Ice yacht questions....

[Joe Dupere]

posted 11-08-2002 01:50 PM
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Off and on now for a couple of years now I've been mulling over the idea of trying some ice sailing. I've never done it before so I don't know where to start. I have found many web pages devoted to ice-boat racing, but I'm not really interested in that. At least not yet. What I'd like to do is narrow down the search somewhat and see if I can find a basic 'idiot's guide to ice sailing' type of book, and plans for an inexepensive ice boat, just so I can get my feet
wet, (or frostbit), and see if I really like it
or not without putting out hundreds of dollars for a racing boat. Are there any iceboaters out there who can point me in the right direction?
Thanks, Joe.

[Tim B]

Plans for DN class iceboats are cheap or free. There is a class web page. My brother in law has built afew relatively inexpensively ones . His biggest investment is usually the sail. Plywood construction, with epoxy, makes the runners himself from some scrap metal. Mast and boom were from an old sailboat, cut to size. Even though it is to a racing design, it isn't 'race-ready'. He uses it just to mess around in. They are small enough (12') to trailer or cartop to a lake. He's on his 3rd or 4th now. Usually comes up with a better idea for how to make something, sells the one he has and builts another. My sister's not too happen about that part. Seems like he's never done building the one he's going to keep.

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

<<My sister's not too happen about that part. Seems like he's never done building the one he's going to keep. >>

What is it about wimmin??? (mostly wimmins at least) Can't they be pleased we're being persistent???

[Tim B]

I guess this proves that wooden boat syndrome can't be cured by cold temps.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The DN Class association site is here:
http://sailingsource.com/ice/index.htm

They publish about the only current (or reasonably current) book on iceboating which is called "Think Ice". It's $15 and worth having, but the website says it's currently out of print. I imagine they will reprint it as it's not a very expensive book to produce. It's mostly about DN's, but has some building and sailing information that is helpful with almost any iceboat.

I think it would be pretty tough to start from scratch and put a reasonable DN together for less than $500-$700. There are a lot of parts that you really don't want to fail at 50 m.p.h. Current race-ready boats cost more like $1,500-$2,000 to build. Used DN's are out there and though overweight and no longer competitive, they still sail and can be a pretty good deal. Another boat to watch for is the Lockley Skimmer. It's a tubular metal frame with a sling seat. It's simple almost to the point of being crude, but really fun to sail. New ones are about $1,500, but used boats sometimes show up for as little as $200 if you can find one.

Check the library (and any available inter-library loan program) for a copy of the book "Wings on the Ice" by Gardiner (1938). It's not all that rare and has a lot of info that will help you design or build a simple boat by looking at sucessful designs. It's an old book, but much of it is still valid.

To be reasonably successful, your homemade iceboat needs to be fairly lightweight. At the same time, and if it is a reasonable design, it will go much faster than you ever thought it would - fast enough that failure while sailing can put you in the hospital, so cut costs where you can, but don't skimp on sturdy construction.

[Leon m]

Joe
I've been entertaining ideas of iceboats myself.
Ice boating is real big in my area.Last year I
went down to the ice and talked to a bunch of guys
from a local sailing club.They were more than
happy to answer all my questions,offered to sell
me a couple of used boats,asked me to join,and they said they would even help me build my own
boat.If you want to get into iceboat sailing I
would make some calls to local sailing clubs
find out who's into it,you'll probably get all
the help you'll need.
Good Luck! Leon

[Paul Jeffrey]

Joe,

Do a search for an iceboat called Isabella. Our friend Konrad built two of them. They are pretty straight forward as to the build. Last I heard from him he was lusting to build a DN. But he has said he was getting speeds around 45 mph on the Isabella.

You can also do a search for a boat called the Arrow. Also search for land yachts some of the designs can be fitted runners instead of wheels. Take a look at Dave Lords site he has lots of info and links to landsailing. He lives out on the coast about 15 miles from me.

Good luck.

[ahp]

Never sailed an ice boat but I have seen the DN. I remember they only have about 40 sq ft of sail but have reached 70 mph. DN stands for Detroit New by the way. They published the design many years ago.

