Plans for Boy Scout Canoe or Kayak

[Ken B]

I'm looking for plans to build a solo canoe or kayak to paddle the Colorado River this summer.
We need a low cost vessel that can carry each boy
and his gear for a 3 to 4 day journey.

[Tomcat]

It would be usefull to know what the weight of the boys in question is likely to be, and what the weight of gear will be.

Since I am not from that region, I would need to know what the conditions are like on the river: Flat water? Any portages? How much wind? How skilled are the paddlers?

What is the budget for the boats.

What kind of building skills are the kids likely to pessess.

Without knowing these kinds of things, One can't make a reasonable recomendation.

[Paul Scheuer]

Hi Ken: What a wonderful idea. You've come to the right place. I don't have a specific recommendation for you, but I'm sure some good plans will be forthcomming.

Since you're going to do multiples, designs that lean toward a substantial building form, with limited framing in the boats is a real possibility. There are some real nice glued lapstrake designs that would yield just what you're looking for. Lightweight, easy to build (once the form is done), durable, inexpensive, etc. And they look good.

Once you sort it out, keep us informed. There may be other groups that will follow.

[Steve Lansdowne]

The Lake Champlaign (sp?) Maritime Museum has a "teenagers build your own Chesapeake Light Craft MillCreek (I think it is) kayak in 3 weeks and then go on a 2 week on the water camping trip" event that they have done for a few summers, I believe. You might contact them about the logistics of doing this. When I visited there, a coed group of teens was each building their own kayak. It looked like a lot of fun. Undoubtedly at that age, half the fun was the coed part!

[Ken B]

Hi Guys,
We're going to paddle from Bullhead to Havasu on the Colorado, all flat water with little current.
Total weight should be some were around 170 to 200 pounds (boy & gear). The six hour canoe sounds like it will fit the bill. Where can I get plans? The boys want to use a double bladed paddle. Does any one know what length would be best for the six hour canoe?

[Mr. Know It All]

Ken B. ......What about the 6 hour canoe? Easy to build and fast and fairly inexpensive (around $150.00) Check out this link----> http://www.woodenboat.com/6hourc.htm
How come we never had cool Scout leaders like you when I was a Boy Scout? :D
I made the trip to Ely,MN. and the Charles L. Sommers canoe base in 1973 with the Scouts and we had to settle for aluminum Grumman 18 footers with 3 of us and our stuff packed into them. I still had a good time but drooled all over our guides wooden Old Town canoe. Best of luck to you on this project and welcome to the forum. smile.gif
Kevin in Ohio

[On Vacation]

Welcome and this guy is 120 dry and about 130 wet.
This is my type of post. smile.gif Talk about starting a youth on the right track!!!!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/pe98b0c5ca5abf9f22cf6a70b67445f70/fd5efcf7.jpg

[MikeV]

Ken

A few considerations before chosing a design. What type (class) of water will you be paddeling?
How much gear will each boat have to carry? You will need to install floatation, usually air bags. This is always important, but more so for an extended trip. Bear Mountain has a few good designs for tripping canoes. I don't know that they could be built inexpensively though. Of course that depends on your frame of reference.

[DerekW]

Hi Ken

Jim Michalak has done a few double paddle designs which might fit the bill, or there's Richard Frye's 'Yakoo' series at http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/projects/yakoo/index.htm

Derek

[imported_Conrad]

Hi- I've built several of the six hour canoes for and with kids- they should be fine! Search this site- there has been some discussion about adding a small skeg. I would do that if it's one boy per canoe- they do wander a bit, and if you're covering 4-5 miles a day or more, would make a huge difference in the ease of tracking and paddling.

