Study Plans?

[doorstop]

:confused: I recently ordered a set of "Study Plans" for a Glen L design called Bo Jest. They arrived last week, they cost me $32.50. For my $32.50 I received just about buggar all.... 3 pieces of A3 paper and 1 of A4 with virtually the same information on them as is available from Glen Ls' website. I was hoping for some more detailed info so that I can make some sort of decision what to build. A lot of money is going to be "blown" if I buy the wrong plans and start on a boat that won't be much use in my local conditions. If Glen Ls' building plans are as poor value for money as their poxy excuse for study plans then I'm not too keen on spending any money with them at all....
Just what should I expect/not expect in the way of detail when I order "study plans"? Or am I just being a grump? :confused:

[PugetSound]

Study plans should consist of your standard lines drawings (shear, plan, half-breadth), interior arrangements, exterior arrangements, and a sail plan (if applicable). Each of these can fit on one 8 1/2 x 11 size sheet (an 'A' sheet). The study plans are intended to enable you to evaluate the suitability of the design for your purposes and pretty much assume that you are capable of evaluating such things. They deliberately avoid details for reasons which should be obvious.

[doorstop]

I agree that I can't expect full plans but it doesn't seem very much for my buck! SWMBO near spat the dummy when she realised I had spent over $30 for four photocopies..... she is not too keen at on the whole project when there are apparently crazy costs like this before we even get started!

[Mike Keers]

DS,
I just went to the Glen-L site, and th study plans for Bo Jest are only $10 US....what you paid must include shipping and currency differences because you live down under. The real plans and patterns are only $87.

It's disengenuous to infer that Glen -L overcharged you, when the plans themselves are only a third of what you ended up paying. I've bought many study plans from them for $10 and not felt abused.

You are correct. you can pretty much just get the same information from the website now for free.

Anyway, I just thought I'd point out for others what you paid isn't really Glen-L's fault, the plans are very reasonable for those of us closer.

[AngWood]

Two questions:

What does "spat the dummy" mean?

How much is $32.50 AUS in US dollars?

I haven't seen Glen-L's study plans, but I do agree that sometimes you don't get much when you order study plans. Sometimes they're a great deal. Arch Davis sent me 2footx3foot blueprint poster and a nice color brochure when I ordered the $9 "study package" for one of his boats. I've got the poster on the wall of my office. Same is true of catalogs--some are rough xeroxes of little use, and some are coffee table books, but they all cost about the same.

[Donn]

"spat the dummy" means "had a temper tantrum" The dummy is a Brit term for a baby's pacifier, which he spits out to scream.

32.50 AUS = $17.26 USD

[ken mcclure]

Will they subtract the cost of the study p:35 if you buy the full plan set?

[LisaS]

At least you were able to get study plans without buying the full set. I attempted to buy study plans for a boat I was interested in, and was told that "if I needed to look at study plans, I was obviously not qualified to build the boat". This was a boat, by the way, that was featured in WB recently. To say that I was put off by this reponse would be mild. :(

Lisa

[K Wilson]

Please, please, tell us who did that so I can avoid them! Not selling study plans is their decision, but being snotty about it is something else entirely.

Usually, the price of study plans just covers mailing and copying costs, plus a little for the hassle. In the Internet Age, they may be partly obsolete - one can post the same thing on a web site with less trouble for everybody.

[A. Mason]

Study Plans do not always include a lines drawing, but will include the cabin arrangement, inboard profile, and, if appropriate, a sail plan profile.

The cost of Study Plans can vary widely, it all depends on the owner of the design. I normally fax or email study plans plus a two-three page description of the design to an inquiry. It's more cost-effective.

As for shipping costs, sending printed material to Canada, Australia, Japan, or anywhere outside the U.S. can get very pricey, up to 3-4 times the cost of sending a package within the U.S.

Traditionally Study Plans were simply enlargements of the drawings which accompanied magazine Design Reviews. These were provided to potential clients so they would be better able to see the details of the design and make a more knowledgeable decision regarding the appropriateness of the design for their purposes.

In the days before computers and CAD programs, it was a bit costly to have full-sized plans reduced to letter-sized paper. A designer would only go to that expense if it was felt that the design would have broad appeal. Some designers would create a special set of drawings but without all the notes and numbers, so interested parties could view the design more clearly.

If special publication drawings, and their reduced sized versions, were not created, the designer would send selected full-sized construction drawings as a substitute.

It was very arrogant of one designer to refuse to send any additional information on his designs. That was not, and is not, typical.

BTW, for every 100 sets of Study Plans naval architect Al Mason sent out, he might receive one sale of the actual construction plans. He used ot charge $7.50 per set for Study Plans to cover his expenses of printing and mailing. By putting a price tag on them, he separated the window-shoppers from the serious customers.

[Dale H]

My only experience with preliminary info for boat designs was with Iain Oughtred when the Eun Mara and Islander (hi Norm) designs were new.

Iain answered all my questions, provided copies of drawings and more, with nothing asked for in return.

After copies of magazine articles and references from other builders of his designs arrived, I sent him a few bucks to at least cover his postage costs.