The guy that sold me my Hobie 16 many years ago was a hard water sailor in the winter. He said he was electronically clocked at 120 mph on Lake Winnapassaukie (sp?) in a Skeeter. Have fun.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The website for the Isabella is here:
http://www.berezin.com/index.shtml

An Arrow is a pretty nice two person boat (I own one) but used ones seldom sell for less than $3,000, so it may be out of the budget.

A DN has 60 sq. ft. of sail area.

Another interesting boat is the Ice Flyer and I think they sell either kits or plans, though it won't be a cheap project:
http://iceflyer.com/index.html

[Remove me from this thing.]

Or you might want to check out the Snowfer (http://www.snowfer.com/indexb.html) .

This thing really has my eye.

[jeffsod]

Joe, The book Todd recommends fits the bill of Iceboating For Dummies for sure and it will be available again the first of the year. The New England Ice Yacht Association's secretary Amos Heckendorf may still have a copy on hand from the last printing and is worth the effort to chase it down. You can try e-mailing Amos at:
amos@nestgrp.com

By the way the author Lloyd Roberts is from Maine and you should get in touch with him. He is very active in iceboats still and has an e-mail digest he sends out biweekly with news and ice information during the season. He will also know of most any boat available for sale in the area. You can reach Lloyd at

lroberts@midcoast.com

The DN makes the most sense to build or buy as it will retain its value where other designs which may take just as much effort to build may not. The isabella is worth a look but resale won't be as good. Most iceboat hardware can be bought from Steve Duhamel of Northwind iceboats in MA and I know he has a half dozen boats at his house available for sale now. nthwind1@aol.com

I am sure even if you don't build or buy a boat the great guys from the Chickawaukee Ice Yacht club (which includes Lloyd) can get you on the ice sailing if you so desire.

You can also pose any iceboating questions on our Yahoo E-Groups message board at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceBoating/
You will need to create a Yahoo user name and login.

One warning, it's very addictive.

[ 11-12-2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: jeffsod ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

I feel the neeeeeed for speeeeeed! Shouldn't be too long now.

[jeffsod]

Yeah, what he said...

Another design I can highly recommend that is very popular in the Northeast is the Gambit. It is a two seat design that utilizes standard DN hardware but has more sail area longer running plank and a spring board for a smooother ride than a DN and you can bring along family and friends. As a matter of fact the guy who designed the boat is the same one who wrote Think Ice, Lloyd Roberts. Since you are up there in Maine it should be real easy to get a set of plans. I think he usually gets 15 bucks for them. There is a bunch of photos of them on the Yahoo Iceboating homepage under the photos link file Gambit.

[jeffsod]

Ok, one more thing, on the New England Ice Yacht Association's website which is located here:
http://www.cris.com/~Dn4762/
There is a section called the 'Unclassifieds' and currently there are two different listings for boats in Maine for sale:

I'd like to sell my DN Ice Boat. I bought it used from Steve Duhamel in
1997. Only sailed it twice. It's like new. Varnished mahogany and spruce.
Was asking $2,000. Now asking $1,600.
Ren Drews
Brunswick, ME
W. 207 236 4067
C 207 691 6002
rdrews@realtyresourcesgroup.com
rdrews@cybertours.com

DN and DN equipment for sale. Complete boat, mast sail, runners, etc $1800.00. Also trailer,
chocks, runners. Maine. Call Don Coe (207) 622-7089 or doncoe@aol.com 10/02

[Joe Dupere]

I really appreciate all of the responses and the leads. Thanks to all of you, this is one of the reasons I really enjoy this forum.

Joe

[brian.cunningham]

Thanks for posting the page Jeff.

I just missed the opening meeting :(

Does THIS boat attend the get togethers? :eek:

http://www.concentric.net/%7Edn4762/art/jfrost.jpg

BTW you folks see RUM RUNNER in the "lauchings" section of the latest WB? Way :cool: looking boat!

[jeffsod]

Brian, That boat is the one and only

Jack Frost

which the photo was taken on Lake Winnepasauke a number of years ago. I forget the overall dimensions off hand but it is one of the largest iceboats in existance, a class A stern steerer.

That boat attended one of our end of season gatherings at Lake Winnie that we call our Spring Frolic. It brings out boats from NJ-Maine and beyond. Unfortunately due to poor late season ice we have not had one in several years. Last season we made due by having a gathering at Lake Wentworth nearby that was well attended.