Each boy should have a double paddle that fits his height and strength- experiment. I'd also think about putting short decks, maybe 30" to help contain any bouyancy bags or foam I'd hope you're planning on using. The skill level required to build should let each kid feel comfortable, and as though THEY built it, with only some "group guidance". Have a great time! smile.gif

[ 11-17-2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

[NormMessinger]

Ken, check out this: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292075019

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid17/p4b4afcb3c194716aa491fac2c5cd7b07/fdf6be23.jpg

--norm

[Ken B]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the great info. Yes we've had some great outings over the years. Wish I had time to tell you, but with only one computer and home due in the morning I'm getting kicked off in a few minutes. I'm going to order the book tomorrow for the six hour canoe, Thanks again! I would also like second option to show the boys, any ideas for a lapstrake? I've seen some stitch & glue designs that I really like, but I'm thinking that would be too much work with the size of group we have. Thanks again.
web-sites etc.

[imported_Conrad]

http://boatbuilder-online.com/free/cheapcanoe.htm

[cs]

Ken you can go to www.Bateau.com (http://www.Bateau.com) and download his canoe plans in the free section. Here is a direct link to the plans.

Cheap Canoe (http://www.boatbuilder-online.com/free/cheapcanoe.htm)

It is Stich & glue but goes together real quick and can be made from 2 sheets of 1/4" plywood.

Here is the one that I built.

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/D3/0F/12063187-2f0f-02580190-.jpg

It is the one on the right (as looking at the photo).

Chad

[mower]

Ken:

I just lead a goup of scouts through a similar project. We built six CLC 17 kayaks. My boys were an older group, aged 16 - 18 (Venturer). I posted a picture on the "My Wooden Boat" section of this website a few days ago. It was an extremely rewarding experience for the boys, both the building project and the expedition along the coast of Vancouver Island. The Mill Creek is a great idea for scouts. A CLC kayak is also not too difficult if your boys are venturer age. Let me know if have any questions about what worked, and what didn't with our project.

Paul

[NormMessinger]

In some respects the Cheap Canoe is a better choice than the Six-hour. Specifically it is not as high out of the water at stem and stern so it is not as likely to be blown around by the wind, and it has less rocker so it tracks better. However, I do not like to expose kids to much epoxy as one must with a stitch and glue. The Six-hour is better for kids in my opinion. It might build little faster as well since one does not have to wait for epoxy to cure.

Laura, 14, did fine with the Cheap Canoe, however.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid26/p2d803c9dbdab4b995fa70422cacfd464/fd859e34.jpg
See her building at http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid26/p2d803c9dbdab4b995fa70422cacfd464/fd859e34.jpg .

--Norm

[Tim B]

I've never tried this so take the suggestion with the appropriate amount of salt. Why not modify the cheap canoe plans to convert it away from stitch and glue. Add a frame in the middle and a chine log to the outside of the sides. That way the frame does not have to be notched for the chine log and it goes together alittle faster. My neighbor up the street builds duckboats that way. They don't look as elegant as when the chine log is inside, but the frame is simpler and the chine log makes a kind of bumper for the hull. He usually screws some of those metal corners for dry wall onto the chine logs for added durability.

tim

[cs]

I think if I was going to convert it I would put the chine log on the inside. Other than that I like what you say.

Chad

[NormMessinger]

You beat me to the question, Chad. What is the advantage of having the chine log outside other than uglyness?

Otherwise the lines of the Cheap Canoe could easily be converted to the Six-hour construction method, I should think

--Norm

[BradW]

I've paddled/rowed parts of the Green and Colorado, and in the flat water sections, wind was the the big factor, esp. when the canyons would funnel it. Paddling a whitewater kayak or an inflatable paddle raft was hard work, since they don't track worth a hoot. Some afternoons, it seemed like we were getting blown back UP the canyon.

Do the guys a favor, and get or modify a design to help tracking! Somebody mentioned a skeg or such to help a flat-bottom design. I would definitely second that.

