Various Gaff Rigs

[Tom Irvine]

OK, I've decided to build Welsford's "Penguin" and even though I'm far from consrtucting masts, I'm wondering about various sail configurations.

I've already decided I want some kind of Gaff rig and there seems to be about three choices:
- Gaff Sloop
- Gaff Cutter
- Gaff Yawl

Some time ago, Venchka had me all but talked into the Yawl, but during a recent kayak trip to the Georgian bay, I struck up a conversation with a guy who'd restored a 1920 44' double ended Gaff Ketch (parted the water like a big canoe - no wake). He suggested a Gaff Cutter for the Penguin. I like cutters.

Aside from looks (and they are important) which of the three rigs will perform the best? Will any of them offer improved performance into the wind that would normally be sacrificed with a gaff sail?

Tom

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Iain Oughtred is on record in a couple of places as saying that a yawl rig on a boat under 16 feet is "a waste". Too much complication for essentially little gain in performance. A yawl does LOOK better though...

[Thad]

There are all kinds of performance, including the ability to sit head to wind -- one of the nice yawl performances.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Captain Pre-Capsize:
Iain Oughtred is on record in a couple of places as saying that a yawl rig on a boat under 16 feet is "a waste". Too much complication for essentially little gain in performance. A yawl does LOOK better though...A PENGUIN is way over 16'.

John Welsford will have the best answer and he's very accessible.

Gaff cutters are lovely as well. Same question as the "yawls under 16'": Will a gaff cutter produce optimum performance on this particular boat?

Besides the heaving to benefits, much is made of the jib and mizzen balance of the gaff yawl rig.

If it works for you, do it!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Swaddo]

Originally posted by Tom Irvine:
He suggested a Gaff Cutter for the Penguin. I like cutters.
I've been in touch with Lohn at JW Boat designs about rigging her as a gaff cutter and they are more than happy to do it.

I'd be interested in hearing about performance issues myself. My father keeps telling me how gaffers cannot sail close to the wind (well relative to his Bermuda rig Endeavour 30 that is)

John, from JW Designs, sent me this penguin pr0n. I'm sure thay wouldnt mind me posting it. This is Greg Pullen's Penguin out on the river in Hobart

http://www.swadling.local/boats/Little_Wing_out_sailing_6.jpg

[edited to add pic details]

[ 08-29-2004, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Swaddo ]

[Chris Stewart]

Tom, I think Venchka's on the right track. Ask the designer himself. If you haven't yet joined the John Welsford Builders Group on Yahoo! you really should. John monitors the group and answers questions like yours regularly. There are others on the group building or considering Penguins, and they may provide tips and insight as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jwbuilders/

[Tom Irvine]

Thanks for the good advice. I went ahead and joined the Welsford group and posted my question there. In the meantime, if anyone here knows anything . . .

My personal favorite is the cutter. Yawls always look awkward to me, but if there's a real performance advantage, I know their looks will improve. My own experience does not go beyond the typical Bermuda sloops you always see.

Tom :cool:

[Tom Irvine]

Hey Wayne, you sail a yawl - is the mainsail a gaff? what do you think of its windward performance? smile.gif

[Don Maurer]

Cutter rigs need a deep draft keel to stand up to all that sail area. How do you plan to use the boat? That, more than anything should determine the rig.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Tom Irvine:
Hey Wayne, you sail a yawl - is the mainsail a gaff? what do you think of its windward performance? smile.gif High peaked balanced lug, actually. She goes to weather. I haven't actually measured it against the compass or another boat. I will say that on her maiden voyage the wind was out of the north, we sailed due south from the launch and returned. Good enough?

There are several gaff rig experts around who can speak better than I can. JohnB has posted too many pictures of too many LARGE gaff rigged boats racing in New Zealand for there to be a problem with these boats beating to weather. However, like many things to do with boats, rigs don't always scale down and work on smaller boats. I don't think a cutter rig shows up on Paul Gartside's boats until they have full keels and lots of ballast-EDIT: (Surprise II is the smallest I think) Nope, the 20' Itchen Ferry Cutter is the smallest-with 2,500 pounds of ballast/5,700+ total. That might be more ballast than a completed Penguin all up. His smaller boats are gaff sloops. Talk to John Welsford.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 08-29-2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Meerkat]

Gaff rigs don't point as high as a marconi rig, but they will go to weather well enough. On a reach or a run, they'll beat the marconi for a similar sail area.

