Clever layouts for small sailboat cabins

[Wes Kisting]

Hi all,

I've been reading around on this site for many weeks now, but since this is my first post, a quick introduction: I'm an English professor at the University of Iowa, and a seasoned sea kayaker who recently took up sailing after building a 14' Pocket Cruiser with my fiancee and sailing it for our honeymoon. You can check out some pictures of the boat at: www.roguepaddler.com/boat.htm (http://www.roguepaddler.com/boat.htm)

My previous boat-building experience was limited to an 18' cedar-strip kayak (The "King" design by Joe Greenley of Redfish Kayaks). Previous sailing experience was limited to a number of crazy (some successful) sailing experiments with my sea kayak. One telescopic mast design (a version of a sprit sail) had my 18' kevlar kayak near-planing at 8 kts, without ballast or amas... since the kayak is only 22" wide, you can guess what happened on any course except straight downwind... yep, instant capsize!

Anyway, I'm already looking ahead to my next sailboat building project... I ordered plans yesterday for the B&B Princess 22, which I've had my eye on for quite sometime. I would have built it instead of the 14' Pocket Cruiser, but it wasn't in the budget, probably wouldn't have been done in time for the honeymoon, and was too big to fit in my current garage.

It will be quite awhile before I get around to building it (I'm going to build a scale model first), but I thought it might be neat to get a thread going about the best uses of interior space you have seen in smaller cabin layouts for boats in the 15' to 30' range. I had a lot of success setting up a minimal yet functional (and spacious) interior in our Pocket Cruiser, but the Princess will have much more space and I'd love to hear about any neat space-saving or comfort-adding features the rest of you have noticed in small-boat interiors... you know, stuff like tables that stow away flat in the floor, fold-down chart tables, miniature navigation stations, seats that pull out to convert to berths, porta-potties hidden under the seats, clever galley set-ups, etc.

What ideas have you seen? What made the idea great or especially useful as designed? I'd love to hear about anything, from whole interior layouts to tiny little trim ideas--functional or cosmetic. Detailed descriptions are wonderful; pictures would be even better!

Thanks!

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Wes:

That is one cute (heard that before?) boat you have there. Congrats!

[Wes Kisting]

Thanks... and yes, we hear the word "cute" whispering over the waters everywhere we sail. smile.gif

We live in Iowa, and although sailboats are not rare, most people around here don't see boats with as much "character" as ours with its catboat styling. So it's always a big hit at the dock... even more so when they find out we built it ourselves. (Boatbuilding is like magic to most people, which is one of the neatest things about building a boat, in my opinion)

[Gavin Atkin]

Does anyone else think that the long-standing debate about changing plans has been re-opened?

Gavin (who is standing back...)

[Wes Kisting]

Hi Gavin,

If you're referring to my post, I wasn't asking so much about ways to "change plans" so to speak... at least not in terms of radically restructuring the cabin space of an existing plan (though it would be fun to hear about that stuff too). My question was intended more in terms of really slick ways of designing added features into the existing layout, WITHOUT altering structural elements.

For example, with my Stevenson Pocket Cruiser, I built it generally according to plan, but the interior was left extremely sparse on the plans. The major change I made was to move the daggerboard boxes in toward the centerline of the boat, so that instead of having slots outside the cabin where a board would need to be manually raised and lowered in the slot on deck, there was a slot in the cabin roof. Because the daggerboard trunks were made taller by this change, the daggerboards could remain entirely hidden inside their trunks, never visible to view. Better yet, they were mounted on pulleys so there was no need to manually grab the board for rasing/lowering. The added bonus was that this created two "pillars" (the trunks themselves) inside the cabin which not only seriously reinforced the cabin roof, but provided space to mount shelving to either side of the cabin door and provide stowage space for a 30 qt. cooler, 8 gallons of water, a small hand pump brass faucet, a 55 Ah battery, an electrical panel to control lighting, etc. All with enough leftover sleeping space to match a conservative 3 or 4 person tent. Not bad for a 14' boat, eh? And the result was a stronger boat that retained (actually strengthened) the structural elements as laid out in the Stevenson plans.

