? It would be for home use, making repairs and parts for my wooden boat. Do not need production speed, which I know would be slower with a combo tool that needs to be changed for each use. Is it a useful tool, or a toy?

[Ian McColgin]

I've a friend who has one in his home shop and loves it as a versitile tool and space saver. At his cabinet shop, he has more space and has all the usual stationary tools. So from that pro - it's worthwhile in a non-production setting.

[Dale Genther]

I played around with one at the Woodworkers Show in Ft. Washington a few years ago. It was a very well built piece of machinery. It appeared to have almost all of the capabilities (except for a bandsaw) you would need as far as stationary power tools are concerned. $1500 sounds like a good deal. If you don't buy it, let me know as I may be interested. BTW I stopped by your boat this past weekend to see if you were there and it wasn't there anymore. Did you move it into a slip for the winter or is it hauled out?

[Dave Fleming]

Be jaysus Laddy Buck, don't just sit there get off your arse and grab the thing before some one else does.
Robland very nice piece of multipurpose machinery one of several brands of similar content made in Europe. Super deal if it has the horizontal motiser attachment.
A GREAT deal even with out. Ya folla?

PS: it does NOT have to be changed for all functions. ie: jointing to sawing requires nothing more than moving the fence.

[ 12-17-2002, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[john welsford]

I've a neighbor with one, his is the full house job with the morticer as well as the other bits. I went over a while ago and taught him how to set up the planer blades and can confirm that it is no toy, but a really nice piece of equipment. Get over there and give the man his money before he changes his mind.
John W

Originally posted by Barry Smoger:
I have been offered a Robland X31 combination table saw, planer, jointer, mortiser, Belgian made, marketed by Laguna Tools. It seems very substantial and well made. Price now about $5000, I can get it for $1500 very good condition. German motors, no plastic. Anyone out there have any experience with them? It would be for home use, making repairs and parts for my wooden boat. Do not need production speed, which I know would be slower with a combo tool that needs to be changed for each use. Is it a useful tool, or a toy?

[tjdono]

I second the affirmations. A well made and powerful tool(s). My boss and I use one constantly in the homebuilding trade. It enables us to save overhead on shop space by renting less floor area without compromising quality of work. You will want to build some custom rollaway outfeed tables as the table area on it is less than par, but that is the only detrimental comment I can come up with. Nice find!

Tim

[ken mcclure]

If money were not an issue, I'd be out buying individual high-quality tools to do individual jobs. Table saw, planer, etc.

The X-31 and tools like it are designed to take advantage of space and power by grouping functions into a neat package.

For $1500, you can't go wrong (assuming the machine's not broken) since you could easily pay that for a decent table saw alone!

[WFK]

I suppose from the money standpoint, you should do it. And I also suppose that if you're tight on space, this would be the way to go, but speaking from experience, I really don't care for muli-purpose machinery. There are plenty of times when you have both tools, say, a table saw as well as a jointer or planer set up to do work and the last thing you want to do is have to re-set your adjustments.
It's just not the way to go,and I think in the long run you'd be happier to have the separate tools. IMHO
Bill

[Dave Fleming]

WFK, no argument that there are some times when a particular situation requires one to back track in the wood machining process but of all the multi-purpose machines I have actually seen and worked abit on, the Robland is one of the best in that regard the Felder is also quite good but, comes in at about 2 1/2 times the price!
We are not talking a Shopsmith here. The Robland has 3 separate stout German made 5 HP motors, and several functions don't require complete breakdown of a current setting. Can't say that about the dinky, IMOOP, Shopsmith. And yes I have used a Shopsmith for abit of time too. For $1500.00 USD, that Robland is a good deal, or so says I.

[rodcross]

Barry,

You've already spent too much time wondering about it. Get over there! Now!

Move it carefully, however. Take your time and study that machine before you start doing much.

Like any other machine of its caliber, it can still gobble you up and spit you out.

[capt jake]

Like Dave said, "BUY IT!" smile.gif Heck, you can spend that much on a table saw (or other tools) alone!

[Nicholas Carey]

I've looked at the Robland machines at the woodworking^m tool porn shows. The Robland machines look to be quality machines, especially for a small shop -- laid out right, you only need one fairway to move lumber through.

From my [admittedly limited] playing with it at the woodworking show, crossover from one function to the other typically took [well] under a minute. It does seem like it would impose a certain amount of order on your workflow, though, as other wise you'll spend a lot of time repeating your setup for different tasks. But that's probably a good think in the grand scheme of things. So, you'll probably want to mill stuff as a batch -- crosscut, rip, joint, thickness -- rather than milling a piece at a time.

Here's a website with a good, in-depth review of the Robland X-31 by its owner, as well as field trip to the Robland factory in Belgium where they're made: http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/AlternateMainMenu.html

Evidently getting these machines properly set up and adjusted is a PITA, but necessary to make it hum. The web site above goes into the details of set-up and adjustment of the machine, including a list of tools, equipment and jigs required. Here's the lead paragraph from the section on setup:

Setting up the X-31 can be a nightmare, four tables which must be coplaner, a sliding table that must track parallel to the miter slot in the saw/shaper table while staying coplaner with the saw table, jointer knives that must be set parallel to the cutter head . . . Most of this you'd have to do on individual stand alone machines too, but the X-31 requires that they all work properly TOGETHER on one machine.And here's the Laguna Tools page for the X-31:

http://www.lagunatools.com/X31.htm

Prices start as US $5300 excl. freight, shipping[1] and taxes and go up from there, so unless this machine is completely and utterly trashed, its a good, if not a great, deal.