For alternative suggestions, I just took delivery on a CLC kit to build a Sassafras 12 canoe for my 8 yr. old nephew's Christmas present, so he can have his own boat to go fishing w/ his dad, who paddles a plastic Loon kayak most of the time. This kit is a CLC proprietary "Lap-Stitch" form of glued lapstrake. It is very light, and seems quite stiff. They also make a 14' solo and a 16' tandem version. I am expecting the 12 to track pretty well for such a short canoe. The kits aren't cheap, but they are comprehensive, and the end result, at least in CLC's showroom (I went to their shop before buying), is quite nice. Maybe they would cut the Scouts a break on a bulk buy?

Here's the 12' that I'm going to build:
http://www.clcboats.com/images/sassafras1.jpg

And here's the 16' tandem (I didn't see the 14 on their website):
http://www.clcboats.com/images/clc52n_sass16.jpg

The issue of epoxy exposure is one I am concerned about as well, but at least the Lap-Stitch doesn't have fillets. I am going to glass the bottom though.

[DaBoss]

check out the "Birder" design and the simple canoe designs from Graham Byrnes.
b and b yacht designs (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/)
They are easy and quick to build. The Birder is a decked canoe. Not the cheapest to build, but they are nice and can be built quickly. You can put a skeg on the birders for increased directional stability. All the designs are for double paddles.

[ 11-18-2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: DaBoss ]

[NormMessinger]

The Birder hull looks a lot like "Sweat Dreams", book available from The WoodenBoat Store.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/p3fff9031c41763852019329bdb6e763e/fdbb960b.jpg

I declined to suggest it for the boy scout group because it requires the expensive version of plywood to be torchered into shape, thus: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291902377

--Norm

[Tim B]

Chad and Norm,

I agree that an outside chine log is an ugly thing to behold. However, it does make building easier. The frame does not have to be notched, hence it is more forgiving. The chine logs do not need to be tapered together at the bow and stern. Having the chine log on the outside allows it to be put on and then cut to length. Considering that this is a group of boys that are probably more interested in getting their boats in the water, rather than looking nice - it seemed like a good option. I'm always surprised when working with boys how getting the project done is so much more important to them than taking the time to do a really nice job. There are exceptions of course.

tim

[imported_Conrad]

Norm- have you built one of the tortured ply boats? Do you think it was worth the extra effort, and how did the construction go?

[NormMessinger]

Conrad, the proof is in the pudding: http://www.imagestation.com/ album/?id=4291902377 . I'm the old coot therein. The fat one is Easy Life, No. 2 son. It took us about a week to build but I did the finishing after he went home. The plywood cannot be 1 mm thicker than specified or it will break when bent but otherwise it is a pretty slick way to build in a hurry. Finishing takes longer if you want to fair out the taped seams.

--Norm

[imported_Conrad]

Norm- for some reason my computer and the image station site don't get along, probably something in the protective no pop-ups, no spam, no etc. software my lovely wife has loaded onto the network to help keep everyone "safe". :rolleyes: At any rate my attempts to access that site usually result in a re-boot. Oh well, I always thought they (tortured construction canoes) looked like a nice step up. I'll have to try one, and stick to your advice about ply thickness! Thanks.

[Rick Tyler]

If you are considering Jacques Mertens' Cheap Canoe, you might also consider his Nice Canoe. It is two feet longer, and built using the same methods. Each boat takes two sheets of 1/4" ply, and a little extra for butt blocks and miscellaneous. I was figuring 2.3 sheets per boat. (I am also planning a boat-building project for a Boy Scout troop, but I haven't picked the boat yet. My issue is that they might just have more fun cutting frames and fitting parts. Stitch and glue makes strong boats, but it is mostly cut, goo, scrape, sand, and paint. Not a lot of fun steps in the process, really.)

I was and am somewhat concerned about epoxy, too. After hashing this out in a couple of other forums, there seem to be strong opinions on both sides. The boys are 12 to 17 years old, and will be supervised by adults on an almost 1:1 ratio. With a strict glove-use and long-sleeve shirt policy I lean towards thinking epoxy is OK for an outdoor build. These are not eight-year-old Cub Scouts.