Hope I won't set off a heated debate about the ethics of modifying layouts. I just would like to hear clever space-saving tips like: "My friend sails a Eun Mara with an incredibly cool stove mounted on a drawer configuration so it can be retracted back into the berth when not in use"--you know, stuff like that.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Gavin Atkin:
Does anyone else think that the long-standing debate about changing plans has been re-opened?
I don't know that changing the interior arrangement constitutes changing plans, so long as the weight distribution isn't significantly altered.

I bought study plans for the Princess 22 a couple of years ago and the original interior arrangement was unusual. No real galley, as I recall. The fellow who commissioned the design didn't plan on overnighting, or some such, IIRC.

Anyway, I plan on following this thread with interest.

Wayne

[Dave Hadfield]

I had a MacGregor 26S (1990) with a very small, shallow galley area.

Try to work out the galley so that you can cook sitting down. This means having a seat, perhaps one that swivels or moves, and all pots and pans and condiments and dishes within reach.

It is very convenient, if perhaps a bit unsightly, if your dishracks and glass racks and cutlery containers are fastened to the walls and bulkheads. Having to always open compartments or boxes to get at a (eg) pair of tongs is irritating because on a very small boat such things usually have stuff piled on top of them. You can make quite attractive racks and buy fancy tinware plates and things that are not unpleasant to look at. (Enameled tinware is thinner to store in a rack.) For cutlery, I made a rack of 4 sections of 3" pvc pipe (sections about 5 in long). One pipe held spoons, one forks, and so on. (The pipes each had a bottom screwed in, of course.) It was right beside the stove and very handy.

Our table was the lid of an aft-berth storage compartment. It was attached to the counter with 2 bolts and wing-nuts, and supported by one leg. This sounds crappy, but worked -- over 9 seasons -- just fine.

I used a simple propane 2-burner Coleman camping stove (cheap and available everywhere) and a 5-lb re-fillable propane bottle on a 6-ft hose. All this was kept in the open where any leaks would be smelt. (I would not put this stuff in the bilge.) Very hot, very simple, and cheap.

It's important to do whatever you want. You, and you alone, should determine what goes where in the galley (or your wife, if she's interested).

In a small boat, don't worry about fine galley carpentry. Make it simple and practical.

[Dave Hadfield]

I had a MacGregor 26S (1990) with a very small, shallow galley area.

Try to work out the galley so that you can cook sitting down. This means having a seat, perhaps one that swivels or moves, and all pots and pans and condiments and dishes within reach.

It is very convenient, if perhaps a bit unsightly, if your dishracks and glass racks and cutlery containers are fastened to the walls and bulkheads. Having to always open compartments or boxes to get at a (eg) pair of tongs is irritating because on a very small boat such things usually have stuff piled on top of them. You can make quite attractive racks and buy fancy tinware plates and things that are not unpleasant to look at. (Enameled tinware is thinner to store in a rack.) For cutlery, I made a rack of 4 sections of 3" pvc pipe (sections about 5 in long). One pipe held spoons, one forks, and so on. (The pipes each had a bottom screwed in, of course.) It was right beside the stove and very handy.

Our table was the lid of an aft-berth storage compartment. It was attached to the counter with 2 bolts and wing-nuts, and supported by one leg. This sounds crappy, but worked -- over 9 seasons -- just fine.

I used a simple propane 2-burner Coleman camping stove (cheap and available everywhere) and a 5-lb re-fillable propane bottle on a 6-ft hose. All this was kept in the open where any leaks would be smelt. (I would not put this stuff in the bilge.) Very hot, very simple, and cheap.

It's important to do whatever you want. You, and you alone, should determine what goes where in the galley (or your wife, if she's interested).

In a small boat, don't worry about fine galley carpentry. Make it simple and practical.

[Gavin Atkin]

Wayne -

I think Wes did more than arrange the internals to his liking.

Wes -

The major change I made was to move the daggerboard boxes in toward the centerline of the boat, so that instead of having slots outside the cabin where a board would need to be manually raised and lowered in the slot on deck, there was a slot in the cabin roof. Because the daggerboard trunks were made taller by this change, the daggerboards could remain entirely hidden inside their trunks, never visible to view. I don't quite follow. Doesn't that make the cabin floor narrower?

