Got a small boat that sails, rows, motors? -Dreamer

[Scott E. Davis]

I don't know much about sailing boats and such, but would like to someday build an approximately 16' boat that would do it all, and be fairly light. It probably is not possible to do them all well, but being from Wisconsin, all I know is canoes and kayaks, so I just thought I'd ask. Thanks - Scott

[rbgarr]

Herreshoff Amphi-Craft! They even had their own trailer design.

[Ian McColgin]

If you're willing to go a tad larger - definatly a trailor boat, not a car topper - you'd be hard pressed to find a more lovely or seaworthy multipurpose boat than the Chamberlain gunning dory shown in Gardner's books and I think findable somewhere in a pix on this forum - not my Leeward but another person's very nice job.

You'll find soon that there's really no reason to go to the trouble and expense of the motor - sail and oar are fine. But should you really want to, a clamp on bracket gunnel to gunnel just a bit ahead of the last frame station and sticking out such that the motor is mounted to starboard would do.

The shape will not handle high speed - it makes a huge hole in the water as you get up around 6 kt - so you can do nicely with a light, low power motor in the 2hp - 5hp range. That's why I don't hold with the motor well Gardner drew.

G'luck

[Steve Lansdowne]

You're talking about Steve Redmond's Whisp, which will take an electric trolling motor. His web site is now up and running and plans for this 15 1/2 footer ultralight sharpie skiff are again available. Try sredmond.com.

[ 05-30-2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Steve Lansdowne ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

Scott,

For an all-purpose boat, have a look at the 14' semi-dory in John Gardner's Building Classic Small Craft, Vol 1, Chapter 8. I imagine it is about the best power boat you'll find for rowing and sailing.

This same book also has the Chamberlain Gunning Dory that Ian mentioned. What Ian forgot to mention is that Gardner's plans include detail for a small motor well, if you're so inclined.

I think the gunning dory is basically a rowboat first, a sailboat second, and a power boat last. The semi-dory's strengths probably run in the reverse order. It probably has enough bearing aft to plane, but not enough transom dragging to unduly inhibit rowing or sailing, and only a tiny bit of rocker.

You can also find both of these plans in Gardner's The Dory Book.

Wayne

[ 05-29-2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Jeffers ]

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Have a look at the Green Island 15 at:

www.headlandboats.com (http://www.headlandboats.com)

Here I am not even done with my first boat and I am looking at my next one. Believe me I have looked at a ton and this one really stands out. Especially attractive sheer line and that boom is way up there, all the better to make the cockpit more comfy. You do need to go to HD though to get a tape with imperial and metric as the plans are in metric. There are a number of quite helpful pics at:

www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/index.htm (http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com)

Another to at least look at is the Goat Island Skiff found at:

www.storerboatplans.bigstep.com (http://www.storerboatplans.bigstep.com)

Not as attractive to my eye but perhaps an easier build. Hope that helps.

[ 05-29-2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[ishmael]

As has been suggested by others, rank each use: rowing, sailing, motoring. All boats are a compromise, some more so than others. For instance I agree with Wayne's ranking of Ian's suggestion, the gunning dory. Great rowboat, reasonable sailor, and if you want a motor it will go with low power, at hull speed. And by reasonable sailor I mean that it will handle quite nicely under sail, just not with the same power or sail carrying capacity of a boat with more bearing aft.

A boat that will do all three of these things reasonably well isn't going to be really good at any of them. Not to say it might not be a good boat, just that it will be a particular compromise.

B and B's stitch and glue open boats in the fifteen foot to nineteen foot range would be worth a look.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/

[ 05-29-2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Chipito]

I had a Bolger Gypsy for a few years and amazingly enuf, It did all those things very well. Maybe the best overall boat under 16 feet I've ever seen, at least as far as function goes.

[daddles]

Originally posted by ishmael:
As has been suggested by others, rank each use: rowing, sailing, motoring. Sound advice that. I'm on a similar search though I need to squeeze a family into the thing - the two front runners being Iain Oughtred designs, the Fulmar and the Caledonia Yawl. Iain O himself states that the Fulmar is too wide for comfortable rowing. I've seen on the CY forum where one owner regularly rows his CY out from the marina ... but, the Fulmar is 16', the CY is 19'. Also very different boats in other ways.

