What makes a good sailing canoe?

[RobFM]

With summer ending I am starting to ponder the next project. I have been pulling a trailer around with a sailing skiff and carrying a plastic kayak on the roof rack.

Now I am thinking that what I really want is the 50/50 style sail and paddle canoe. I bought Todd Bradshaw's book and have been looking at sailing canoes on the internet. It seems that people have put sails on just about any kind of hull, but I have to think that some hulls are better suited than others.

I basically want a light boat that is easy to car-top, paddles OK and can handle a small sail for use on lakes and ponds. I am thinking probably 12 to 14 feet is a reasonable length, but there are a lot of other variables including weight, beam, rocker and so on.

Can anyone suggest some general gudelines?

Thanks,

Rob

[John A. Campbell]

I am in the process of building "Piccolo" sailing canoe using 5 mm glued lap Okoume and following Tom Hill's method of lining off and planking using ribbands to control plank shapes. I'm also following Norm Messinger's suggestion of notching the molds for the ribbands to allow the planks to more accurately follow the hull curvature. I'll be cutting the notches with a router mounted on a homemade jig, adjustable to the ribband angle which must be determined before any cutting takes place. I'm using glued lap mainly because of the heat and extremes of humidity and dryness which we experience here in Texas.

I chose "Piccolo" mainly because I thought she was the prettiest of all the sailing canoes I have seen and also because Bruce Taylor had built one and seemed to be satisfied with her.

[John A. Campbell]

Oh, yes, I forgot another reason to build "Piccolo",,,,,,she is of a size that will ride nicely in the bed (6' 5") of my old Ford Supercab if you slide her in there diagonally. And if I buy the new one I'm thinking about, it will have an 8'0" bed which will allow up to a 15' boat if carried diagonally (Texas law allows 4'0" extended past a load bearing surface and a tailgate let down is considered part of the load bearing surface.). I don't want anything that requires a trailer....takes all the spontaniety out of the sport. I have Tom Hill's 11'6" "Charlotte" canoe and getting ready to go to the lake with her is like getting ready to go to the store.

[Todd Bradshaw]

If I set out to design something in that size range out of the blue, I think I'd make decking a priority if I really wanted general-purpose use out of it. It also makes low sides possible for easier paddling and allows for flotation/dry storage compartments, bulkheads, etc. People's levels of what kind of beam a small canoe requires for stability vary a lot, but there is no reason to go to extremes in either direction. For a 50/50 boat, I might start somewhere in the 30"-32" range for it's waterline beam. Going a little wider would be better for sailing, but too much will make it a pig to paddle.

There isn't much to be gained (and there may be a considerable amount of performance to lose) by trying to design a sailing canoe that tracks like it's on rails, so rocker is generally a good thing. I've had canoes that were straight up-forward and rockered aft, rockered forward and straight aft, rockered in accelerating curves at both ends and a couple that had fairly high amounts of rocker which seemed to be very uniform in straight lines from the center to each end. They all seemed to work, though the last bunch seemed, in general, to be faster for paddling. I don't know enough about design to say why, but there are folks here who probably do.

I'd most likely rig the boat with a mid-sized, single sail. If it's going to need to be stowed while underway, probably some sort of gunter or bat-wing derivative with a two-piece mast and a fairly short boom. A reef would be nice, but I think the key is not going too big on sail area to start with. The more you add, the more your boat becomes a "fair-weather-only sailor".

Something closer to the 14'-long end of your spectrum would probably be a better and more secure 50/50 boat than one nearer the 12' end. Weight should be pretty reasonable either way, but will depend greatly upon construction method, materials and scantlings.

[garland reese]

The West Systems Epoxyworks magazine had a nice article on a couple of 50/50 siling canoes that were done by Meade and another fella. These were, I think, a Bell Starfire of carbon/kevlar construction. This boat is 15'long and 34" abeam. They decked them over after cutting down the sheerline to allow easier paddling with a double paddle, but enough freeboard to maintain bouyancy. The ends were kept as high as would still allow a nice and fair sheerline. Decks were strip built. these boats are very nice.
Selway Fisher has a nice hull of 15' and 35" beam. It is in Stitch and glue construction, and is called the 50/50 canoe. Ample decking is shown.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/5050d1.GIF

[dld]

Hugh Horton was the other guy
web page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Fishwick/horton1.htm)

[skuthorp]

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/canoe_sailing.html

Try this site, lots of info here. I sail,row and paddle a 16' decked Macgreggor, by Ian Oughtred. Prettty satisfactory all round and will sail in about 3" of water. More stable than it looks. In retrospect I'd lengthen the cockpit aft about 18" and use the 2 mast rig. I think the deck is essential for any kind of open water, you can let it dip a rail without worry and it keeps a lot af water out. Plenty of watertight space for gear and flotation too. laid on it's side rigged it takes very little water as the cockpit floats just clear of the surface. :D :D

[RobFM]

Thanks to all for your inputs and suggestions.