Better yet, they were mounted on pulleys so there was no need to manually grab the board for rasing/lowering. Now that is interesting. I wonder how that works... Do the lines run down inside the daggerboard trunks?

The added bonus was that this created two "pillars" (the trunks themselves) inside the cabin which not only seriously reinforced the cabin roof, but provided space to mount shelving to either side of the cabin door and provide stowage space for [snip...] All with enough leftover sleeping space to match a conservative 3 or 4 person tent. Not bad for a 14' boat, eh? Not bad? Astonishing, I'd say.

Of course those of us who haven't bought a copy of Stephenson's plans have a little difficulty comparing what you've built with what they've drawn. I'm a little nervous about how low you're putting all that stuff you're stowing... Given that you've also raised the cuddy roof, I hope it's as low as possible.

Gav

[PVanderwaart]

Since "pocket cruiser" usually means a trailer boat, and a trailer boat usually means a centerboard boat, creativity in interior arrangement starts with getting the cb out of the way to free up some space. There are at least three methods: 1) simply moving it a bit to the side, 2) using leeboards instead, and 3) going to a keel.

A good example of method 1 is John Welsford's Tread Lightly. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm

Method 2 is used a lot by Jim Michalak: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/musicbox3/index.htm

Method 3 is used by Phil Bolger. The keels are quite shallow, so they are not fatal to trailering. The classic example is Micro, of course, but there are others including the Supermouse.

Peter

[Alan D. Hyde]

Wes, I went to your website, and was impressed by your boat's innovative and highly effective use of the limited space available.

Congratulations on an excellently conceived and executed project.

Now, will you please tell us more about the daggerboards? And do you have any photos of them you might care to post here?

http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/sailboat1.jpg

The daggerboards, I assume, are in the boxed in cases, one of which shows here behind the fan, extending into the overhead---

http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/sailboat9.jpg

Here's the other---

http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/sailboat11.jpg

***

Alan

[ 08-26-2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Ed Armstrong]

My experience with boat interiors is limited, only having seen the inside of half a dozen different models, but IMHO the Compac 19 has one of the best interiors for an under 20' production boat that I have seen. It has a shoal draft keel, eliminating the centerboard intrusion into the cabin, a fairly large v-berth, and two quarterberths with sufficient clearance under the cockpit seats so that I didn't feel like I was in a coffin. I believe a stove/sink was available as a slide-out option from the v-berth area:

http://www.com-pacowners.com/4images/details.php?image_id=116
http://www.com-pacowners.com/4images/details.php?image_id=117

As you indicated, I think simplicy is key in functionality of a cabin in a small trailerable cruiser.

Ed

[Bruce Hooke]

I lived for 9 months on board a 23' 3000# sailboat, so living on a small boat is something I am VERY familiar with! :D The boat I was on had a v-berth and then about 24" behind the v-berth before you got to the cockpit. That space was filled on one side with the porta-potty with a folding wood lid on top if it and on the other side with a general purpose flat surface with drawers below it.

I would put a high priority on comfortable places to sit, and being able to reach as many things as possible from where you can sit.

I don't have a lot of clever ideas, but what I would suggest is:

1. Keep things simple. Think camping rather than "cabin." Holding the bowl I'm eating from is not a big deal to me. Storage space is what matters! It is good if everything has a designated location, so that things do not get too messy.

2. As much as possible make each space serve multiple purposes.

For example, rather than taking up space with a built in sink use your largest cooking pot (or a plastic bucket) as your sink.

My stove was a gimbaled single burner unit that ran off a propane bottle screwed straight to the bottom of the stove. It mounted on a bracket so when it was not in use I could stow it it in the lazarette, which was cut off from the rest of the boat so I did not have to worry as much about propane leaks, and it was out of the way.

I am not familiar with the Princess 22, so you may have more space to work with than I did...

[Wes Kisting]

Alan--Thanks for the compliment.