I think those other rigs are just budgie perches ;)

[Hwyl]

A mizzen mast (and sail) is useful for:

Hanging an awning on.
A backrest
Flagpole
Antennae

None of which are to be dismissed. It has limited use in forward sailing, except on a reach and broad reach. If you like maneuvering under sail, it can be really useful. I particularly like running under mizzen and spinning onto a mooring, the boat will stop on whatever coinage you want. People will wax eloquent about "jib and jigger" meaning sailing under the jib and mizzen. I've never got it to work and I've tried (I ran four ketches 47' to 65').

As for the gaff thing, I'd consider gunter rig, in a boat that size. Gaff will go to windward and is technically more efficient (just look at the shape of those fathead sailboards). Most people spoil gaff performance by having too many strings--downhauls, lazyjacks, flag halyards, fish tackles--I could go on.

[Tom Irvine]

Big John has spoken. Quoth he:

"Hi Tom, Penguin has been a race winner in the hands of Greg Pullen ( at a Classic boat regatta in Tasmania) and is no slug under the sloop rig, the yawl will not be quite as quick to windward but is a good lazy cruising rig.

"A cutter will work well, dividing the headsail into two smaller ones gives you an easier load to handle when sheeting, and with the jib and main down and the staysail set you have an ideal storm rig."

If I had to decide now, I think I'd pick one of the single mast rigs - I'd like to know more about Cutters. To answer Don's question about usage - I mostly plan to use it to cruise the Great Lakes, but would also like to be able to cruise salt water locations like the Carribean.

Thanks for all your feed back.

Tom

:cool:

[Meerkat]

The Pardeys have a fair amount to say about cutter rigs and the dozen or so different configurations they use (including some sail changes, i.e. a ghoster for light winds) in one of their books, complete with illustrations (in an appendix as I recall - might be "Seraffyn's Mediterranian Adventure" or "Seraffyn's Asian Adventure").

[Tom Irvine]

Hey Meercat,

Thanks for the word on the Pardey's! I'd never heard of them before, but they're kind of doing what I want to do. I like their philosophy of economy. I ordered two of their books from Amazon.

Tom
:cool:

[Meerkat]

Have a look here too Tom: http://landlpardey.com/

They have their very own website. Entertaining and useful both.

[skuthorp]

Thanks Tom, what I like about this place is that just when yuore thinking about a question, someone answers it right on cue!
:D

[Tom Irvine]

The Penguin plans are on their way. JW will also be sending drawings for the cutter rig. Can't wait to begin studying. smile.gif

[brian.cunningham]

Here's a good read, talks alot about aspect ration and the short dutch gaff rigs used on pilot boats.
http://www.kastenmarine.com/gaff_rig.htm

[Ian Wright]

,,,,,, but when all the research is done and calulations made, make it a gaff cutter with a long tops'l.
IanW

[Tom Irvine]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'll do Ian. It's the cutter for me. Not quite sure about the top sail yet, however. This project will probably take me at least three years - I've got a day-job and I first have to build a barn to build and store it in.

I've been thinking about Don's input: "Cutter rigs need a deep draft keel to stand up to all that sail area." And I'm not getting it - how is a cutter carrying more sail? Isn't it really just carrying two smaller sails in place of one biggie?

Tom

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by Tom Irvine:
Not quite sure about the top sail yet, ,,,,,,
I've been thinking about Don's input: "Cutter rigs need a deep draft keel to stand up to all that sail area."
TomGo for the tops'l. It's luff length that gets you to windward. Without a topsail a gaff rigged boat points worse than a similar bermudan boat. With a good yard topsail so that both boats have the same luff measurement there will be very little in it. You just have to accept the extra work. smile.gif
That last quote of Don's is (sorry Don) tosh.
A good hull of any type will carry a good rig of any type. A gaff cutter tends to have it's sail area lower down hence has a lower center of effort so you can chose between the same area with less heel angle or the same heel angle with more drive,,,,,, you choose.
But it's a lot more compicated than that..........
smile.gif

IanW

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Have a look here too Tom: http://landlpardey.com/

They have their very own website. Entertaining and useful both.RECORDS
Smallest boat to have circumnavigated contrary to the prevailing winds around all the great southern capes, only
couple to have circumnavigated both east-about and west about on boats they built them selves, using traditional
means of navigation and having no engine.

W :eek: W

[John B]

I was quite impressed with what I saw of this boat over a couple of weekends. gaff yawl. not a cutter head.
http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003756

[Dave Hadfield]

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/penguindwg2.gif

I notice that on these rigs there is no backstay, just a lot of aft drift on the shrouds. With a cutter rig, I wonder if you'll be able to get away with that, while still avoiding sagging forestays -- after all, there will be 2 of them. You may end up having to have running backstays. (not a real problem, but something to consider).

Also, a cutter rig will locate your mast farther aft. Looks to me like it will then be right in front of the toilet, necessitating an interior re-design. In fact, it'll be on the CB trunk, won't it?

