Bristol channel pilot cutter lines?

[peter s]

In the November 1997 issue of Classic Boat there was an article on a reproduction of a small pilot cutter...."Eve of St Mawes".I thought she was/is quite lovely,a very good interpretation of a famous type.Does anyone know where I could get hold of lines for a small pilot cutter?

[Mitchel Larsen]

Lyle Hess or Paul Gartside might be bit of a start.

[rbgarr]

The lines (no table of offsets) of Lyle Hess's design TALEISIN are shown on p. 24 of Larry Pardey's book, 'Details of Classic Boat Construction: The Hull', published by Norton. I'm building a half model of the boat now.

[paladin]

Depends on your intentions with the lines. Mr. Hess is now nearly totally blind and resides in a Home in California. His daughter and son-in-law advertise his plans periodically in woodenboat. They will not supply anything, not a single sheet of drawings or even a replacement drawing unless you purchase the entire package.....and once you purchase they will not supply a single replacement drawing unless you pay the full plans set price. Also there are several errors in the table of offsets and at other dimensional places.
Are you intending to build a model or a boat or........?

[TomRobb]

Kind of makes you wonder what the kids will do with all the stuff, all the results of your work after you die.

[Moray MacPhail]

The guys who built "Eve" are Luke and Sarah Powell, who can be contacted on +44 1326 373645

[reddog]

I have always admired the Lyle Hess cutters.Back in the 80's I purchased study plans,from Mr.Hess,for the 24ft. and 30ft. cutters.Both sets contained the lines,sail plans and a complete spec. list for materials.Just missing the table of offsets and construction details.Quite a feast for $10.00 each.This resulted in some correspondance between us in which I found him to be a gentleman.Very helpful with suggestions about construction and not just trying to sell a set of plans.No boat resulted but he did inspire me to take a shipwrights course to gain experience.I find it disheartening that his daughter and son-in-law have to be so mercinary with the plans but I'm sure they have their reasons.Perhaps Mr. Hess' generosity with lines plans and construction information was taken advantage of by less than scrupulous builders.
The table of offsets should always be checked for accuracy.Even Mr. Herreshof was known to make a mistake or two.
I believe Wooden boat Mag. also ran an article on the Hess cutters.Check the search engine for back issues.They also did a review of one of the Gartside cutters.Good luck.

[htom]

http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=1383

Three thumbnails on the righthand side of the page give you larger lines drawings (no offsets.)

Paul's drawn some lovely BCC's.

[paladin]

I had numerous telephone conversations with Mr. Hess when he was still living at home and after I purchased the plans for the 40.footer. I could not find the drawings for the mast hardware and I called the daughter for a duplicate sheet and spoke to her and her husband, who were very abrupt and not very pleasant. This prompted me to enter all data in the computer, fair the lines, redraw several frames etc, and recalculate all the stuff for the mast, then used suggestions from other sources on the mast hardware. I then made a complete set of drawings of details to finish the boat, which Hess did not supply with the 40 foot plans.

[peter s]

Thanks everyone......but what I'm looking for is a Bristol Pilot Cutter.....not a Lyle Hess cutter [much as I admire Mr Hesse's work].Thanks Mr Macphail for "Eve" s builders number.Does anyone know of a an archive of traditional,non Hesse,designs......perhaps taken off old cutters from last century?

[reddog]

paladinsfo;
That is unfortunate.My only dealings with Mr. Hess was correspondence by mail and quite agreeable.I'm sure if he were able your situation would have been more positive.
In defence of designers some are notorious for leaving the details up to the builder.You get the offsets and sail plan and the rest is up to you.Others such as LFH are noted for the detail of their designs including all parts or the rigging.
A 40 ft. cutter is a lot of boat.Do you have any pics?
All the best.

[reddog]

Peter;
Try <www.coveyisland.com>.This is the site for Covey Island Boatworks in Petite Rivere,Nova Scotia.John Steele, the owner has an authentic BCC,The Marguarite T,which he totally rebuilt a few years back.I believe it is around 52 ft. in length.This company specializes in strip/composite construction and has constructed a number of 40ft. BCC models.One for the author of Hand,Reef+Steer(?),Tom Cunliffe.My apoligies for the spelling.They may have a lead for you and no I don't own stock in the company.
Good luck.