Would you make youngsters using epoxy wear respirators? The MSDS for System/3 and Interlux epoxies do not call for respirators, except when mixing in silica thickeners.

I bet you could talk Jacques into letting you build more than one boat per set of plans if it is for a school or Scout group. Tell him Nathaniel Herreshof sent you.

I am putting together a list of suggested simple boat-building projects for young people. I'll post it here when I finish it, and then get more feedback. For what it's worth, the same 10 or 12 projects come up whenever this question is asked.

... and yes, I do think building boats with a Boy Scout Troop of 70 boys borders on the insane...

- Rick Tyler

[ 11-18-2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Rick Tyler ]

[NormMessinger]

Conrad, are you using Internet Explorer? If so I don't know why it wont work. It will not work properly with Opera but does with IE and Netscape.

--Norm

[imported_Conrad]

Thanks, Norm. Beautiful boat- I'm going to try one. Check your email.

Conrad

[Ken B]

Hi Rick,
You mentioned Jacques Mertens "Nice Canoe". Is there a web-site? I like the Cheap Canoe over the six hour canoe because of the lower bow. I can see how it might have a tracking problem in the wind, I'm thinking about a retractable skeg or runners. Anyone with experience on how well this boat tracks?

[steve sparhawk]

Epoxy problems might be mitigated some if I believe what I see in the site for a supplier back East where I have spent some $.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com

Take a bunch of rocker out and cut down the ends of the 6-hour. Mine is too squirrely. Also put in a skeg if going to Powell.

(Man, that Messinger puts out some nifty boats)

[ 11-18-2002, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: steve sparhawk ]

[Rick Tyler]

The plans for Jacques Mertens' "Nice Canoe" (which is really more of a lightweight pirogue) are at Mertens Nice Canoe (http://www.bateau.com/plans/misc/NC16.php3) .

- Rick Tyler

[On Vacation]

Right now, my eyelids are swollen beyond belief from just scarfing plywood. Certain brands are worse than others. The most popular destroys me. But it can be bought at many of your local marine stores. The first boat that Norm built with chime battens and stems can be built with screws and Sikaflex or 5200 and forgo any epoxy. It will work just as good and no mixing and overseeing of proper stiring. Think about a project that will use this method.

I am sure Norm would not mind if you printed out the how to shots of the young lady working on hers in the imagestation for a study discussion with your group. Think about this or get your group together to preview this fine album done by the master of small craft for kids.

[ 11-19-2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[cs]

When I first started using my "cheap" canoe I had all kinds of problems getting it to track. The more I used it the less of a problem it was. Lets keep in mind though that this is the first canoe that I have ever been in. I've played around with the idea of adding a skeg and it would be simple enough.

BTW I've only been in one other canoe, and it is supposed to track like an arrow and I had problems with it.

Chad

[Rick Tyler]

Oyster,

I assume you are swelling closed from epoxy exposure. Sorry, man.

Bill Finch and Barry Hamilton built a D4 pram they call the Bat Boat (http://www.geocities.com/bfinch_2000/construction.htm) using F-26 construction adhesive instead of epoxy for the fillets. They cheated and put glass over the bottom, but it would be interesting to see if it would hold up on a kid's boat that is not going to see heavy use (or use more than 100 yards from shore).

I have no opinion on this, and don't plan to try it, by the way. It might be a substitute for 5200 as an adhesive/sealer with chine logs.

- Rick Tyler

[On Vacation]

Yes Rick, glue reaction to the ultimate right now. Having problems reading the dull screen, and sleeping from the burning. I haven't used any glue in over a year myself. But with this new honeydew project I started, I went out and picked up two gallons of the famous brand for convenince and really paying for it. I stopped using it five years ago for the very same reason.

One thought I had was that he could build one as a model and get use to doing this and it would give the kids something to see as a completed work and it would hold the initial enthusiasm with this age group.

