Poms, Kiwis & JohnB in particular: do you know this boat?

[Chris.]

Possibly only an NZer can help on this one. I have been offered a(nother) boat. It is, to say the least, very unusual. I am told it is of NZ origin, so i am asking you guys to help. However, as many of the early 20th century yachts in Aust and NZ were based on English designs, some of you in UK may be able to help also.
Originally offered to me as an international 8 metre class, from first glimpse it was clearly no such thing. First a few photos of low quality - i am no photographer.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p93729d74e2639c07b8b3a14b58825752/fa153898.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p665b812ef6e926793ad1b981efee37ac/fa153760.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p2bed780711cf62986cdde9f6bbcefad1/fa153741.jpg

What can I tell you?
It is around 45' LOA and about 8' beam.
Presented to me as built in the 1930s in NZ and brought to Australia post war.
It has a very unusual and distinctive spoon bow.
Though the current imbecile owner has splashed a LOT of acrylic housepaint around in the interior, a little scraping reveals what i am sure is kauri planking.
Interior of deckhouse is unpainted and looks a lot like kauri.
Planks are VERY long, few butt blocks visible, some planks appear to be full length.
The hull is VERY shallow. Not at all 8 metre like.
Unfortunately (and you may be able to see this from the photos) the hull and deck have been sheathed by a troop of chimpanzees with access to chopped strand mat and polyester resin. The chimps may also have been blind. It is a horrible job.
Internally, the structure looks sound; bit of rot in some deckbeams only.
The original laid deck is visible from below.
Currently marconi rigged, with a very tall wooden mast.
Tiller has been replaced by wheel steering.
A doghouse has been added to the aft end of the deckhouse, making the cockpit suitable for legless dwarves.
Now, the really interesting bit (to me) is that it has a skeg rudder and fin keel. On the keel is the lead ballast in a very rudimentary bulb. This I found really interesting, as a yacht of this vintage doesn't normally have such a configuration.
I went home and had a look thru my boat porn and came up with this photo from CB of Feb 2003. It is the Logan design Sunbeam of the very late 19th century.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid97/p6feff4ee6c7fadd73e576c464638cc53/fa152cc2.jpg

Until i can capture a frame from a VHS video of the boat, i can't show you a comparison of it to this picture. But it looks a lot like this boat in the picture above.
Is it a Logan? Is it even a Kiwi design? Stuffed if I know, but would welcome any input from across the Tasman or from the UK.
Cheers,
CM

[ 01-04-2004, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Chris. ]

[Aramas]

I don't know the NZ specifics, but she looks suspiciously like an English YRA 2.5 Rater (26' lwl - just under 8m smile.gif )of the 1890's. The Logan boat looks like a 1 Rater (20' lwl and usually more dinghy like in hull form) - do you have any details on lwl?

One would assume that AU and NZ yacht clubs embraced the English rules. Fin keels and bulbs
pretty much died out by the turn of the century until they were 'invented' again in the 50's and 80's (with a few notable exceptions like Uffa Fox's Flying Fifteen). Ordinary carvel seems a bit of a departure from usual sheepsh...um kiwi practice though smile.gif

A quick google turned up one 2.5 rater sailing in the Auckland Anniversary Regatta last year, so there's at least one over there smile.gif

[ 01-04-2004, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[Chris.]

An LWL of 26' would be pretty close with those big overhangs, so it could be a UK design.... i got a bit hung up on the Kiwi origin bit without considering it could have just been built there.
And you are right, Aust and NZ picked up classes from all over the planet, with many originating from the motherland. I would be very interested to track down what class it is, as it may make worth restoring.
Carvel is a bit different from the multi-layer diagonal work that Logans did with their boats, but other builders took advantage of the very long lengths of kauri that were available at that time.
The Logan boat in the b&w photo is indeed smaller, at about 30' LOA, and did have roots in planing dinghies according to the CB article.
I'll do a bit of web-trawling and see what i can turn up on 2.5 raters.
Cheers,

[Dave Hadfield]

Looks very fast and probably wet. What a head-turner she would be.

Certainly worth restoring though, of course, it's a large project.

That's a very horrible blue. Do colours come worse than that?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, I should think she might be a "rater" built under the Length and Sail Area Rule, perhaps in the 1890's. If so, her survival is remarkable.

[Chris.]

