Sailing Canoes

[Matt Middleton]

Searching the web (inclufing WBF archives), I've not found much information about sailing canoe designs/plans available to us. I know about the Wee Rob and MacGregor, and Storer's Beth, and I know that W.P. Stephens' book has plenty of lines and offsets that I could use to put one together, but are there any others (detailed plans, preferably)?

Thanks,
Matt Middleton

[Ian McColgin]

Look for Todd Bradshaw's book for the rigs.

Sailing canoist types are a very eccentric mix and match crowd willing to have great experimental fun with boats. No doctrines. Much freedom.

G'luck

[RGM]

Have you seen William Atkin's "Excelsior"? I think it's about 21' long, 5' beam, flat bottom, ketch rig (IIRC). It's setup for camping/cruising. When I first saw the design I immediately thought that it could be a very fun boat, possibly trailerable.

[Matt Middleton]

Ian- I got the same impression, at least about the way canoes were designed by amateurs as describe by Stephens' book. I like the experimentation, so maybe that's why I'm drawn to them.

RGM- no, but I'll be checking it out.

Thanks to both of you!

Anybody else have some suggestions? Any other canoes you've heard of?

Matt

[AngWood]

I think that Atkin has several designs that he called "sailing canoes"--long and skinny sailboats, though not really set up for paddling (big rigs, side decks, etc.). Volume 51 of the MotoRBoaTing Ideal series is a set of 363 study plans, the vast majority of them by the Atkins, and I recall seeing several such boats. If you want the names of the designs, I'll look them up later on (but if you're looking for a true canoe, you wouldn't want one of these).

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you are thinking of a dedicated sailing canoe of the old type as opposed to adding a sail to a general purpose canoe, check out some of these:
http://www.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/dsctfram.htm

[Milli]

Check out the Lost in the Woods Boatworks site http://www.lostinthewoods.ca/ Good info on sailing canoes. The Littl' Pete looks like a great boat, I almost built one but decided on a small pram instead. There is a very good book called "Sail your Canoe" by John Bull which they sell as well.

The ACA Canoe sailing association also has some great info. If you write to them they can supply teh design details for the class association rig and some tips on sailing.

Another source of sailing canoe info is Solway Dory, a British company.

[G. Schollmeier]

Thanks for the link Todd.
Gary :D

[gunnar I am]

Great place to visit with lots of links http://wcha.org

[Steve Lansdowne]

Mystic Seaport has detailed plans for a 14 1/2 foot sailing canoe by Wm Wiser dated 1883, drawn by Ned Costello in 1977. Catalog No. Misc. 20. Reference in 87 Boat Designs p. 20 and also in the back index p. 94. Todd's book is great, too!

[Bruce Taylor]

Definitely stop by the Canoe Sailing Canoe resource, mirrored here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html

On that site you'll find a list of available plans, w/ comments.

And then there's the one I chose, Piccolo:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid17/pa8bf9c4ad05dd8b021e4c6899514020f/fdf729dc.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid24/pd6bd6096427df29a7b55e61c5c50d168/fd9865b3.jpg

[ 11-14-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Steve Paskey]

Hi Matt: If you haven't been there, check out the Yahoo group on sailing canoes:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailing_canoes/

Among the 300-plus members, there's sure to be someone who's familiar with just about any design out there.

[DaBoss]

Hey Matt,

In addition to the above sites that have been referenced, have a look over at
www.Selway-fisher.com (http://www.Selway-fisher.com)

They have several canoe designs and a number of sail plans for canoes. They also have a very interesting IC trainer.

In addition, they have some very nice little double ended canoe yawls, if you want something more sailing than paddling.

Check out the Lillie yawl. There is also a 16 foot lug rigged yawl and a larger 18 foot yawl.

The yawls can be seen in the double ender section of the web site.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Matt Middleton (MattM):
Searching the web (inclufing WBF archives), I've not found much information about sailing canoe designs/plans available to us. I know about the Wee Rob and MacGregor, and Storer's Beth, and I know that W.P. Stephens' book has plenty of lines and offsets that I could use to put one together, but are there any others (detailed plans, preferably)?The 10m² Canoe aka International Canoe (IC). Fairly strict one-design. [One of the] Fastest monohull[s] around.

This is not Henry Rushton's idea of a sailing canoe -- more like Uffa Fox's (on steroids):

http://www.conversedesign.com/IC/images/sugar8.JPG

Here's the pilot's view on a high speed reach:

http://www.conversedesign.com/IC/images/seat2.JPG

More info from the International Canoe Federation at http://www.canoeicf.com/ or its American chapter at http://www.conversedesign.com/IC/canoe.html

Rules available (PDF file) from the ICF at http://www.canoeicf.com/sailing/rules.htm (also from the American Chapter.