[Stephen]

Peter -
I get the sense that you are after a smaller vessel than 40 feet.
Most of the original Bristol Channel Pilot cutters were typically in the 49 foot + range on deck.
A few smaller boats with transom sterns were built as well. One typical of this smaller version was the 38 foot 'Dyarchy' built by Cooper at Pill in 1901. The boat has long since gone, but you can still buy 'study-plans' for it from the Greenwich Maritime Museum in the UK (they also have a website -try a search). These are only sufficient to build models from though.
The 'Eve of St. Mawes' , like the Hess, Gartside, Giles and many others, are only interpretations on the type. These designs have also borrowed traits and been influenced from other commercial craft such as fishing boats and Quay Punts. Many of them are fine vessels and carry high reputations for seaworthiness, comfort, beauty, etc.
But I hesitate to call them true Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters.
For further reading try Peter Stuckey's "The Sailing Pilots of the Bristol Channel" - still available in it's second printing.

[Hesp]

The last time I was in my local bookshop http://www.rarebooksandberry.co.uk/ they had a copy of Peter Stuckey's "The Sailing Pilots of the Bristol Channel".

For the last 5 or 10 years an authentic BC pilot cutter has been undergoing a very slow restoration at Porlock Weir on the Bristol Channel. A couple more are being restored professionally at Gweek Quay Boatyard. Even the most casual inspection will reveal that these three boats are very different shapes and sizes.

You might find the lines of an original pilot cutter at the Greenwich Maritime Museum or a museum in Bristol.

Moray Macphail (a few posts back) can supply fittings for boats like this.

[This message has been edited by Hesp (edited 02-01-2001).]

[peter s]

thanks Stephen.....your about right!Thats the reason "Eve" appealed so much, she is of a size that I can conceive of building ,I would also would have real problems getting a bigger boat out of my shed ....down 9 km of winding road and into the river!

[peter s]

thanks Stephen.....your about right!Thats the reason "Eve" appealed so much, she is of a size that I can conceive of building ,I would also would have real problems getting a bigger boat out of my shed ....down 9 km of winding road and into the river!

[Stephen]

Peter - If you like the 'Eve of St. Mawes' there are a number of other vessels in a similiar class as her.
Check out the 'Chloe May' - she has appeared in a past issue of Classic boat.
Also look into designs by Nigel Irens. He has designed a similiar vessel recently ('Zanna' I think they named her) and also designed the boats coming out of Covey Island Boatworks. He regularly advertises in Classic Boat magazine too.
For more info on the original cutters check out a website run by the Bristol Channel
Pilot Cutters owners assoc. called "the Wave."


[This message has been edited by Stephen (edited 02-01-2001).]

[Smacksman]

Can't help with lines of a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter but i have lines of a Colne Oyster Smack by Stone 1909 on my site
http://www.alberta-ck318.freeserve.co.uk/download.htm

for free download. They are in .dxf format so you can make your own offsets but be aware that they never worried too much about perfection - as long as the strakes would lay on the frames. A lot of finishing by eye.
Good luck.

[Thad]

In the Stuckey book there are the lines of a couple of boats including one that is 41 feet long.

[DougWilde]

Peter,

You may wish to look at a copy of "The Chatham Directory of Inshore Craft: Traditional Working Vessels of the British Isles", ISBN 1 86176 029 9.

Page 186 has Bristol Channel Pilot craft, including hull lines for "Herga", 41'10" LOA. The caption for the lines indicate they came from the National Maritime Museum, Coastal Craft Collection.

This is a wonderful book. Profusely illustrated with period photographs and line drawings. And, as noted above, they cite the source of the material. A bit expensive to buy, but if you like Iain Oughtred's designs or the boats featured in Water Craft or Classic Boats, you'll love this book.

Doug Wilde

[peter s]

Thanks everyone, the information provided is excellent,especially the book references.