Needless to say I bought his plans.

Dale

[Wild Dingo]

Not having attempted to buy anything from Glen L

Study plans from Wharram... BRILLIANT!! large envelope scaled down sheets of the desgins different angles sheets of specs sheets of materials sheets of photographs sheets of sail plans and reasonings for the specific type of sail plans used... email was okay not great but okay all questions answered and there are a couple of forums to help you out... cost AUD$35

Study plans from Petersons... AWEFLAMINSOME!! BRILLIANT and every other word I can use... sheets of copies of articles, photos, plans (no numbers) sail plans and other relevant info although not as large sheets as Wharram the info was brilliant and with email assistance from Murray Peterson I couldnt fault them... cost AUD$0

Ive bought several others and none as you would describe maybe its a GlenL thing?... Study plans down here run around the AUD$30-40 mark no matter the design the only differences seem to be in the amount of information in the content.

Your going to find the same sorts of problems with the plans too mate... some will be great and easy while some will assume you know more than you actually do and you really wont know which you have till you have them... but either way your going to pay for them probably double what the US or UK pays but thats our dollar conversion... so no real use in griping they aint gonna lower the price for some yobbo in Aussie who may or may not end up buying the plans mate! Aint gonna happen!

Ive found that email is a brilliant tool DS... Use it!... and then use it some more... and if for any reason you dont get any real answers to your questions... dont buy the study plans... there are a multitude of designs out there and often other sites have the same design just using a different name... for an example: Clark Craft have some similar craft as GlenL and then Hankinsons also have some similar designs with them as well... so check them all out...

The study plan costs are a flamin small cost mate...

Take it easy
Shane

[Biofish]

My thoughts as a Glen-L consumer.

I bought geln-l plans and i have also bought a frame kit from them.. While i give Mr. Witt credit that his boats are beautiful and well planned. I do have a disapointment with the plans i have recieved from them. They do not have enough detail and leave ALOT up to the builder which is very dangerous. I am a expierenced woodworker and i had trouble understanding alot on their blueprints. I am sure that Mr. witt's boats are safe... but the plans that i recieved left alot of things out that, without the help of his very own book that i purchased, i could not have done. Somtimes i wonder if that may be the reason they leave things out of the plans. Would love to do a comparitive study on his book sales for those who have bought plans.

The good part. I would reccomend Glen-L to anyone. They are very polite in customer service, and will connect you straight to one of the designers themselves if you have any question at all... I talked with Barry Witt, whom i believe is Glen-l's son. ( not sure)And he stayed on the phone with me for 30 minutes to make sure i understood the answer to my question, he also would not hang up unless i repeated it back to him... I have worked through my problems and questions with the plans and well, to look on the bright side, i can say i learned alot more by thinking through these problems. I probably underand boat building better now too. Go for it... and don't expect it to fit together like puzzle pieces, that takes all teh fun out of it.

Rob

[doorstop]

Thank you all, especially Rob, as a Glen L customer he has given me some insight into these particular 'plans'.
Mike, the full plans here are just over $300, which I don't think is at all unreasonable provided they are gooduns' as I am a first timer here!
Shane, me old China plate, I realise that the study plan costs are minimal compared to the rest of the boat but I MUST keep SWMBO onside or the depths of my misery shall be difficult to plumb! :eek:
I am sorry if I sounded like a whinger,I definitely don't want "something for nothing" but on this occasion I was feeling just a bit ripped off. I am going to take the 'study plans' with me to our sailing club on Sunday where one of the members is the local boat builder extraordinaire. I shall ask him to explain a few things and also whether he thinks the boat is suitable for our local waters. Also I shall get the things blown up on a fancy photocopying machine thing so I can digest them a little easier...

[Wild Dingo]

well DS me old sock... the mysteries of your particular missus only you can resolve... The plans are gonna cost ya mate!! And if you get really seriously confused like me your gonna have to spend a fair bit on the damn study plans too... but the end is gonna be your gonna have one heck of a wooden boat!!

My personal mysteries of the missus I got down and boogied with her and said I "needed $500 for study plans"... all the while planning on $300... she said "no dillberry $200 max" I said in my best coaxing manner "dont be flamin dense my little possumpoop $400 is the bare assed minimum" she smirked her wiley smirk of supremacy "$250 and not a damn zak more"... "but.." said I "...$350 would do the trick at a pinch cause wes gots to be sure dont we?" so she looked at me with that raised eyebrow knowing I was up to something but just not quite sure of what "$300 then but thats it"... I still smile cause I actually got what I wanted... reverse psychology I think its called or maybe just that shes a blonde! :eek: :D

But then shes now started to reach into the boatbuilding account and begun the decimation proceedings pending the demolition of said boatbuilding account... all this just to sort out some flamin measly bills and other such nonsence... Its gonna take all me well known skills in diplomacy and convincing to get this little blonde bombshell of a possumpoop to reneg on her terrible course... I reckon I can do it... but its gonna take all the promises of King Tut to achieve it!!... like oh a new kitchen, new furniture, maybe another car, and theres bound to be something or other that shes bound to "need" right about NOW!