The rules include a table of offsets; Lines plans, measurement rules and templates available from the ICF.

[skuthorp]

Thanks for the yahoo link, and WHEEEOOO Nicholas, does that look fun! I used to sail a Cherub and thought that the ants pants!

[Matt Middleton]

Hey all- thanks for all the good info. I showed a bunch of the photos and hull lines to my wife, and she said she wanted one with a sliding seat! :eek:

I'll be looking through all these links for the next few weeks (months?!), possibly trying to decide what to build!

Thanks again!

Matt Middleton

[DaBoss]

There's a 20 foot by 3' full keeled canoe shaped sharpie type racing rocket here that looks like a hoot. And might be high performance for an economical price. Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but if your lady wants the sliding seat sailing canoes, It sounds like you'll be sailing and not paddling. launching this one would not be as easy..............
i design 2 man sharpie keel canoe thing (http://www.iboatworks.com/)

[ 11-18-2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: DaBoss ]

[Matt Middleton]

So how fast is fast, really? What number would you apply to that boat's top speed, just so I have a reference? Could I expect some of the other canoes with similar dimensions to perform similarly, even the old ones?

Thanks,
Matt Middleton

[Bob Fewkes]

What a GREAT thread! I learned to sail on a home-made stringer/muslin/fiberglass canoe with a 45 sqft sail and paddle rudder.
Now refurbishing IC #US102 (sailed it in the 60s), and one of my favorite boats is a Grumman with Gunter and tiller/rudder. . . sails like a displacement boat. Fast is VERY relative. As long as the boat is balanced and efficient, it’s fun. Of course, the IC passes almost anything to windward or close reach (wind >5-8 mph), and that’s FUN, too.

[Bob Fewkes]

Anyway, someplace in my files , I have plans for a hard chine 10 sq m sailing canoe . If interested, I could hunt for them.

[Steve Lansdowne]

The Sept/Oct 2002 issue (#35) of Water Craft magazine has a few articles on sailing canoes.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Matt - Watercraft #35 Sept/Oct 2002 has a bunch of articles about sailing canoes. A couple of them are about building and sailing Missy Mouse:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p0445444bfe00a8fa26fc3fe078afbd5b/fd0782c6.jpg

And ClassicBoat #172 Oct 2002 features Poppy: a Fabian Bush designed Canoe Yawl.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p1a1602910c8b44d192d1684aca584b30/fd078408.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p204cb1054d9151a65e1ca88cd320600f/fd0781c0.jpg

I really like that Poppy.
Steven

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Matt Middleton:
So how fast is fast, really? What number would you apply to that boat's top speed, just so I have a reference? Could I expect some of the other canoes with similar dimensions to perform similarly, even the old ones?Assuming reasonable wind speed (say, more than 8 knots), and assuming that you're good, the IC folk claim to make, off the wind, maybe 17 knots; climbing to windward, maybe 7 knots.

5.18m (17ft) long, 1018mm (40in) beam, 83.5kg (184lb) all-up exclusive of sails and driver and 10m^2 (108ft^2) of sail. There's not a lot of there, there.

As for other, older boats of similar dimensions...

I'd guess that speed ultimately depends heavily on the boat, the rig and the sails. Uffa Foxes' books list sailing canoes as weighing at about ~ 400 pounds displacement -- a far cry from the 140 pounds or so they are now. That means more wetted surface and hence more drag and lower speed.

Rig? A low-tension rig with cotton or dacron sails simply won't going to perform as well as a high tension carbon rig with high tech composite sails (not to mention the full panoply of Harken go-fast gear).

Also, ICs and their ilk have kind of hunky centerboards and the sliding seat -- a little leeboard rig on a conventional canoe isn't going to give the the righting moment that that centerboard and the sliding seat gives you. Consequently, you're not going to get to windward terribly well and you're going to have hard time sailing flat (for some definition of 'flat').

BTW, the British IC class association (http://www.intcanoe.org/) lists the 'ideal crew weight' as 'Approx. 60-85 kg (10-13.5 stone)'. That's 132-187 pounds, so well within normal for those of us who aren't big and burly. By contrast, I think the Finn class (Olympic catboat) figures 6 foot plus and more than 220 pounds as more-or-less optimal.

[Matt Middleton]

Great info! Thanks again to all (esp. Steven, for those great pics!!).

This whole sailing canoe thing has been growing in the back of my mind for a while now. I've been wanting to build a small boat, but had to put it off while the big boat needed attention. So, my Christmas present this year will be getting to start a project.