Here's another beauty;

http://www.iceboat.org/VintagePages/vintagephotos/firsthalf/maryb4.htm

http://www.iceboat.org/Images/VintagePhotos/VinPhotos/20-40/Mary_B_and_crew.jpg

[ 11-13-2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: jeffsod ]

[brian.cunningham]

Neat!

I subscribed o the mailing list.
I gather that will let me know when the next regatta is.
I apprceiate it if you let the forum know.
I'd love to show up, if just to take photos!

cheers!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Jack Frost is 50' long. The boat in the black and white photo is the Mary B. on Lake Mendota, here in Madison. I have friends who have sailed aboard her, but don't know if she is still sailing..

[jeffsod]

Brian, Yeah I know I approved your new account. The racing events are 'officially' posted on the NEIYA site so it is best to check there. We will be having a tune up clinic around the end of the year for begginers and that is a good event to attend for new people. The club maintains a hotline which you can call on any given Friday night to find out where we are sailing that weekend. That number is (508)481-1011. That is usually the most current information as the website is harder to update. One other thing to keep an eye on is the Ice Reports page that is part of the NEIYA site. It is a self posting page where people post local ice reports so if you can't make it to where most of the club members will be then you can see if there is someplace closer where people might be sailing. One caveat is that take the info for what its worth. Just because it is posted doesn't mean its 100% guranteed safe. On the Yahoo message group if you find the e-mails overwhelming your computer I suggest the 'no e-mail' option which you can update in your profile on yahoo and then just go to the homepage to read the happenings. A number of people sign up and then shy away when they start getting a stream of ice related e-mails and that shouldn't deter you from having access to the site and the information.

One thing you shouldn't miss this year the northeast is going to be host to the DN Worlds providing we can find suitable ice. This will normally take place in Burlington VT as they have the biggest ice aside from Lake Winnie. A total of 150-200 DN's could show up from all over the world for this event which will take place the first week of February if I remember correctly.

[Tomcat]

supose it is hard to make a case for boats other than a DN, but here is a better one if you aren't inclined to racing:

http://members.tripod.com/~Icester_Iceboats/

[jeffsod]

Here's a new iceboating website that has a great page on building iceboats:

West Michigan Ice Yacht Club

http://www.wlyc.org/wmiyc.htm

http://www.wlyc.org/wmiyc_build_boats.htm

Have never seen an icester but if you want protection from wind chill it looks like you will get it with that design.

[gert]

can I stick my 70 sqft lug rig on a ice boat and have it perform reasonably well (not lookin to break any spead records here; this actualy looks like a dangerous sport)

[Dan McCosh]

The problem with cobbling up a rig or hull for any ice boat is that the loads involved are enormous compared to most boats on soft water. It' s all leverage--starting with the pressure of a sail at 60+ mph, more or less the takeoff speed of a small plane. There is no "give", and all that loading compresses the spar and hull with thousands of pounds of force. By the time a runner lifts, the whole boat is under enormous strain. I've watched a mast blow apart in compression, reducing it to matchsticks in an instant. Runner planks crack, hulls break, etc. Oddly enough a rigging failure is kind of quiet, as the rig falls over softly. Anyway, the previous comments about the hazards of the potential speed (We clocked one at 117 mph on a measured mile) are even more applicable to the need for some thoughtful engineering. A proven design is the way to go to get started.

[jeffsod]

I've watched a mast blow apart in compression, reducing it to matchsticks Yum, yeah what he said. I have a beautiful now two piece carbon fiber DN mast that experienced a catastrophic failure last February in gusty NW winds. Should have eased the sheet about ten seconds earlier. Doh!

If you want to experiment with rigs look for a fully battened windsurfering sail and mast. They can be had cheap enough. There are a couple of guys in NH that have built some one of's using those for rigs and get around quite nicely. (Hulls are basic enclosed rectangular boxes.)

In case you don't know the runner planks are usually Ash top and bottom (I think 5/16 for a DN) with a lighter core like spruce all glued together with epoxy.

[gert]

check this out:
http://iceflyer.com/video/video.html

[ 11-26-2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: gert ]