aaaaahhhhhh well the foibles of the mysteries of woman... :rolleyes:

Keep focused on the end result DS me old mate... that perty wooden boat that will sit on a trailer outside your door... you know the one mate... that fella you built all by your lonesome? yeah thats the one!! :D

Take it easy
Shane

[ 04-04-2002, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[doorstop]

Shane, mate, don't get me missus wrong, she is absolutely the best chicky babe this side of the black stump..... Hells Bells, she married me so she is very forgiving of 'orrible faults for starters, but she is also Chancellor of the Exchequer in the little republic of Hortopia so I have to stay on her right side as much as possible! I know that one day the vessel of my dreams will be parked outside, having taken me off on my little fantasy trip to the Hobart woodenboat fessy and then up a Tasmanian wilderness river for a week or two with the aforesaid Chickybabe.... sighhhh....
:rolleyes:

[skuthorp]

Doorstop, I know aforesaid SWMBO of old, Surely years have not made her so unreasonable as to deny the man of her dreams his 'Dream-boat'? Surely a woman who could dance up a storm in dairy boots would understand the craving of a man for the sea? Residing as you do in the mecca of Australian dry reds, wine her and dine her and slip the plans under her pillow and promise a new kitchen/bathroom/chookhouse/outhouse in the never-never. Failing that, get her to have a chat with Wild Dingo on the theraputic benifits of boat plans.

[doorstop]

Skuthorp (where did that come from?), you made my Margs day when you rang, and No!!, the years haven't diminished her ability to give..I'm sure the "dreamboat", or at least the first one or two, will eventuate. The present boat of desire must have accomodation for her'n'me so we can continue to enjoy connubial bliss whilst actually afloat.... and you know Margs' sense of fun so the "Tug" thing appeals too, our eldest has already named it, the Bo Jest design shall be known as "Beau T" to be pronounced "Boat". Obviously our offspring are as humourously challenged as their parental units!Oh and as far as the chookhouse/kitchen/bathroom etc goes, if you asked her I'm sure she would say "Just finish the house first,PLEASE!"
Come visit, help us drink 'finewine'.... please

[paladin]

just a remark about Al Mason's plans... If you purchase the study plans or the real package....Do not roll them out on the floor and start eyeballing....take them immediately to the local photcopier of such things, make at least one copy, frame the originals because they are truly works of art.....hang them on the wall...and work from the copies. The man was a true artist.

[skuthorp]

I'm just about to knock off till monday, my SWMBO and I have discussed a visit and more of that later. I Intend to be at Goolwa (let our US friends find that one!) next March. Lance Skuthorp was a famous Aussie horseman, at the end of the 1800's I think.

[Donn]

Goolwa? Means "elbow?" Right inside the mouth of the Murray River? Home of the Goolwa Regatta Yacht Club (founded 1854)? The beaches in the Coorong Lagoon?

http://gryc.com.au/images/ellyse3.jpg

I bet I could find it, but at 12kts cruising speed, it'd take me quite a while to get there.

[LaMess]

Latitude 35 30; Longitude 138 47

[doorstop]

I shall be at Goolwa too, it's only a 4 hour drive away. I have already registered and my mate and myself have a 'secret weapon' planned.... should be fun.

[Wild Dingo]

Donn you never cease to amaze me with your facts and figures!! :eek: me... Id get lost in the dunny if there isnt a gps handily located next to the dunny roll and the door aint painted red with white dots!

I take it you reckon Al Masons plans are worth their weight Chuck? Theres a good endorsement DS!

Im dyin to try out a couple of canoes in the Mary River meself... suitably clad with rifles and a Steve Irwin or two for protection from them prehistoric man eaters... but what a place to just meander along lookin at the scenery!! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 04-04-2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[SailBoatDude]

One small comment about remarks made about photocopying plans and working from the copies. Don't . . . There's this thing called parallax distortion. The farther from the center of a lens the more distorted the image becomes. There is an eye piece called a paramag that helps control this on a small scale, but nothing short of digital reproduction at an office specializing is such should be used as plans (on film or other stable material, not paper). Frame the copy and work from the original, as photocopying does other unnice things to line drawings, like choke down thin lines, paper grain stretch/srinkage and other ugliness.

Good Luck,

[bainbridgeisland]

SailBoatDude:

You should never have to scale from a really good set of plans. Thus errors from the copy process wouldn't be transferred to the boat. However, many, many plans are not especially well done and therefore require scaling for missing dimensions and so forth. Still most copy processes do not cause significant problems.

Perhaps a better and cheaper alternative is to simply ask the designer for an extra copy of the drawings you want to frame. The cost of paying the designer for an extra copy is usually very reasonable.

I agree that Al Mason’s work is outstanding. Years ago I worked in an office that had a full size construction plan, a blue print, framed under glass on the wall. We spent hours discussing the merits of the details and admiring the ink work. Only a few have ever done it so well. If you have never seen such a plan, you should go out of your way to find one. Also check out Bill Garden's work and Phil Rhodes among others. Very satisfying.