John, I agree that "Piccolo" is one of the nicest looking sailing canoes and also the right size for hauling around. I expect you will have a good time with both the building and the sailing.

But, with 2 young kids and a fixer-upper house, the traditional construction described in the book "10 Wooden Boats..." looks like more of a project than I want to take on right now. At this point I am leaning more towards the Selway-Fisher 50/50 S&G design.

Todd, Thanks for your input. It's great when you can get suggestions from the man who really did "write the book" on this topic.

Regards,

Rob

[Meerkat]

Bill Serjeant, who commissioned the 50/50 Sailing Canoe does not appear to be a big guy and he seems to be happy with his Caleb's rowing performance. He's just done a multi-day tour in the UK. He's published a story, with pics, at http://www.btinternet.com/~w.serjeant/canoe/canoe_files/s_west.htm

There are also a lot of pics and information on construction of a "50/50" at his website: http://www.smallsailboats.co.uk/ (and click on "50/50 Sailing and Paddling Canoes"). He says it took him 231 hours to build his boat.

Mr. Serjeant seems like quite a nice guy. I've exchanged a few emails with him about his boats (Caleb is the second he's built) and his micro-sailboat philosophy.

[ 09-25-2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Aramas]

What makes a good sailing canoe? Light winds and calm waters ;)

[Eric Sea Frog]

http://www.caillou-boats.com/pictures/Lake_Beach_med.JPG

Never tried one, but they turned my head.
Aramas is right about the weather conditions for sailing canoes and kayaks.
Some of them that have akas and amas can be comfy at sea, but then you need a contraption like a board or deck plates to sit out of the coaming when it heaves too much.

Caillou Boats (http://www.caillou-boats.com/)

[ 09-28-2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Eric Sea Frog ]

[Steve Clark]

One thing to think about, the tumblehome usually seen in canoes is there for a good reason. To maximize WL beam and still make it easy to put the paddles in the water. This makes paddling canoes pretty wet when they start being driven by sails into a seaway. So one thing that makes a good sailing canoe is flare and reserve bouyancy forward. C class canoes, even with big foredecks can turn into submarines if you drive them hard, they throw so much spray around that even big suction bailers can't keep up.
Otherwise the more easily driven the paddling canoe, the more easily it will slip along under sail. You have to figure out the compromise on tracking vs manuvering though. Paddlers like their boats to track, sailors like their boats to tack. Usually the ACA guys used to spread the gunwales slightly to induce a bit more rocker but still keep the ends in the water. They used to start with Sawyer TW specials, and Mohawk Ranger models and build them up from there. I guess any 17' "fast cruiser" would do. The design I did stole the underwater shape from the Ranger and put flared topsides and wide gunwales on it. Pretty much turned it into a sailboat. If I had to cover any distance, I would have preferred to row it.

[dadadata]

The Phil Bolger "Peero" shareware design is a great little 12 x 24" sailing canoe ... well, nano sailing sharpie since it does have a transom stern; you could continue to a pointy stern if you want without adding much to the design. It's on my Cheap Pages.

It paddles reasonably well; it's mainly for sailing; I've had it out in 10kt winds and would be inclined to leave it at no more than that.

It is probably the fastest, cheapest and most functional design you'll see.

As an aside, I'd suggest obtaining a castoff Optimist Pram sail if you're inclined to "just experiment" on an existing 12-14ft canoe. It is 33sf -- a good size. You can rig the sail as a lug or Opti-style sprit, seems to make little difference. Probably could make a tiny gaffer out of it if extra strings tweak your fancy.

In fact there are two Bolger peeros locally and one is gaff and the other lug, rigged.

[RobFM]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Looks like there are fair number of options.

Rob