I suggested the 5200 or sikaflex to forgo any glue. Some people have used the construction adhesive, but for the extra cost of about two tubes at the most, not worth the chance. There is about eight dollars difference the good stuff and you could end up with no glass and resin which really runs the cost and work up. Good primer and enamels will do just fine for this project, IMHO.

[ 11-19-2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[DutchRub]

Well- if it was me my plan would be to find an outfit who is unloading a bunch of dare I say it used Plastic canoes and get buy them. Theyll most likely be cheaper than the materials in a wood canoe and are virtually indestructable as well. If a kid punches a hole in his wood canoe on the once mighty Colorado you will probably be rethinking wood as a building material.

[NormMessinger]

Building is a major part of the adventure. No rocks in the section of the Colorado they are "shooting."

We used construction adhesive on the Six-hour. No need for the more costly marine stuff. Build cheap, involve everyone, have fun.

--Norm

[Rick Tyler]

Re: Leech F-26 Construction Adhesive

I just received a nice email response from a representative of this company. The relevant portion reads:

"Leech does not recommend the F26 product for boats. The legal wording is: while this product has proven it will work Leech does not promote or encourage using our F26 product immersed in water for any periods of time. There is no verbal or written guarantee when not used properly.

"Hope that answers your question. We have seen it work but people use it knowing there is no guarantee (Leech doesn't want to start replacing boats if you spring a leak!)."

Translated, I believe this means, "It works fine, but the boat business is an irrelevant market for us, and we don't want the hassles -- legal or otherwise. However (wink, wink) we know that people are using it that way but we will say 'I told you so' if your boat falls apart.'"

Sounds like a good cheap alternative, as Norm said, for a cheap boat.

- Rick

[imported_Conrad]

Oyster- I assume you're using West. Over the years I've developed sensitivity to the stuff too- the hardener is the problem. For what it may be worth in the future, I can use the 1:1 and 2:1 from www.fgci.com (http://www.fgci.com) without any reaction. It can sit on my skin even without problems, and you can hardly smell it. The data sheets suggest about 90% of the strength at almost half the cost, but you've got to plan ahead and mail order it!

[Gordy]

Ken,
I've built two of Graham Byrnes' Moccasins. (B&B Yacht Designs)

I think it'd be the perfect canoe for your scouts.

The finished 12 foot canoe weighs about 27 pounds. Although I used 4mm okume, I think perfectally good boats could be made from door skins. They might de-laminate after a year or two, but if they're sealed well there's no reason they wouldn't last.

I was really impressed with how easily they paddled.

Also, Graham has a design for a very inexpensive, lightweight, and easy to build double paddle. I think I'd use okume for the blades.

You might consider building the paddles first. They're not rocket science and might give the kids some confidence.

If you have someone with a bandsaw who can cut out the bresthooks and thwarts it could save quite a bit of time.

Best of luck.

[B. Darrah Thomas]

When I was a Boy Scout (20 Yr ago) we built these:

pdf format (http://www.troop37.net/Kayak_Plans-2000.pdf)

Took them on the Klamath for 7 days with the whole troop. A little more to build but great "Scout projects". :D

[Lewisboats]

Well, I designed a couple of boats specifically for cub scouts and boy scouts. The plans are free, and the building is very simple. I built the first in about a day and a half and the second in about 15-18 hrs work over a weeks time. CubCanu/ScoutCanu (http://lewisboatworks.com/html/cubcanu_a.htm)
My son loves his, and is constantly pestering me to get him to some water so he can use it.
Steve

[NormMessinger]

So, Ken, whatcha gonna do. Lots of great suggestions here, besides mine, eh.

--Norm

[imported_Conrad]

A final thought- often, for a small additional effort you end up with a significantly better boat. How about making it something the boys would be proud to show others, now, and in the future? Even for an eleven year old, an additional Saturday and $30 dollars can be the difference between a plywood box and a "canoe". While they'll start this experience as amatures, they end it as experienced builders and canoeists. If the design of their boats reflects a higher expectation, it will carry through the whole experience, will be more likely to be kept and cared for, and will speak more highly of their accomplishment and growth.