[Bob Cleek]

Peter, you get extra credit points for recognizing that Lyle Hess' cutters are NOT "Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters." They have their charm, no question about it. His prototype cutter, "Renegade," passed through my hands very, very, briefly and I am pretty familiar with them. They have something of that "look" but nothing close to the traditional BCPC lines.

If you are looking for a BCPC "type" that is much closer to the original models, and in sizes more suited to today's yachting, check out LaurentGiles.com, the Laurent Giles design firm's website. They have a number of the type, beginning with Hiscock's Wanderer II and the Vertue's through the magnificent "Dyarchy" of which a good pic was recently posted here in the miscellaneous section. I've done business with Giles and own a Vertue. I can vouch for the fact that they will not be nasty on the phone and will provide complete highly professional design materials for a very reasonable price. Their website is worth a look for their stock plans section alone. They've been designing this type of boat since the early twenties.

[Stephen]

Personally I wouldn't say Giles' Dyarchy or Vertues are any closer to the real BCPC's than the Hess cutters, but I know that Mr. Cleek has a weak spot for the Dyarchy. Still - all beautiful boats from that firm.
I did some searching and found this link to Nigel Irens for you. Enjoy!
http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/

[Bob Cleek]

You are right, Stephen. The Vertue-Dyarchy line isn't a real BCPC either. I'd say they are closer to the BCPC's than Hess' cutters, though. Hess' cutters are far beamier and of much shallower draft, proportionately, than the BCPC's. The early Giles designs are closer to the BCPC's "plank on edge" profile. I think the problem posed by a BCPC yacht is size. The deep, narrow hulls of the BCPC's don't provide much in the way of accommodation space until you get above 45 or 50 feet in length. If you want a somewhat smaller BCPC type with any usable room below, you start moving away from the original lines. Actually, the Vertues have been described as closer to the Itchen Ferry smacks than the BCPC's, I believe. I'd sure say that they are closer to the type than Hess' boats, though. I remember Renegade, which was the prototype for the Serrafin design, really had nothing for room below but a cuddy cabin. "Hands and knees headroom!" Being familiar with her gave me a whole new appreciation for "Around the World in Serrafin!" Lynn and Larry must really get along well! LOL... The depth of the Vertue, on the other hand, with only a foot more on deck, allows for full standing headroom just about the whole length of the accommodation beneath the cabin top. You get into a 46' Dyarchy, on the other hand, and you have room below for an indoor basketball court!

[Stephen]

"I know that Mr. Cleek has a weak spot for the Dyarchy."
I guess what I really should have said is that "I have a weak spot for the real BCPC's."

[Bob Cleek]

Stephen, weaknesses like ours are nothing to apologize for! LOL

[TonyH]

There was a good article on Bristol Pilot cutters in Model Shipwright magazine some years back, including lines. I can dig out it out and fax a copy to anyone interested?? Also, there is a well known French pilot cutter (from Le Havre?), the name of which escapes me right at this moment, which also has lines published in Model Shipwright (same offer applies!) and I think has a book written about her, too. I'll remember the name as soon as I log off!

Cheers

Tony

[paladin]

Peter,
I attempted to E-mail you the lines drawings, interior accomodations and some details on Tana Mari as attachements but your e-mail was returmed by postmaster....but if the next one goes through it is just for some reference. John Steele and crew do excellent work at Covey Island, and T.K. Atkinson and sons of Browns Bay, Auckland built my last boat. The old Tana Mari was build pretty much to Lyle Hess design as indicated.....it has been sold and the boat whose drawings I have sent are the new Tana Mari (Lonely Wind). The keel stem, etc are laminated Honduras Mahogany, the hull is strip planked fir with mahogany veneer over and 3 layers of Xynole and epoxy, with CPES throughout. This is just for reference. Somewhere I have the drawings for Renegade and other Hess boats.....as pseudo BCPC's. If I find them before I go back to the middle east I will forward them for information and edification.
Regards,
Chuck

[Stephen]

The French cutter is "Jolie Brise" - she recently won the 'Tallships 2000'. She is a big boat though - used for Sail Training.
Tony - I would be interested in that article as I have a study on-going on this type of craft.
Fax # is (403)271-5479. Thanks...