The rowing seems to be the killer. In my novice's eyes, the wider boats tend to offer greater carrying capacity and stability but at reduced comfort for rowing, unless you've got two people working side by side. So, is the rowing to get yourself out your own way or do you want to row some distance.
The motor: you can clamp an outboard on the back end of anything but then you need to ask yourself if the motor is just auxiallary power for when the wind lets you down or whether you want to do some serious motoring. Motor location is important too. I like the inboard well on the CY. Selway-Fisher's Highlander has a very neat motor installation too (and the pictures on their site show a humungous donk where we're usually talking about small motors).
Sail. Is this what it's all about or do all you care about is whether it's going to sail acceptably. Then there's the rig. I've got a mate who's a closet hoon (term used in its real sense, not Shane's) and wants sails, more sails, the greater the number of different shaped bits of sail cloth to mess with the better. He's sick of course.

And my research suggests that once you've nailed that lot down, you've limited your search to about a gazillion designs. The easiest way is to fall in love with a design, even if it's the wrong one.

Cheers
Richard
who's glad he's now building a boat and doesn't have to do this searching stuff for real until it's nearly finished.

[Tom Lathrop]

Scott,,

You need to say just how fast you want the "motoring " part of the equation to be. If you are happy with displacement speed, then there are lots of options, several of which have been mentioned. If you want a boat that will plane under low power and still sail and row well, then you are very restricted in choices. By far the best in this category that I know of is B&B's 15 ft Bay River Skiff.

Look on the website given above and find "Loon" (photos and articles), built by me in 1994 and still traveling well all around North America. Nearest boat to a perfect skiff that I know of. Super simple rig, will plane under sail or 6 to 8 hp engine and rows pretty well although this is its weakest point.

[DavesFlatsBoat]

How about the Weekend Skiff - the book is easy to find the plans are more than complete and the boat is light. There are three versions, pick the best one for your needs

[Keith Wilson]

I'd heartily second the recommendation for Phil Bolger's Gypsy. It was my first boatbuilding project. Easy to build, fun to sail, excellent to row (as long as you add a small skeg), and just fine with a small motor. Not only that, it's quite pretty, particularly for a taped-seam boat. Here's the link to Dynamite Payson's web site. (http://www.instantboats.com/gypsy.htm)

http://www.instantboats.com/images/gypsyprof.gif
http://www.instantboats.com/images/gypsysail2.jpg

[ 05-30-2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[ishmael]

Gypsy looks like an interesting boat, especially for rowing and sailing. Good complimentary compromises re those two. And much lighter than the 15 footer by B and B. Not quite as much of a boat as far as having it out in a bit of weather under sail I'd suspect, though I've rowed my Whisp (similar under oars I suspect) in fairly rough weather and had a great time. With just me aboard it rode like a feather with nary more than an occasional spit of water coming aboard.

This is a good thread. I think you're getting a good primer of how the various pieces of a boat's shape, construction and intention work to make the boat what it is. Good thread.

[Keith Wilson]

Gypsy is better in a blow than one might suspect, possibly because she's a tad under-rigged for light air. The mast is quite flexible at the top and bends some to spill puffs. I've had her out on Minnesota lakes in a good 25 mph wind (short steep chop, not big waves) - one gets surprisingly wet from spray, but it's great fun and she goes like the proverbial scalded cat. She is a very small and light boat though, smaller than her length suggests - certainly not safe on bigger water in bad weather.

[ishmael]

She looks like she'd go in a bit of a blow. Start the sheets and hang on. smile.gif

I never got comfortable with my Whisp in those conditions. I built her ultra-light and the boat has a lot of sail, IMO, and when the wind blew the flexing of that 3/16 inch ply underfoot gave a bit of the willeys. Probably within design parameters, but when we had a blow on Mullett Lake in Michigan I took out my glass Sailfish. No swamping to worry about.

[Keith Wilson]

I built my Gypsy out of 1/4 ACX fir and (gasp!) polyester resin - didn't know any better at the time, but that was 13 years ago and she's still going strong. I used a little heavier glass than I probably should have, so the whole thing weighed 150 pounds or so. Gypsy's unusual construction - filleted and taped bulkheads rather than frames (or, perhaps, very deep frames?) - anyway, it's extremely strong and rigid, although it takes up a lot of space inside the boat. Gee, now I'm regretting selling her - maybe I should build another one.

