My Next Fantasy

[Big Red]

Thought I would ask the experts... ;)

I have been thinking of building a small sail boat. Would like it if I could get some advice on designs.

The requirements go something like this:

* LOA 16'-19'

* Beam 7' (definitely under 8' anyway).

* Would have to be a swinging C/B, not a dagger.

* Only one stick, I like the look of a gaff rig, but for a non-sailing gumby like myself, would a Bermuda/Marconi rig be better (and whats the difference between those two anyway?). Not sure I like the look of laced sails, but if they're easier/simpler to rig off the trailer...

* Not too fussed on a cabin or berths, but a little dry storage area might be good. For the camping gear etc.

* Have to have a spot for an outboard, but I'm ok with it being mounted on the transom. Would consider a well, but are they worth the effort to build? Do they affect the sailing ability?

* Have to be trailerable, and made from ply. Cold molding might be an option. But a hard chine might be easier/ quicker, no? I am not against lapstrake, but I am not sure I could execute it.

A few other things, I would like a reasonably traditional look, I don't want to be hanging from a trapeze. A plumb stem would be nice. Ability to handle a chop, I mean how often is it glassy? Umm, lets see, what else? Hmmm, that might be about it ;)

Cheers, Red.

[Bruce Taylor]

You'll have lots to choose from.

I'll get things started with John Welsford's Pathinder. It's a lap/ply boat, but John's method is not too challenging for an inexperienced builder. He estimates 225 hours to build.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/pathfinder/pathfinder.gif

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/j w/pathfinder/index.htm (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/pathfinder/index.htm)

[ 04-08-2004, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Peter Lyons]

You can go check out some of Iain Oughtred's designs, which include many fine sailboats in your target size range, at:

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/boatsearch.asp

But if you want to hear about all his latest, I understand it's best to get in touch with him personally at:

Iain Oughtred, Boat Designer
Struan Cottage, Bernisdale
Isle of Skye, Scotland IV51 9NS

Ph. # 01470 532732

Another comes to mind that I really like:

http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_penobscot17.html

Also, look for my recent thread entitled "rowing/sailing plans for 6" in this forum. A number of people offered valuable advice on boats similar to what you're looking for.

[Garrett Lowell]

Here's (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm) my entry. It meets most of your requirements. Not a bad looking boat, either.

[John Bell]

Chebacco!

http://www.instantboats.com/images/chebacco3.gif

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2000/Chebacco-1.jpg

Meets every one of your criteria except the single stick. The mizzen is pretty small though, at about 35 square feet. It's supposed to be cut dead flat and used as an "air rudder" to balance the helm (the boat is reputed to be able to steer itself with the wind forward of the beam.) I've sailed a similar rig once before and found that in practice you don't have to fool around with the mizzen very often at all.

The mizzen is also useful as a riding sail at anchor to prevent her from sailing around on her rode.

http://www.instantboats.com/chebacco.html
http://www.chebacco.com

[ 04-08-2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Paul Gartside's #128 meets most of your criteria (no cuddy, but I imagine it has a bit of stowage under the foredeck). Clinker/ply construction.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/cat.php#dinghies

See also his Jessie, #113.

[ 04-08-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Wayne Jeffers]

Red,

A couple of years ago, I started a thread titled "Small Trailerable Cruisers" that brought forth a lot of designs that would meet your criteria. Try the search feature.

After sailing Elisabeth Grace, I can verify JB's thought that a mizzen on a yawl rig is no bother at all while sailing.

Steve Redmond's Elver is now available again. http://www.sredmond.com/elver.htm Another yawl rig.

Another design that has come to my attention recently is the Atkin Wild Onion. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/WildOnion-1.gif

It was designed for batten seam, but can be built in plywood. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/WildOnion.html

For those who prefer a gaff sloop, you can swap the rig from the flat-bottomed Red Onion without fanfare.