The pictures on my website haven't been updated to show the pulleys I built to raise/lower the daggerboard. I'll have to snap a new pic next time I get over to the storage garage.

Yes, the "pillars" you see in the interior picture are the daggerboard boxes running floor to ceiling, and then surrounded by the shelves. All of the storage is on the floor (under the shelves), so weight is kept as low down as possible AND as close as possible to the middle of the boat (for trim purposes). The boat balances incredibly well in the water, sitting deeper when the cooler and drinking water are loaded, but not interfering with the trim of the waterline. I'm really quite surprised how well it all worked out from a balance perspective. The boat is actually noticeably more stable while heeling when the cooler and water are loaded.

Tough to describe without pictures, but... Basically, it's a 4:1 purchase pulley system for each daggerboard. I used two pulleys attached to the top of the daggerboard and two pulleys hanging overhead on a very short "crane" (not sure what else to call it) that sits on top of the slot on the roof. 5 lbs. of pull raises or lowers each 20 lb. daggerboard (they're stainless steel) and then a cleat holds the line at a set height. The pulley lines and the two pulleys attached to the top edge of the daggerboards (Harken micro blocks) DO ride up and down inside the slot, but I tied a stopper knot in the line so that the daggerboard never drops down further than 2/3 of its height (i.e., keeps them from dropping straight out the bottom of the boat). When trailering, I pin each board in the "up" position with a 5/16" pin to make sure the boards don't fall out on the Interstate, even if the raise/lower line were to break somehow.

Moving the daggerboard slots in toward the centerline of the boat DID reduce the width of the floor a little (compared to installing them under the deck according to plan); however, there's still 5' or more width between them, so it doesn't really impact comfort negatively. There's plenty of width for legs, and as you may have noticed I designed the shelving to stop just fore of the daggerboard slots so that the rest of the floor retains full width for maximum shoulder room. The "dead space" right in front of the shelves makes an excellent little spot to stow pillows and clothing, etc. Things that you want to keep in easy reach, but not have to climb over.

I don't consider this a "serious modification" to the DESIGN of the Stevenson plans because moving the daggerboards closer to the centerline of the boat does not change any of the performance factors. They are still mounted the proper distance fore and aft to put the Center of Effort of the boards under the Center of Effort of the sails, as required. But the benefits, in my opinion, are huge: no ugly daggerboards cluttering up the deck when retracted... no need to move around the boat to raise the weather board and drop the lee board each time we tack... assurance that the roof is rock solid enough to stand on (because reinforced by the "pillars" that are the daggerboard trunks)... etc.

I'll try to post a nice pic of the raise/lower mechanism for the daggerboards when I get a chance.

[Wes Kisting]

Bruce--I agree: think "camping" and keep things simnple.

My experience as a sea kayaker has taught me the virtue of packing small, and designing gear that can fulfill a variety of functions in order to simplify and reduce the amount of "stuff" required.

As a side note, since a few of you have commented on the Princess... I hope I didn't give you all the impression that I'm asking how to re-design the Princess 22's interior... I've ordered plans for the Princess, but I don't know what I'm going to build next. (Probably nothing for awhile... just got married so money is not abundant right now if you know what I mean.) The real reason I started this thread is because I've never found a website which catalogs all the great cabin space ideas that you sometimes stumble across individually while browsing the 'net late at night. A lot of times, it's easy to find exterior shots of all kinds of small sailboats on the web, but not many interior photos. It would be cool if people on the forum here could post pics of their cabin interiors so the rest of us can see what we're missing (or not missing) that might improve comfort on our own boats.

Some neat ideas have come across already... keep 'em coming!

smile.gif Wes

[WX]

Nice boat and good website, congratulations.
The companionway doors look like they might take up a bit of cockpit space when open.

[Wes Kisting]

WX, you're exactly right about the doors... when open, they eat up about 12" of space from either cockpit seat (not too bad, but sometimes annoying). Given the chance, I'd build them very differently next time around. Not to knock Stevenson Projects, but I was "less than impressed" with their plans. The instructions for the Pocket Cruiser were written in a sort of stream-of-consciouness "do this then do that" hodge-podge of run-on sentences... which doesn't lend much clarity to the process, so you end up committing yourself to certain design idiosyncracies early on, long before you realize that it would have been SO much better to build some things another way, if only you had forseen the troubles. The doors were a nightmare to get right, but would have been absolutely simple (and non-intrusive in the cockpit) if the doorway in the bulkhead had simply been cut square with the door frame high enough to clear the seats. Oh well, next time...