[ 11-22-2002, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

[TomRobb]

I think Conrad has a good point. People, kids too, often live either up or down to our expectations. BSA probably promotes living up to our expections.

[Paul Scheuer]

I'm with Conrad here. This shouldn't be a "throw-away" project. Build something that will last as long as the memory of the trip. They may have to do a little extra fund raising, and you may have to do a little more of the preparation and acquisition stuff with a "nice" design, but it will be worth it. You'll have our support.

Looking forward to seeing your trip report in Misc. -

[ 11-22-2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Paul Scheuer ]

[Ken B]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great advice! The Scouts met this week and the boys would like to do some fund raising and make something nice. There are some advantages to this as many of you have indicated.
One of the boys lives in a planned community with a private lake, he also has two younger brothers who will enjoy the labors of their older brother one day. So we may want to approach this project with more vision. Each summer we go out on a week long adventure. The first year we made five folding kayaks, we also rented some old Coleman canoes for the guys who waited too long to decide whether or not they were going to go. Anyway what a trip! We paddled the same section of the Colorado (Bullhead to Havasu), the afternoon tail winds were something else. The next morning we still had the tail winds so some of the boys made a sailing canoe with their paddles and a tarp. They had a great time! We still talk about that trip. We found out later that the tail winds were due to a winter storm that came though on June, most of the time you get head winds in the afternoon on that section of the river. A few years later I took a new group of boys (same section of river) and we spent half a day jumping off the cliffs at castle rock when we were done. More great memories. Every time they see the photos they want to go back. So here we are in 02 planning for 03 with a new group of boys. They've all heard the stories and want to live the adventure. The folding kayaks are little short on storage and the rented Colemans don't create the same great memories. If we could get the money, I would like to build a lapstak which is the design I know least about.

[NormMessinger]

Joy to you and your group, Ken. Please come back with pictures when you start building, and of the trip, for sure.

--Norm

[Gordy]

You know, I'd like to be involved in something like that!

Sounds like you have a better time than the kids do. We won't tell anyone though.

The lapstrike looks like a pretty boat. I think the moccasin would go together much quicker. I think the boat in Norm Messinger's post looks to me to be a Moccasin.

Check our Graham's website. You might give him a call and ask him about his paddle design.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/default.htm

[capt jake]

Now Gordy, I thought you were gone sailing???

Moored up for the night and all??

[Paul Scheuer]

Ken: Check the recent entries in "My WoodenBoat". A Venture Scout building project.

[ion barnes]

With regards to tracking problems with a canoe or kayak, I have found that it is a matter of weight distribution. If the center of gravity is ahead of the center of bouyancy, the boat will sheer off to a side despite of any corrections. I had trouble with several kayaks, and just by chance I put a couple of rocks in the stern and it made a real difference.

[PugetSound]

Rick,
Regarding the use of masks when building with epoxy..... the reason the MSDS doesn't require the use of (activated carbon) filtration is because most epoxies aren't that much of a health hazard when applying. The big important point to remember is that part of the MSDS which identifies the epoxy as a chemical irritant. It does not ID the epoxy as a carcinogen (at least not the ones I've seen) Translation: If you aren't already allergic to contact with epoxy, then continued contact with it will probably make you allergic!!!!!! This is the reason for the PPE (personal protection equipment) when applying it. The reason why you absolutely must wear a good dust mask (and goggles and gloves ect.) when sanding or cutting epoxy is because of the dangers of getting the stuff in your lungs. The fiberglass dust is also bad in this regard.

[mower]

Some good points on epoxy use by Scouts. I pondered this problem with the kayak project I did with my Venturer troop. In the end we went through more than 500 pairs of disposable gloves, and I forbid sanding epoxy at all. As you know, to get a perfect finish will require sanding the epoxy. Life is full of compromises and our kayaks don't have perfect finishes. That doesn't seem to detract from the satisfaction that the boys gained in creating something very useful and beautiful. I can't describe my satisfaction when my boys would beach thier six wooden kayaks on beach next to a bunch of fiberglass kayaks and see the pride in their faces as all the owners of plastic kayaks would compliment them on their fine boats.