Or browse the other Atkin designs. http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/

Wayne

[JimD]

Have a look at Sam Devlin too, and Glen-L has several plywood designs as well. Yes, hard chined plywood will be easier to build and go together with a lot less fuss than a cold mold hull.

PS - Here's Mystic Seaports Orgin of Sea Terms on bermuda/marconi:

1 The early name for "CW" (continuous wave) radio, its equipment and techniques. It got its name, lest we forget, from Guglielmo Marconi, the Nobel Prize winning inventor. 2 The modern sailboat rig and its major sails. The term first applied to the vast array of standing rigging of the great gaff-rigged racing cutters, and no doubt related to their similarity to a radio antenna mast. The term has since become associated with the Bermda rig, firs seen in the US on Long Island Sound in 1895...

[Keith Wilson]

Another vote for Phil Bolger's Chebacco here. There are several versions - taped-seam sheet plywood as shown above, and ply lapstrake. there's also a larger version, and one with an ugly but functional pilothouse with big windows. There's a place behind the mizzen mast specifically designed for a small outboard. Don't be intimidated by the yawl rig; it's not hard at all and very nice once you get used to it. I'd build the lapstrake version if it were my project. It's not much harder than sheet ply, and there's MUCH less sanding. Pretty, too IMHO. Here's a couple more pictures to fuel boat lust.

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Jerome-1.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~w.serjeant/dinghy/dinghy_files/guestp_files/chebacco.jpg

[ 04-08-2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[John Bell]

One more gratuitous Chebacco photo: Tim Smith's LARK with nine(!)aboard...

http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/ch245.jpg

[Venchka]

Karl Stambaugh at Chesapeake Marine Design has nice boats in this size range. His Catbird, Meadow Bird and Windward series might appeal to you.

[Big Red]

Wow, I must have stumbled into the "Chebacco Builders Home Page" by accident... :D

I like the idea of not sanding so much. Perhaps clinker is the way to go. How do you glass over the outside of a clinker hull? I mean I have had troubles before getting the cloth to follow the contours. Doesn't it lift up from the join between the strakes for you guys too? :( Please share that secret with me! :confused:

Hey didn't someone forget to mention the Haven 12.5?

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Big Red:
How do you glass over the outside of a clinker hull? You don't! You just seal up the end grain with googe, dab on some paint, and you're done.

If I were building one, it would the clinker version. I'd also very seriously consider using 1/2" Crezon MDO for the strakes.

Yeah, I'm enthusiastic about the design. For that I'll make no apologies. I think they are very handsome craft. And they have proven to be quite capable little vessels as well.
smile.gif

[Venchka]

Originally posted by John Bell:
You don't! You just seal up the end grain with googe, dab on some paint, and you're done.

If I were building one, it would the clinker version. I'd also very seriously consider using 1/2" Crezon MDO for the strakes.

smile.gif No fiberglass on glued lap plywood! The MDO idea is appealing, too.

[ 04-08-2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Big Red]

What! :eek:
You don't use glass?! What holds it together? Surely not that thin strip of glue? And they can trailer alright with that kind of hull? Geez :confused:

And whats this 1/2" Crezon MDO for the strakes thingamabob? Cripes, the more I learn about bots the less I know ;)

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Big Red:
Cripes, the more I learn about bots the less I know ;) Yep, I prove that every day.

I can only speak for one boat, mine, about glued lap plywood and NO! fiberglass. The "planks" overlap 3/4" (18-19 mm) and are stuck good with thickened epoxy. Over 3,000 miles (4,800+ kms) on a trailer so far and no problems. If you are still worried about it, a few designers, John Welsford and Arch Davis for sure, add stringers at the laps. Bulletproof for sure and some say it's overkill.