Anyway, here's some pics of daggerboard rigging to raise/lower the boards. A "crane" built from oak sits atop the slot for the daggerboards. A rope runs from a fixed point at the forward edge of the crane, down through a pulley attached to the top edge of the daggerboard, back up over a pulley sheave on the crane, back down through another pulley attached to the top edge of the daggerboard, back up over another pulley sheave on the crane, then runs aft to a cleat. A stopper knot in the end of the running rigging keeps the daggerboard from falling through if I should ever accidentally let go of the rope. And a silver 5/16" pin runs through the top of the daggerboard trunk, through the top edge of the daggerboard to "pin" the board in the up position when trailering.

http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/sideview.jpg

Here's the view from the top. The line is tied off to the forward-most bolt (left side of picture); the other two bolts run through Harken ball-bearing sheaves which roll very freely and produce a frictionless mechanism for raising/lowering. The pulleys attached to the top edge of the daggerboard are Harken Micro blocks if I remember correctly.
http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/topview.jpg

Here you can see the line running back to a cleat to control depth of the board. There's a stopper knot tied in the end of this line which stops the board in the 2/3 lowered position to prevent the board from falling through in the event someone suddenly lets go of the line without cleating it:
http://www.roguepaddler.com/bimages/aftview.jpg

[Steve Lansdowne]

I enjoyed looking at your building photos and descriptions on your web site. Nice job on both the boat and the web site. I wish you and Anna many happy years of married life together, now get busy on that second boat before you need it to accommodate any kids that might come along!

[Dan Hobson]

Great boat, and a great set of ideas! This might seem like boat building or interior design to you. But you are actually moving towards an interesting area of vehicle design. Defining the mission of the vehicle and forming the spaces to accomodate the tasks involved. A boat is not an extremely effective way to get from place to place. Any more, it's a place to be together with others and have everything you might need at hand. This is a wonderful effort.

I hope you and your wife have many happy years. And I would encourage you to repeat this very inspiring work.

[Wes Kisting]

Ed--
Great links! That folding galley is really slick. Permanently mounted galleys always make me a bit nervous... I'm afraid of using any kind of flame inside a small wooden structure, so I've always opted for a portable stove that I can move out to the cockpit when cooking. But the folding galley on the link you posted looks pretty nicely (and safely) laid out.

[Dave R]

Wes, you have done a very nice job on your PC and congratulations on your marriage and honeymoon trip. I enjoyed looking at the pictures of your trip and recognized many of the places you were along the way.

I usually sail my Weekender on Lake Pepin. It is a beautiful lake to sail on.

I like your dagger board arrangement and your lifting mechanism. Very ingenious.

Perhaps you could be persuaded to join in on the next Minnesota Messabout on Lake Pepin? It probably won't happen until next spring but you'll be welcome to come.

Dave

[Meerkat]

IMO, two of the best interior layouts for boats in the 20' range are the Golant Gaffer and the Welsford Penguin.

Penguin:
http://www.oz.net/~whisper/images/penguindraw.gif

Golant Gaffer:
http://www.tiki30.com/P5162366.JPG

[PVanderwaart]

An example of what not to do is the O'Day Mariner 2+2. A glance at the layout drawing suggests the boat sleeps four (!), but in fact, none of the berths is large enough for a grown man. And no storage.

[John Turpin]

It's an interesting design question and always forces one into a position of compromise. It seems like the issue falls into a discussion of 'open and airy' or 'filled with compartments'.

The Penguin above uses the compartment approach nicely. There's a head, a galley and berth area--all in a pretty small boat. The design gives you a tiny room for all cabin functions and gives you lots of privacy for a small space. It would definately feel cramped after a day or so. You certainly wouldn't be tossing around the frisbee in there.