[1] Why freight and shipping are differentiated is a good question. Your guess is as good as mine.

[ 12-18-2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[redonebyme]

Buy it or give me the number.....please?

[Dave Fleming]

Nicholas, it just so happens that the Gerry Masgai mentioned in Charlie's web site is the fellow whose Robland I have used and Charlie has been a correspondent of mine for a number of years.
Both are straight shooters with nothing to gain from telling how it is about the Machine.

[Rick Tyler]

Barry,

I used to live just a few miles from Laguna Tools, and I agonized over buying a Robland X-31 when I started woodworking about 10 years ago. I made several trips to their shop to see the machine. Comparing the $5,000 or so price to standalone tools, and realizing that my 3-car garage was big enough for all the tools, I couldn't see an advantage to the Robland. I started buying separate tools as I needed them, or could afford them and have been happy.

If I had found an X-31 for $1,500, I would have one now. You should get it as soon as possible.

- Rick Tyler

[JMAC]

There is only one way to decide on whether this is the right tool for you. Go look at all the horizontal workspaces in your shop area. If they are loaded up with half empty paint cans, spray cans,beer cans, rusty tools, broken tools, orange peels, banana peels, piles of screws and nails and nuts and washers and wood scraps and crap upon crap upon crap....(I'm not like this, but I've seen it more than once)...then this is NOT the tool for you. If your a workmanlike bloke who has a place for everything and all that, buy it!

[Bob Cleek]

Although the combined horizontal surface area of a comparable variety of conventional stationary tools would allow your wife to pile a greater volume of crap, on balance, the tool you're considering is a great deal! Since you are going to have to move the crap off it every time you use it, less surface means less cleaning off to do, no?

[Barry Smoger]

Thanks for all of your comments and opinions. Seems like too good an opportunity to let pass, so I'll go ahead with the deal. I knew that if anyone could give me the right info, it would be this group. Merry X-mas, Happy New Year !!!

[Jim Fitz]

What a coincidence! This month's issue of Fine Woodworking (#161, Feb 2003) that just showed up on my desk has a review of comnimation machines. They didn't like the Robland very much, for what it's worth.

[ROWE BOATS]

I just bought a 2 year old x31 for $3,000. and feel that it was a really good deal. The quality of the machine is very good. I'm using it to replace a Powermatic 66 table saw, Powermatic 3hp shaper, and 16inch Fay Egan joiner. There are some pros and cons. The fence isn't as good as the Beisemeyer fence on my Powermatic, and the blade tilts right which I don't like. It's difficult to mount a dado head. However, the sliding table is really nice. I actually like the shaper better than the Powermatic since you can also use the sliding table with it. The joiner and the planer work well, and the changeover time is quick. The mortiser really works well. Oh yeah, one thing that really is a pain is making mouldings on the shaper with a wide plank and then ripping off with the table saw. You can't set both tools up at once. The really big advantage is the space saved. Having one alley for one machine saves many square feet of shop space. I paid twice what you're payin, and I wouldn't hesitate doing it again.

[Dave Fleming]

I picked up a copy of that FWW #161 with the ***critique*** of several European multi-machines.

No wonder I stopped getting FWW as a subscription!

It, the "Tool Test" reminds me of one they, FWW, did a couple of years ago with router bits. :rolleyes:

That was worse than this bunch of nothing.
The router bit article panned one bit manufacturer so badly that the owner offered to ANYONE a free bit to check out the quality. He made the offer in the news group rec.woodworking and many of us took advantage of the offer.
Bit I got was finest kind and IRRC, FWW did a retest and changed their less than objective opinion on JESADA router bits accordingly.
I still say based upon my little woodworking knowledge and experience, that the Robland is one nice machine and not to be sneezed at. And the, again IMOOP,Knapp is top of the line.
Only woodworking machine made today that I know of where the Cast Iron table top is planed!
For those that might not know what that means is this:
The table after casting and normalizing or 'true seasoning', is placed on the bed of a big metalworking machine called....a planer, ayup 'tis true.
This machine has usually one cutter and it is stationary in a big framework that is suspended over the travelling bed of the machine.
The bed moves in two directions, forward/reverse and left to right. These movements are adjustable and so is the depth of cut. The CI piece is feed into the cutter and a long cut is made the length of the CI top. The top is shifted incrementaly left to right and the process continues for the entire width of the CI top.
Advantages over Blanchard Grinding? The top is not subjected to over heating from operators who try to hog off too much material at each setting of the Blachard head thereby creating the chance for heat warpage of the CI top. Oh, the Blanchard has cooling but with the pressure excerted on the top and the speed of the rotating grinding head it is not too difficult to see where the stresses can build up. The planed top now looks like it has ridges running front to back and the high ridges act like releases for suction that can happen with working with wet woods or sheet goods. Ever run a piece of sheet goods across your saw table a find that it seems to 'stick'a bit? That is the suction built up from the flat ground table. In days gone bye all fine woodworking machinery was done this way.
So in my book any outfit who takes the time to plane the CI table top can't be doing too much on the downside.
As I perhaps said earlier in this discussion, it does take a big change in mindset of how you work to understand the plus's of a multi-machine but for the majority of folks here and woodworking in general it again, IMOOP, is good practice and develops a discipline towards what you are doing and how to do it.
Besides being a damn fine piece of machinery either the Robland or the Felder or the Knapp.
Or so says I.