[ 04-08-2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[John Bell]

MDO stands for medium density overlay. It is characterized by a paper overlay on one or both faces. The paper is a very heavy, strong, and smooth substance, set on the surface in a phenolic resin. The cores are typically fir and assembled void free. It was originally created for highway signs. It accepts paint very well, it is quite smooth and fair, no sanding required, and it isn't going to check, ever. It's been used in boatbuilding for a long time. A lot of lap ply runabouts were built out of here in the US before the advent of glass composites.

"Crezon" is a brand name for a good grade of MDO plywood.

[Venchka]

Olympia Panels "Signal" MDO is another said to be quite good. They offer it at 5/16" which is good for smaller boats.

[JimD]

I'm building a plywood epoxy glued lapstrake catboat dinghy and it will be fiberglass sheethed. The easy way to do it is to fiberglass the full sized sheets of plywood before you cut out the strakes. You could always glass the planks after cutting but its more work for probably nothing gained in the long run. A light weight FG cloth, say 4oz saws very easily and actually can make sawing and fairing easier because the sheeth will prevent any chipping or splintering of the plywood.

[Peter Lyons]

Okay, I have to ask... what does it mean for plywood to "check"?

[Leon Steyns]

Peter,

Checking means that small cracks develop. As far as I know, this is the case for fir ply only. I use okoume and never experienced checking (so far).

As for Big Red, I'd like to enter another contestant (or two):

http://www.boatplans-online.com/prodimages/CV16_300.jpg

Bateau.com Caravelle (CV16) (http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=CV16)

or

http://www.boatplans-online.com/prodimages/CK17_250.jpg

Bateau.com Cat Ketch Expedition Cruiser (CK17) (http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=CK17)

I'm building the Caravelle, which is a redesigned Jean-Jacques Herbulot daysailer from Brittany, France.

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[Edited: Oops! The CK17 has a daggerboard... :rolleyes:
But you could build a swinging CB instead. :D ]

[ 04-09-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Leon Steyns ]

[garland reese]

I'd offer an endorsement for the Chebacco too! I like the lapstrake version. The original was cold molded. On the smaller end of your spectrum is the MeadowBird, as mentioned above. Meadowbird has been a favorite of mine for a long time. Though only 16 feet, she has the look of a larger design. The cabin can be built as a hinged top for extra headroom when anchored. Karl Stambaugh is offering plans and kits for this boat, and is now offering a glued lap ply kit, with a yawl rig..........now Meadowbird is tempting me all over again.

I also like the Cape Cutter 19 from Dudley Dix
http://www.dixdesign.com/Quest%20launch.jpg
cape cutter link (http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm)

Meadow bird

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/mbird.gif

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/mb_lapstrakekit.gif

[ 04-09-2004, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[Boomkin Joe]

Meadowbird again:

http://members.shaw.ca/brad.clarke/boats/futurepics/MeadowBird2.jpg

Wow, quite a yachty look for such a nutshell!

Yet they recommend the ballasted version for seagoing trips.
There's the question of the practicability of lead ballasting for amateurs.
I'll humbly admit to be lacking experience with this.

[ 04-09-2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Beachcomber ]

[Keith Wilson]

What!
You don't use glass?! What holds it together? Surely not that thin strip of glue? And they can trailer alright with that kind of hull? Normally one doesn't use fiberglass on a small plywood lapstrake hull, and they hold together just fine, thank you. I've built two, plus three lapstrake cradle boats out of 1/8" ply (and if you don't think they get hard use, you've never seen a four-year old "playing boats"). Consider that each lap joint forms a double-thickness stringer the length of the hull, and that the epoxy glue line is as strong as the bond between the layers of the plywood. You can certainly break one, but it probably won't be at the plank laps. In fact, the distribution of stresses is a lot better than with a mechanically-fastened boat - no stress concentrations around the rivets.

One sometimes puts a layer of glass on the garboards for abrasion resistance, and some folks like to glass the whole panel in advance, although that seems like an awful lot of work - it's usually done on larger boats.