[ishmael]

Whisp is a beautiful flat bottom skiff in my opinion, but I was being generous at 3/16. I can't remember the metric equivilent, but it was halfway between 1/8 and 3/16. And you're right a completely different construction. Whisp has solid framing, and light at that. Built a little heavier I'm sure it would be a blast off the wind.

I still have the boat, and have thought about putting a bulkhead forward and aft, with decks below the gunnel. A little heavier, but it would be a stiffer more confidence producing construction.

If Steve Redmond reads this I'd love to hear his thoughts. I may just be a coward. ;) As I said, I had the boat out in fairly rough weather under oars without flinching.

[Scott E. Davis]

Thanks to all for the quick and informative suggested possibilities! It seems there is quite a bit for me to learn, to say the least. There were so many good designs despite the fact that (as I now see) I was very vague. But, you all have made me think it through a little more, and I have decided a few things....
I would like a "dry sailer" (excuse my lack of terms) - don't want to be constanly wet. I have only sailed twice, so I need something easy.

I sailed across from Vancouver Is. to the mainland 18 miles. I was steering to a compass heading and did not have to change the sails. The huge waves were washing over the 30 foot boat. The captain stuck his head out of the below deck area and says "This boat will self-right so if it flips, just hold on" Scared me. I don't want to get into these heavy seas at my level.

I am thinking of the great lakes. I want it seaworthy, and the motor (+ - 10hp) is useful for getting off the lake quickly, if a storm brews up. The great lakes can be very tough also.

I am a woodworker and the lapstrake boats, with their curves and "abreviated wineglass transoms" appeal to me. I have built a stripper kayak, but I know this would be quite a bit more tricky.

I would like to be able to row it as a slight backup and to get it closer to my destination when I drop the sails.

[Alan D. Hyde]

When the Spanish refer to something or someone as a "duck," they are metaphorically suggesting that, like a duck which can swim, walk, and fly (none of them well), the person or thing is multifunctional, but unimpressive in each of its functions.

This is an inherent problem with what you seek, because the requisite qualities for the various functions differ, sometimes in mutually exclusive ways.

The best compromise, as the Vikings found, may be a lapstrake vessel. I'm not convinced there's any giant improvement since, for what you seek.

Alan

[AngWood]

Check out Steve Redmond's Bluegill: http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

http://www.sredmond.com/boat_images/BluegillLake_sm.jpg

[Keith Wilson]

Oh, that's different - You can easily get a reasonably seaworthy boat for sail and motor, but it will be an awful big lump to row. The limits are the power output of one human being and the size of the waves - If you can row it with any pleasure, it really won't be big enough to sail dry and be safe in moderately bad weather on the Great Lakes. A boat has to be pretty light and narrow to row easily, and that works against seaworthiness, at least with halfway normal designs (and I assume you aren't looking for something like an ocean-crossing rowboat). OTOH, a surprisingly large boat can be moved slowly under oars in reasonably calm weather, and I've read that a yuloh, a Chinese-style sculling oar, is even better.

How about another Phil Bolger design, the 20' Chebacco Boat - They can be built either sheet-plywood or ply lapstrake, and they're one of the nicest daysailers I know of. The outboard motor is better-integrated than almost all other sailboats, and she'd move OK, if slowly, under oars.

http://www.chebacco.com/articles/chebacco2.1/article_files/image002.gif

[ 05-30-2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[ishmael]

And if you don't want a cabin boat I'd have a serious look at this.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm

Or the larger one at twenty feet.

If I didn't currently own a Drascombe Lugger I
would.

But maybe you want something more traditional in looks or construction?

A really fun boat for traditional lap construction (could probably be adapted to glued lap) would be Nelson Zimmer's shrunk Mackinaw boat, available from WB. Open yet very able, beefy little boat, and it would be in keeping with the Great Lakes.

Oh but you want to be able to zip with a motor. Scratch the Mackinaw boat.

Another way to look at it though is that the Mackinaw boat would be able to handle typical Great Lakes summer weather, if you could. You never build heavy weather skills if you don't get caught out occasionally. ;)

So many boats, so little time. smile.gif

[ 05-30-2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]