Thanks Arams and Andrew,
any suggested websites where I could do some research on 2.5 raters? I have done some googling and turned up next to nothing.
CM

[Aramas]

Apart from the section in Dixon Kemp's book, there's probably not a lot around. The YRA rating rule was just a rule based on lwl and sail area, so anything that was in the range between the ratings (0.5, 1, 2.5, 5) was rated at the next rating up. You'll probably find a fair bit on 'half raters', but 1 and 2.5 raters seem a little hard to find info on though. There's also the Thames A, B and C raters, but they're smaller. Trying to find info on the YRA (not the RYA) might be one approach. I came across a site somewhere (seaspray archives) that had a little section about 1 raters in NZ, and I gather from that that all the NZ designers and builders had to go on was Dixon Kemp's book smile.gif

Have you had a good crawl around to see if there's any numbers or builder's details in her? Is it a registered vessel? Any construction peculiarities that might narrow it down to a yard or nationality?

It might even be a 5 rater, but I'm not sure what the maximum lwl was for them. The 2 examples in DK's book are 47' LOA, 32' LWL and 48' LOA 34'5" LWL. The 2.5 raters seem to be between 35' and 40' LOA.

[ 01-06-2004, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

[Chris.]

Aramas,
I too looked at DKs book and was similarly diappointed. I am going back for another look tomorrow and will get measurements instead of estimates of length and beam.
Last time I went I had the wrong size screwdriver (small and sharp for poking) to remove the flooring and could not get a good look at all the area along the keel - this time i will be prepared.
Thanks for your continuimg interest and input.
CM

[John B]

Chris, I've just got in from 3 weeks away sailing.
She doesn't look like any kiwi boat I know of but I know people who will .I'll contact them next week when I'm at work. What is quite exciting to me is that I agree that she is of a size and the appearance of Sunbeam.The fin keel almost confirms that. I understand that Sunbeam was shipped straight to Aus after sea trials here so that would put her circa 1900 or so ( without going to a book to check).
If she is one of the Logan or Bailey boats, she will be 2 or 3 skin Kauri constuction, copper fastened with rivets. she will have sheer clamp,a couple of stringers, a floor shelf and some grown floors. No ribs.A couple of frames in the way of the partners and samson post.
If she is Sunbeam then she is of quite important significance.
And Chris, there are plenty of boats that age sailing well,in maintained rather than restored condition here in NZ.

I'll come back to you.

[Chris.]

Hi John, welcome back. Trust the sailing was good.
Since I posted this I got a PM from a guy who co-authored a book on the Logans. (If he reads this apologise but i have deleted the message and forgotten his name). He was adamant that Sunbeam had been scrapped sometime after she arrived in Sydney.
Also, i have tracked down the next but last owner and he tells me that he was told by someone else that this boat used to be an 8m, but at some stage an owner lopped off the full keel and attached rudder and substituted the current fin and spade rudder. To me, this sounds like a job of enormous structural difficulty and of such complexity that i can't believe that it would be worth undertaking. Also, for reasons i won't go into hear, i find his credibility somewaht suspect.
Anyway, the boat is copper rivet fastened, and does only have frames at the mast partners and, i think, right forward. There are also some steel hanging knees in way of the partners. There are also some steel floors that are in an advanced state of decay. The inner layer of planking is longitudinal, but because of the fibreglass sheathing i cannot tell how the exterior planking runs.
I have been lent an amateur (very) video of the boat on the slip in 1996. I do not have the computer equipment to capture frames direct from a video so i can only offer a couiple of digital snaps from a TV screen.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pa6201a8ac3b8773f1df988c3926585cc/f9ec13d9.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p470633bd03ddfda0bf7491c3e561dbf3/f9ec13de.jpg

It appears to me that the keel on this boat is somewhat longer than that of Sunbeam, just judging from that single photo that i have. On the other hand, it also does not look as if keel transplant surgery has been performed either.
John, all input on this boat is welcome.
Cheers,

[John B]

Hi Chris,If you've heard from Robin or Harold then that is that( where Sunbeam is concerned) . They are the people I would have spoken to.Did they offer some ideas on which boat it could be?

[Chris.]

John,
It was one of those two guys that contacted me, and they had no suggestions on which yacht it could be (if it is indeed of NZ origin).
I guess they would know if Sunbeam was scrapped or not. Sometimes though, boats that are 'scrapped' have anything easily removable (like lead keels) removed and the hull just left in a corner of a yard to get rid of later. And in the meantime, someone else comes along and decides that they can get this cheap or free boat afloat again, and a scrapped boat lives on. I know of several instances where this has happened.
I will keep doing some local sleuthing to see if anyone at the RSYS can remember her - she is a mighty unusual boat and i am quite attracted to the idea of restoring her. At the moment, she is an almost free boat. I figure that once all the glass is off and if what is revealed shows she is not worth the effort, then the mast, wheel steering (almost new), and lead would almost cover all costs....
I'll keep you informed if anything about her origin turns up.
Cheers,