Now, glued lapstrake construction pretty much requires that you use decent plywood. I wouldn't use ACX fir or BC pine construction-grade stuff, although you can get by that with in building methods that use a lot more goop'n'glass. I'd say MDO at minimum, but one of the various "mahogany" types (Okoune, Sapele, Meranti, Khaya) would be better, although more expensive.

What I like about building lapstrake is that the plywood is already flat and smooth, and somewhat self-fairing, so no large-scale sanding is needed. One can clean up epoxy drips with amazing ease using a heat gun and scraper. I hate the drudgery of finishing surfaces, and glued lapstrake lets me do more of the kind of work I enjoy.

The money spent on epoxy is also quite small compared to other "modern" building methods. I like System 3's T-88 epoxy. It's a thick 1:1 mix that is only good for glueing; no fillers, no precoating with unthickened stuff, just mix it up and slather it on.

There are two standard reference books that I'd recommend: Tom Hill's "Ultralight Boatbuilding", and Iain Oughtred's "Clinker Ply Boatbuilding". I favor Tom Hill's method myself, where the plank shapes are defined by stringers on the building mold long before you ever cut into that $75 sheet of plywood.

[ 04-09-2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[JimD]

... some folks like to glass the whole panel in advance, although that seems like an awful lot of work - It really isn't much work, I've done it on 3 small plywood boats. Nothing easier and quicker that glassing a sheet of plywood that's laying flat on the work bench. smile.gif

[Keith Wilson]

Nothing easier and quicker that glassing a sheet of plywood that's laying flat on the work bench. Except not glassing it at all. ;)

[JimD]

Except not glassing it at all. ;) Picky, picky, picky :D

But seriously, folks, for environmental reasons I'm trying to stay away from tropical hardwoods and use lumber harvested from our forests where we at least have some control over logging practices. This means doug fir plywood which benefits significantly from a thin glass sheeth before painting.

[Dennis Marshall]

Keith,

When using the Hill method for clinker ply boats, are the stringers notched into the frames/molds or no?

Dennis

[Keith Wilson]

When using the Hill method for clinker ply boats, are the stringers notched into the frames/molds or no?I don't (although I suppose you could), nor does Tom Hill according to his book. The molds are reduced by the thickness of the stringers. This allows you to fiddle with the plank shapes as defined by the stringers on the mold until they look right.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Dennis:

With your Green Island 15 plans in hand, is it feasible to make it a clinker instead of sheet ply hull? I have pondered this over the winter and just wonder how that would go together. Would you need to add (temporary?) stringers or would you just clamp ala Oughtred the one plank on top of the other?

I can't help but think, "Leave well enough alone" and yet clinker sure has an appeal to it. I have sketched out several different "looks" to the hull. One has a sheer strake molding strip with a badge at the bow. My idea is to help visually break up the slab of plywood so it is more appealing. Perhaps I fiddle too much...

[Dennis Marshall]

Scott, I think it could be done, although I am only 90% sure. I say this because I have a set of plans for an Atkin's sailing skiff Lark, which is lapstrake. He has another, Katelyn, which is the same hull only slabsided like the GI15. The difficulty, in this case, would be setting up a jig to hold the frames in their proper position, which would negate the "ease of construction" noted by Mr. Roberts. Nevertheless, if you can set the frames, transom and stem in their proper relationhip (i.e., heights from a baseline {I don't have my plans in front of me}) I think it would work and look rather good. Have you drawn a scale model and fiddled the number of strakes?

Finally, I think you could clamp them ala Oughtred without using stringers. That is what I would do.

Dennis

[Big Red]

It all sounds so easy when you read it smile.gif

So I knida like the idea of using battens to define the plank shapes. They wouldn't need to be too big though right? I mean, just enough to act as a guide, or do you fix (screw, nail, other than glue) the laps to them?

If you built a clinker boat in the normal fashion (ie: with no battens) would you have to add frames to it. I mean do you have to, or could you glass in other things like bulkheads for strength?