I initially thought that something like Wee Rob or MacGregor would be the most versatile, but the more I look, the more I like the more dedicated sailing variations. I would like to get something suitable for 1 or 2, as my wife would be with me most of the time.

In reading through all the sites I'd found, along with the ones suggested here, I was thinking that some of the older designs could be approximated with glued lap ply or similar method to get a lighter boat, possibly light enough to cartop.

To adapt an older design to modern methods, and then experiment with rigs (maybe even a sliding seat!) really is in keeping with the spirit that many of the designs were created. Maybe that's part of the attraction to these boats, other than their speed and looks.

So, what do you think? Hare-brained idea or not? Any tips or suggestions?

Matt Middleton

[Bruce Taylor]

Most of the old sailing canoes could certainly be adapted for lap. ply construction. William Clements builds them this way.

http://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/index.html#ione

Here's his version of Rushton's Ione, a two-man boat:

http://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/photos/photo015.jpg

But don't assume that you'll save a lot of weight. In some cases you will (especially if you adapt one of the English-style oak-planked yawls). However, Rushton's canoes were already extremely light (the lightest of all, Sairy Gamp, weighed a bit over ten pounds). White cedar is marvellously airy stuff, and a full set of 1/2" by 1/4" ash frames adds surprisingly little to the weight.

Baker's Piccolo, for example--a plank on frame boat--weighs just a bit more than 50 lbs.

Note, too, that many of the Victorian sailing canoes were ballasted (some quite heavily, with massive centerboards and shifting weights). The most suitable boats for cartopping would be the American, Rushton-style boats (Vesper, Notus, Vagabond and so on).

[ 11-19-2002, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Jeremy Burnett]

Dear Matt,I built the canoe Missy Mouse shown on the cover of Watercraft Mag. This is a Rushton Princess model and works very well.You can get the basic lines and offsets from The Adirondack museum,also from Bill Clements.One of his boats is also shown sailing on the site.Ian Oughtred in Scotland sells plans for the McGregor sailing canoe can be got from Woodenboat.I think Antonio Dias also does one.

[Matt Middleton]

Jeremy: what construction was used there?

Anyone: So how much more or less difficult would it be to build a light cedar lapstrake boat compared to lap ply?

What would be advisable to do first to build some skill in the area?

Matt Middleton

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Matt, my Harry Bryan designed Thistle, 10'decked canoe, is light cedar construction. I think it's even easier than glued-lap ply. The frames are the form, so you can fasten your planks to them as you go, and instead of all that nasty epoxy in each lap you just drive some clench nails. I'll be building a sail rig for the Thistle over the winter - the fin drive is the rudder so I'm all set.

Thistle Album (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291900137)

[Bob Fewkes]

conventional canoe with sail rig will go to windward pretty well if the leeboards are long enough. Reference the immersed area and shape of the new sunfish racing d'board and the Moth d'boards. Also should have a good rudder. . . a paddle or low aspect stern rudder can have a lot of drag:lift.

[Bob Fewkes]

You asked about numbers for sailing canoe speed. The US Sailing handicaps, Portsmouth numbers, (the number of minutes it takes a boat to sail a course sailed by a “yardstick” boat in 100 minutes) show:
Sunfish 99.7
Snipe 94.4
Lightning 87.7
Thistle 83
505 80.2
Int Canoe 79.5

But the International 10 sq m canoe planes. Conventional cruising canoes have numbers in the range of 100 – 120, depending on sail area. Top speeds depend also on length, and somewhat on weight and hull lines.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Don't underestimate the potential speed and ability of normal canoes fit with sail rigs to go to weather. It's all a matter of how much sail area you install and how good you are at handling it. For example - though not as fast as a Ten Square Meter Canoe, this one will easily blow the doors off a Sunfish or Laser, both in light air and in a blow.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p7ca5ee95e34b64cc3f4881293fe10a17/fd06ac23.jpg
(Photo from the 1970 Old Town Canoe Co. Catalog)

[Matt Middleton]

Hi Todd- I bet a lot of this stuff is in your book, right?

Either way, it just got added to my Christmas list! :D

Maybe I should start a new thread about real clinker vs. lap ply.

Matt Middleton

[Jeremy Burnett]

Matt, Missy mouse is lapstrake epoxy glued construction using 5mm ply.The deck is 4mm.I think to build it traditionally using cedar and nails or tacks would require a higher level of skill.

[MiKa]

try www.emubo.com (http://www.emubo.com)
well proven, simple and fun!

[MiKa]

forgot to add the picture

http://www.emubo.com/e/boote/crab/bilder/01.jpg

I hope the designer doesn't mind