[TonyH]

Stephen

Well done - Jolie Brise it is! Why couldn't I extract that from the memory?

The article should land in your fax tray sometime in the next day or two.

Cheers

Tony

[Bruce Keefauver]

For all of you Cutter Cranks out there; check out the February issue of Classic Boat which has two articles on Falmouth Quay Punts (well strictly speaking maybe not always rigged as cutters, but close counts). However don't forget the results of the first America's Cup when an American pilot boat smoked the Brits! (... "but Madam there is no second" LOL)

[Stephen]

Tony - Thanks so much for faxing me the info on Hilda. Much appreciated. Thanks for your time... Stephen

[TonyH]

No worries, Stephen. I hope the fax copy was reasonably legible. I see it's sparked off a couple of "further lines of enquiry" in the Resources part of the Forum. Good stuff!

There is actually a couple more such articles, which I'll fax off later today. Beautiful models, aren't they?

Cheers

Tony

[ACB]

Well, I have sailed on real Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. Do not confuse, even momentarily, with anything by Lyle Hess.

There are quite a few drawings of real Bristol pilot skiffs (they were always "skiffs" to the men who sailed them) available; a very good place to start would be the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Owners' Association website...

http://www.thewave.org.uk

In fact the Association has been actively collecting drawings.

It must be understood that only one skiff was ever built from paper plans, drawn by a naval architect; this was the "Faith", designed by Harold Clayton of Penarth. A particularly nice cutter, very suitable to be built as a yacht. She had a separate owners cabin; an unusual luxury, and external ballast. The plans are extant.

All the others, every single one, was built from a half model, so all the drawings that exist are lines drawings taken off the hull of the boat as built, with general arrangement of construction drawings and scantlings built up from measured dimensions on the boat. Note that with the exception of the Faith all have/had internal ballast only. Usually iron pigs cemented into the bilge, with the cement carried up in the bays between the frames as far as the bilge stringer, and extra pigs laid on top.

I think that the idea of building a real one is a good plan; remember that these were working boats and were built fishing boat style, not yacht style. Pine planking fastened with iron dumps.

Michael Verney, the author of "Complete Amateur Boat Building", drew a very complete set of drawings for amateur construction of a yacht closely on the lines of one of Hambly's skiffs, almost certainly, from inspection, the black Cariad (not the same boat as the white Cariad) and I dare say these plans are available from him/ his publishers. This would be an authentic pilot cutter built the traditional way, not an interpretation a la Giles or Burnett. I like the Giles boats and I really like Ed Burnett's boats, but they are interpretations.

Good luck!

[Stephen]

I agree with Andrew! I too have sailed aboard the real thing and there is no comparison.
Worthy of mention - the 'Carlotta' , similiar to the 'Faith' in design, also had shared internal and external ballast. She also is claimed to have been the first vessel built with hollow spars. She is still around today.

I am currently compiling information on the 49 foot 'Hilda' for eventually turning into actual construction plans. A long process....

[Peter Sibley]

I 've found a very interesting site,it's the homepge of the builder of "Eve of St Mawes",the cutter I mentioned when starting this thread.The builder ,Luke Powel,has finished his second interpretation of a BCPC and I think she's just beautiful,42' on deck,7' draught ,doubled sawn frames at 16" centres,1/2 inside,1/2 outside ballast and built to a good workboat standard .She really looks like the real thing![to my uneducated eye......I expect plenty of comment]Her name is "Lizzie May" and the site is .....workingsail.com Sorry, I don't know how to post a url [advice would be welcome!]It,s not the easiest site to find without a link {sorry] but well worth looking for.

[TonyH]

Hi Peter

The website is www.workingsail.tripod.com (http://www.workingsail.tripod.com) -
good looking boat, looks very salty and authentic, and beautifully built - they have the lines on the website too, very public-spirited!

Now if only I could generate this much interest in pearling luggers!

Cheers

Tony