[mower]

Some good points on epoxy use by Scouts. I pondered this problem with the kayak project I did with my Venturer troop. In the end we went through more than 500 pairs of disposable gloves, and I forbid sanding epoxy at all. As you know, to get a perfect finish will require sanding the epoxy. Life is full of compromises and our kayaks don't have perfect finishes. That doesn't seem to detract from the satisfaction that the boys gained in creating something very useful and beautiful. I can't describe my satisfaction when my boys would beach thier six wooden kayaks on beach next to a bunch of fiberglass kayaks and see the pride in their faces as all the owners of plastic kayaks would compliment them on their fine boats. They really did turn out to be something the boys can be proud. If I was willing to spend time to figure out how to post photos I would include some.
Paul

[Paul Scheuer]

Those are your group's boats and group in My Wooden Boat #1815, right ? Nice job .

There are several threads on how to post pics. I'm no Geek, so I'll pass on the chance to give you my detailed version of the process. Basically, it involves you sending copies of your pics to someplace, like Sony's Imagestation, that's always open for business, and has tons of memory, then you reference the location using the "IMAGE" button below, so that whenever the thread is opened, Poof, the connection is made and Poof, the pic shows up.

[ 11-28-2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Paul Scheuer ]

[NormMessinger]

Instructions for posting pictures

Photo to be posted must be on the web and in a site that allows cross posting. Many Forum users use www.imagestation.com (http://www.imagestation.com) . This is a free site which seems to have unlimited storage, large picture size, and unlimited albums.

Upload your pictures to ImageStation and create your albums or leave the pics in the in box as you wish.
Pictures in ImageStation are displayed in three sizes: thumbnail, display and original. Left click on the thumbnail brings up the display photo, about 640 bits X 400 or so. A left click on the display photo brings up the photo in the original size you uploaded. Forget this one, except in rare cases which I cannot explain it cannot be cross linked.

Select the picture you want to share in The Forum, thumbnail or display.

Left click on the thumbnail to show the display version.

Right click on the picture.

Left click "Properties".

Highlight the Address [URL] and copy it.

Now go to The Forum and prepare your new message.
Write what you want as a preamble to your picture, then:

Below the message area is a button, "IMAGE". Left click it.

Paste the URL you copied above into the block displayed.
Note that the block contains http already highlighted. Just paste without doing any thing else so you don't get http twice.

Add anything else you wish to add after the picture is displayed.

Click on the "Display Message" button to confirm that what you want us to see will appear, then close the window.

Click the "Add Reply" button and standby for responses.

--Norm

[mower]

Thanks Norm!

I hope this works. I always thought that it was some type of voodoo magic that you guys got pitures to post on this thing. Here is a picture of my Venturer troop boy's finished kayaks.
Paul http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?url=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p7ec7f142aed5abe33545ddd33adec3b5/fcfda81f.jpg.orig.jpg&caption=kayaks%2 015&id=4244482079

[mower]

I must have done something wrong!

[NormMessinger]

Yes, I would say so. Now the quesion: Are my well-written, carefully-tested instructions wron?. Nah, couldn't be.

I managed to tease an image out of the several URL's that are mixed togeather in your posting. It should look like this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p7ec7f142aed5abe33545ddd33adec3b5/fcfda8 1f.jpg (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p7ec7f142aed5abe33545ddd33adec3b5/fcfda81f.jpg)

Which give this when you put the on either end like so:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid40/p7ec7f142aed5abe33545ddd33adec3b5/fcfda81f.jpg

And I might add is well worth the effort. That is one beatiful lineup of kayaks. Do I get my pick?

--Norm

[ 11-30-2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: NormMessinger ]

[LisaS]

Great job on those kayaks! I'm especially impressed that they were built by kids... Give them a pat on the back from me.