Heretical, I know, but the boat looks a bit tubby to me. And why make those tiny little side decks, which are too small to walk on (when it's rough) but big enough to spoil the sitting inside?

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/penguindwg.gif

Frankly I'd build the yawl, perhaps even switching the gaff main for a standing lug. I sail in Georgian Bay. There are 2 wind patterns: a NW wind that sets in after a cold front passage, then a SW wind 2-3 days later. In the NW flow, you're not going to go upwind much in this boat, against 25kts and the short, steep chop that it creates. You'll have to wait for a fair wind or take the Small Craft Route among the islands. Then, after the change to SW, you'll have a reach or a run. Most of your voyaging on this lake will be reaching or running -- there is no thrashing to windward over long easy swells, just 6-footers that stop you dead when you slam into them.

I wouldn't say a cutter was the best rig for this pattern of wind.

I very much like the shallow draft of this design. Very handy in these waters.

[Tom Irvine]

Uh . . . yeah. About that cutter rig - I don't think it really is - technically - a true cutter rig. I think it's really just a sloop with two head sails - the mast stays where it is, if I'm not mistaken. I did wonder about running backstays - perhaps with the short mast and long boom of the gaff acting as a counter balance you can get away without them?

I've been paddling my kayak around in the Georgian Bay for the last four summers - my favorite is the north end between Killarney (Best Fish and Chips in the universe) and the French River delta - simply beautiful!! I have noticed a wind pattern like the one you describe.

Tom

[Tom Irvine]

Uh . . . yeah. About that cutter rig - I don't think it really is - technically - a true cutter rig. I think it's really just a sloop with two head sails - the mast stays where it is, if I'm not mistaken. I did wonder about running backstays - perhaps with the short mast and long boom of the gaff acting as a counter balance you can get away without them?

I've been paddling my kayak around in the Georgian Bay for the last four summers - my favorite is the north end between Killarney (Best Fish and Chips in the universe) and the French River delta - simply beautiful!! I have noticed a wind pattern like the one you describe.

Tom

[Dave Hadfield]

Yes, that is a beautiful part of the world. Another lovely area is just north of Byng Inlet: Black Bay, Sandy Bay and Henvey River. It doesn't seem to have been discovered, probably because the standard charts do not have those waters sounded for depths.

Here is what happened last night, and it's typical, though certainly the winds are a bit stronger in the fall:

http://www.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/marine/marine_e.html?45143

Marine Forecast issued for Georgian Bay.
Issued: 10.30 AM EDT Saturday 9 October 2004 for the period ending At 10.30 AM Sunday with an outlook for the following 24 hours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synopsis:
At 10.30 AM today..996 MB low northeast of Timmins with trough average pressure 1012 MB extending through North Bay and southwestward through Georgian Bay. North to south ridge average pressure 1020 MB through Manitoba and southward through Iowa.
By 10.30 AM Sunday..1030 MB broad ridge of high pressure centred over Lake Michigan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forecast:
..Gale warning in effect..
Wind southwest 25 to 30 knots increasing and veering to west 30 to gales 40 knots late this morning then diminishing to northwest wind 25 to 30 knots late this afternoon. Wind diminishing to northwest 20 to 25 this evening. Isolated showers otherwise fair. Waves 2 to 3 metres.
Outlook..Moderate northerlies becoming light and variable.

Notice the 2-3 meter waves. Those are nasty and steep here -- 10-footers. Then, in 2 days, it'll be SW again.

[Phil Young]

From the pics above, the yawl looks good, simply because the mast is further forward, probably good in terms of interior space. On the sloop I don't like the roachy main with battens-its not neccesary with a gaff. Roachy mains as far` as i can tell came in with high aspect bermudian rigs, where the top third of the sail got too small to be any use without them. The Yawl looks like it has a hhigher peaked gaff too, which will be better in terms of windward performance. You might find you don't use the mizzen much, but still, my vote is for the yawl.

[Tom Irvine]

Actually, the interior layout of the Penguin favors the mast location of the sloop. The junction of the centercase and the main bulkheads form the foundation for the mast at this place.

As for the yawl rig in the picture, it is as JW would say, an "imposter" - the mainsail of the real yawl rig looks more like the gaff on the sloop version than the one pictured above.

Tom

[Tom Irvine]

Actually, the interior layout of the Penguin favors the mast location of the sloop. The junction of the centercase and the main bulkheads form the foundation for the mast at this place.

As for the yawl rig in the picture, it is, as JW would say, an "imposter" - the mainsail of the real yawl rig looks more like the gaff on the sloop version than the one pictured above.

Tom