[Bruce Taylor]

If you built a clinker boat in the normal fashion (ie: with no battens) would you have to add frames to it. I mean do you have to, or could you glass in other things like bulkheads for strength?In Tom Hill's construction method, the stringers are not incorporated into the boat (as Arch Davis does it, w/ Penobscot 14). The stringers stay on the moulds, ready for the next hull. It's a good method to use if you're planning to build more than one boat to a design.

Iain Oughtred's clinker/ply boats don't use stringers at all. Being an impatient sort of guy, I like that. I'd rather fuss around with the actual planks than lavish attention on the jig.

Clinker ply boats can be built without frames, like this one:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid69/p934c47f45392a49fbf35ea670eba25d5/fba70d66.jpg

Some designs incorporate frames. They are generally epoxied into place. THe same goes for bulkheads -- epoxy, no glass.

[David Thompson]

Hey Red,
Don't listen to these wags... My man, you need a catboat! Single sail, easy to trailer, launch and rig; and they are beautiful boats. Check out the WB posts from our friend and craftsman Tom Kamila. He built a 15' Corvus, (designed by Whitholz) and strip planked it. What a fine lady! It is a beautiful boat even on the freaking trailer!

Catboats solve all the needs you stated and still manage to carry half the neighborhood. The reefpoints in a sail will allow you to sail in a variety of wind speeds. They are primo boats if you're looking for classy, traditional lines and great, comfortable sailing.

You ask, does he sell catboats...? Well, I'm so convinced with catboats that I am building the boat of my dreams, Moonshadow. This "awakening", about catboats came after years of wanting to build a Herrshoff designed Haven 12 1/2. The Haven is a beautiful boat, but appears to be a lot work to build. Plus they can't be as comfortable as a catboat. Now, please understand I'll be sailing on inland lakes and protected coastal areas so heavy weather was not a concern. But, for daysailing with the wife on a Sunday afternoon. Can't wait.

Now, to blow your mind... I have never owned or sailed a catboat!!! I have sailed and owned plenty of sloops from an O'Day 14, Sweet 16 to a Catalina 22, and I loved every one. But I'm building a catboat!!

Moonshadow will be 18' with a centerboard and will spend a lot of time on a trailer. I will strip plank her instead of using plywood. She will my first homebuilt boat, but I feel confident I can build her in 12 to 18 months.

Questions? Check out some of the catboat sites and organizations or read some of the books about catboats. Can't go wrong...

Dave

[Venchka]

David,

What size strips will you be using? How will you make them? Do you plan to edge nail AND glue the strips? What size & length nails are you planning to use? Or am I too early?

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
Picky, picky, picky :D

But seriously, folks, for environmental reasons I'm trying to stay away from tropical hardwoods and use lumber harvested from our forests where we at least have some control over logging practices. This means doug fir plywood which benefits significantly from a thin glass sheeth before painting.JimD,

What's wrong with exterior fir MDO? I've seen it priced less than A/B marine fir. It sure cures checking and no extra work for you.

[Venchka]

More fodder:

Great Pelican

Look in the Selway-Fisher catalog, oodles of candidates. Look at the Highlander.

[Big Red]

Hey Dave, couldn't find a site for this Whitholz guy, only a forum? Got a link?

I have had a look at some catboats though. A bit stubby looking. They look like they had run into something ;) Looks like they get beamy really quick huh? Must be that back curve in the stem.

Sorry Dave smile.gif They are tradition looking though. I must admit to knowing next to nothing about sails and rigs. I think it would be good to have a simple rig. But also one in which you have good performance (that sounds pretty obvious in rereading it).

I have had a look at some of the boats mentioned. The Glen L 17 is looking good at the moment. Thats not the only one though. The Winter Wren and the Arctic Tern looks awesome as well. What was that saying? Too many boats, not enough time??