It's interesting looking at (eek!) Catalina's design changes over time. They've gone from compartments to just one big open cabin. They've traded bulkheads for roominess. I'm guessing the market prefers that.

I can see the case for either approach. Tight, cluttered spaces don't bother me much and any privacy I can gain is well worth it for me. Your mileage may vary.

[Alan D. Hyde]

What "sitting headroom" is, varies from person to person.

I am 6' 6" (~ 2 meters) and 40" (~ 1 meter) would be minimal for me--- probably not enough, although most of my height is in my legs.

Get lots of free cardboard from your local supermarket, before it hits the crusher.

Set up mock cabin interiors using duct tape and cardboard, old furniture, what have you...

Actually try out a number of arrangements, Wes, and see what dimensions you and Anna need in order to to feel comfortable.

Alan

[TimothyB]

I'm surprised noone thought of mentioning the Glen-L Amigo:

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-amilb.jpg

Now, she's a 5100#, ballasted keel boat but she -is- technically trailerable. She also has standing headroom in a small space, including the special shower arrangement they have. Very well designed I think, and to camping minded folks she would seem a long distance cruiser. She does draught 3' tho, so you'd have to rig beach legs for coastal exploration of the type you show for your beauty of a cat boat, and a clearly beautiful and fantastic wife, considering she obviously likes sailing! All three of you look great together, by the way :)

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/amigo.html

[Doug Canada]

For a garage builder I'm hooked on the Dudley Dix design;

Cape Cutter 19
http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm
http://www.capecutter19.com/

Cape Henry 21 (the bigger sister)
http://www.dixdesign.com/ch21.htm

(I'm surprised no one has tackled it here, yet)

All the best
Doug

[Wes Kisting]

Dave R--I'd love to come up for the Minnesota Messabout. Give me a heads-up next time it comes around. I'll do my best to get up to Pepin (any excuse to go back would be welcomed).

[Wes Kisting]

Has anyone ever seen or considered building a "pop-top" cabin? I'm not talking about a cabin which can be removed, but rather a cabin with a roof designed similar to a pop-up camper. I suppose you would need a sliding support in each corner, perhaps a hydraulic piston or a corkscrew arrangement... when at anchor, you could crank the roof up, say, about 6"-12" to gain standing headroom during the evenings, but then lower the roof again to keep the CG down during sailing. I've never seen or heard of anything like this, but if the complexities of construction could be worked out in a slick way, I think it would be a great idea... like all great ideas, I'm guessing someone else has already had it before, so let me know if a pop-up cabin roof already exists somewhere.

The key difficulty would be building it with a stiff enough frame to maintain the strength of the roof and to form a weatherproof/watertight seal when the roof is lowered to its normal height, but still light enough to raise easily and not compromise the CG too much. Hmmmm.... already my mind is picturing pulleys and rods and elaborate cogs....

Just an idea.

[landlocked sailor]

Wes, the 'Broads Yachts' sailed on the Norfolk Broads in England have just such an animal. Also, several FG pocket cruisers have had something similar in the past. Rick

[Dave Hadfield]

One aspect of the Penguin I do not like is the tiny sidedecks. Look at the drawing. They're too small to walk on and they mess up the interior.

You can see the corner projecting right into the back of the guy's head!

I think it's simpler, lighter, cheaper and more space-giving in a small boat to go to a raised deck.

[Wes Kisting]

For those smaller boats which are equipped with marine heads (toilets)... how is the head usually arranged? Just under a flip up berth lid? What's underneath? A porta-pottie (like Sanipottie) or a pump-action head to a holding tank?

I'm asking because I would think the wrong layout could result in odor problems... and yes, I realize I'm opening a can of worms with this subject because there are whole books written on toilets. It's only the layout that concerns me for purposes of this question (should it be close to the middle of the boat to reduce wave action? should it be close to the companionway opening to vent odors? should it be under something more secure than a flip-top lid to prevent splashing/leaking onto the cabin sole? etc.) Any layout advice is helpful as I try to imagine a good way to make it possible for the wife to "go" onboard in privacy... probably just number 1, not number 2 (we'll still go ashore for the latter).