Lisa

[Ken B]

Great looking kayaks! I've been wanting to build one of the CLC 17 for years. These look great! That's the kind of project that makes for great Scouters one day. Question? How many C-clamps did you use to install all the cockpit combing?
Did you purchase the kits or plans only? How much do you save, kit/plans?

[Eric Sea Frog]

Originally posted by B. Darrah Thomas:
When I was a Boy Scout (20 Yr ago) we built these:
pdf format (http://www.troop37.net/Kayak_Plans-2000.pdf)
Took them on the Klamath for 7 days with the whole troop. A little more to build but great "Scout projects". :D I built one two years ago. Funny indeed, but she yaws and broaches in chop. Takes some water in thru the coaming. Generally I'm not a partisan of boat plans that don't have a forward stem.
Even when she's folded she's still a 10 or 12 footer.

[NormMessinger]

Talk of epoxy sensitization above brought forth this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p50c4de1d82dd0365687ebd8c4a7041dd/fcfa8578.jpg

Our friend Oyster is out of service for a few days due to epoxy sensitization, he says. Once ya get it it aint easy to get over it.

But to the scardy pants out there one must either have prolonged contact or be ultra sensitive. It isn't scary stuff given due precaution.

Well there I go editorializing on Mikes discomfort. I'll leave it to him to give details.

--Norm

[On Vacation]

Thanks Norm. The worse is skinned but uncured epoxy. The faster the hardener, the worse the skin irritation if you get it at all. We call it the silent killer. It will attack your liver if used in closed work areas. A good antidote is milk thisel[sp] to replenish your body funtions.

[PaulC]

Now that all of the proper boats have been offered/suggested, I was wondering if buried on someones hard drive was a copy of plans for a cardboard/blue poly tarp kayak? There was a scout website a couple of years ago which had plans for cutting and folding cardboard into a kayak "frame" and covering it with blue polytarp to provide a skin boat. (These are like the grip clip boat but with a cardboard frame.) The scouts had used these and had covered a good bit of water with them. How about it, anyone have a copy of these?
Thanks,
Paul

[Bruce Taylor]

Holy moly, Mike...you weren't kidding! Your face is pinker than my Diablo...and look what it's done to your eyebrows! :D

You should send that pic to Peter Spectre for On the Waterfront. He was asking for anecdotal stuff about epoxy sensitization.

[mower]

Ken:

To answer your questions, we probably used 15 - 20 clamps for each cockpit combing. It's like they always say "you can never have enough clamps". I asked each boy to rob all the clamps from his mother's quilting frames and his father's workshop and then we did the combings one at a time, to make the best use of the clamps.

We also used the plans, rather than kits. This served two purposes; one was to provide the boys with more opportunities to gain skills in building, and also to allow us to buy materials at cheaper prices. Part of our fund raising process was to solicit discounts from various material vendors. Windsor Plywoood, and Industial Formulators, both of B.C. were both very gracious in providing us with the plywood and epoxy respectively, at greatly reduced rates. Traditional fundraising is important, but don't overlook the skills that the boys learn in making presentations to managers of companies in trying to "sell" the value of their project. Additionally, using plans allows you to avoid spending so much cash at the beginning of the project.

We started our project after raising $150.00 sharpening scissors. That gave us enough money to buy the plans. We then built the bilding stands from scrap lumber and before I knew it, we were into the project too far to back out. From that point we raised funds and did presentations thoughout the following 8 months as the boats were being built. This appoach helped keep the boys motivated thoughout the project. In addition to the scissor sharpening, we also did lawn aerations, auctions, pie sales, etc. etc. etc. Good luck with you project.

Paul Mower

[dadadata]

There's also, FWIW, a Phil Bolger canoe-pirogue called "Yellowleaf". Very simple, almost disposable.

This site has some, a more sophisticated type:

http://www.emubo.com/e/boote/eph2/eph2.gif