[JimD]

What's wrong with exterior fir MDO? I've seen it priced less than A/B marine fir. It sure cures checking and no extra work for you. Honestly, I haven't a clue. Never used it. Its something I'll have to look into one of these days. smile.gif

[JimD]

The Glen L 17 is looking good at the moment. Thats not the only one though. The Winter Wren and the Arctic Tern looks awesome as wellI think you'll find there's a big difference here. The Glen-L boat will be much lighter, probably far less able to handle rougher conditions. The Devlin boats are significantly heavier, well ballasted pocket cruisers. I have my eye on Winter Wren too, for one fine day.

[JimD]

Hey Dave, couldn't find a site for this Whitholz guy, only a forum? Got a link? A lot of Witholz designs are offered through Ken Hankinson's website, boatdesigns. WB has one in the Store as well

[David Thompson]

Venchka,
My strips will be cypress, either 1/2" or 5/8" thick. I plan to buy random lengths and widths, then cut strips with my bandsaw. Edge fasteners have been a concern but I have decided not to use them. This will save a lot of time, as long as I can get good edge-to-edge contact while the epoxy cures. Of course I'll fill any gaps before I fair and fiberglass the exterior. The Selway Fisher book on strip planking is a good source of information.

Dave

[DougWilde]

For your consideration: Bessie Lee

http://dbwilde.home.comcast.net/BoatScans/BessieLee2.jpg

Also known as the Sinepuxent Skiff (Fig. 118 on page 330) in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft.

Bessie Lee is the example found at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. At 18'4" x 7'1" she fits your general dimensions. The cockpit is HUGE, lots of space for family and kids to play in. Built for the Bay, she can take the chop.

Yes, those are four holes for the two masts with sprit booms. You can fine tune and sail with one or two sticks, depending upon the weather.
And best of all, the plans are available from the Smithsonian for an incredibly nominal price.

Building is pretty simple and would be similar to a Windward 15. More of these need to be built.

Doug Wilde

[Paul Pless]

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=003225

This is as good a time and place to bump this thread.

Enjoy

[boatlover]

What does it mean to "bump" a thread ? (Yeah, I'm new to the forum, but I have been reading and writing on internet groups for 10 years, and never met the term before.)

To get back to BIG RED's original idea.

He wants a traditional looking, trailerable boat. He mentions a single stick, with a plumb stem.

Someone else suggested Paul Gartsides #128, and the "Jesse."

What about Gartsides #93 ?

LOD: 18 ft. Beam: 7 ft.
Gaff cutter rig, with jackyard topsail.
Two shrouds and a backstay.
Plumb stem, inboard rudder, transom.
Long bowsprit, double headsails.
No provison for auxiliary power, but .......

An add-on foot or so at the stern, designed to carry an outboard mounting bracket, with a trapdoor opening for the shaft .... worked as a more raked, extended transom, blended into the designed body plan .....

( Hm. Make her even more of a mini-PARTRIDGE ! )

and a lot less than a million $US ....

Do-able ?

Ed R

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by boatlover:
What does it mean to "bump" a thread ? (Yeah, I'm new to the forum, but I have been reading and writing on internet groups for 10 years, and never met the term before.)
RWhenever someone posts someone to a thread, it automatically goes to the top of the page (as this will automatically go to the top of Designs/Plans as soon as i click "Add Reply" so if someone feels a thread is sliding too far down the list they will "bump"it.

[Big Red]

Cool boats, thanks guys. Must admitt the task is now harder not easier ;)

After my earlier harsh words against catboats, I realised I must withdraw that feeling when I saw the Beetle Cat! I know its smaller than I asked for, but wow! What a cool little sail boat. As I said, harder, not easier.

So far its the Glen-L 17, the Beetlecat, the Haven 12.5, any dozen or so from Ken Hankinson's website (which dozen changes each time I visit), the Arctic Turn, the Surf Scoter, the Marshcat, the bloody list just goes on!

Anyway, thanks for all the confusion smile.gif